Chuck Wagon Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 The problem I have with Tags vs Goodell is the way Goodell operates in a "gotcha" mindset. This went on all year, if not years. When Tags was commissioner, he would have dealt with it by going to Kraft, saying "we are watching this, you'd better cut it out" and that would be that. With Goodell, he's going to wait for everything to blow up in the media, let it spin out of control for a while, make the Patriots feel like "if this was a problem, why didn't you say something?", make every fan of other teams want their pound of flesh after hearing the nonstop media frenzy, then level a random and inconsistent punishment.
The Wiz Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 If the NFL doesn't drop the hammer on the Pats* they are sending the message that cheating is okay.I expect Eddie Guerrero to make the announcement on the punishment then.
dave mcbride Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 Belichick said in his interview that we, The Patriots*, tell the league to set them at the minimum 11,5 (and went as far to say maybe we will change that in future so this thing doesn't happen. Brady would know that. So anything after the original check would by definition be illegal and cheating. Remember this is after they were checked by the officials. That was an after-the-fact statement, and you seem to be suggesting that Brady had knowledge of what Belichick and management were apparently telling the league. Brady may well have had knowledge, but there is no evidence indicating this. As I said, there are a lot of holes that a good lawyer can poke open here. I know what YOU believe, Dog, and I know what I believe. But I also can see why there's enough room for doubt to lead to a fairly minor penalty for Brady. There is no equivalent of a Gregg Williams recording in which he urges his players to tear the ACL of Crabtree and more generally to take as many head shots as possible when in the pile.
BuffaloHokie13 Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 Just because Brady wanted balls deflated does not mean he wanted them underinflated. Also, while the report makes it clear that Brady knew Jastremski there is no evidence that Brady knew McNally. The report simply speculates that Brady knew McNally. Tell me, how do you bring someone up that you don't know? McNally: Tom sucks...im going make that next ball a ****in balloon Jastremski: Talked to him last night. He actually brought you up and said you must have a lot of stress trying to get them done...
papazoid Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 Here is the note from the (INDY) equipment manager to the NFL. It describes exactly what NFL investigators believe happened before the AFC title game: As far as the gameballs are concerned it is well known around the league that after the Patriots gameballs are checked by the officials and brought out for game usage the ballboys for the patriots will let out some air with a ball needle because their quarterback likes a smaller football so he can grip it better, it would be great if someone would be able to check the air in the game balls as the game goes on so that they don't get an illegal advantage. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/colts-sent-nfl-email-explaining-140416456.html
Pneumonic Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 Belichick said in his interview that we, The Patriots*, tell the league to set them at the minimum 12,5 (and went as far to say maybe we will change that in future so this thing doesn't happen. Brady would know that. So anything after the original check would by definition be illegal and cheating. Remember this is after they were checked by the officials. Keep in mind that the report suggests that the checking by officials, due to inaccurate gauges and the incompetency of those performing the test, was anything but trustworthy.
NoSaint Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 (edited) The problem I have with Tags vs Goodell is the way Goodell operates in a "gotcha" mindset. This went on all year, if not years. When Tags was commissioner, he would have dealt with it by going to Kraft, saying "we are watching this, you'd better cut it out" and that would be that. With Goodell, he's going to wait for everything to blow up in the media, let it spin out of control for a while, make the Patriots feel like "if this was a problem, why didn't you say something?", make every fan of other teams want their pound of flesh after hearing the nonstop media frenzy, then level a random and inconsistent punishment. and i think thats why a memo might be preferred here. the league hasnt shown to be the best at handling issues, and issues once the public gets involved.... while its joyous for the pats to get punished, as a fan of the NFL the better choice is likely to try and squash this in house before it blows up, unless you happen to catch something in the act. thats why i added the disclaimer to the sting comment previously that i dont mind them from an organization that has proven to have their ducks in a row, but im not sure the nfl is that organization. Edited May 7, 2015 by NoSaint
MattM Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 The problem I have with Tags vs Goodell is the way Goodell operates in a "gotcha" mindset. This went on all year, if not years. When Tags was commissioner, he would have dealt with it by going to Kraft, saying "we are watching this, you'd better cut it out" and that would be that. With Goodell, he's going to wait for everything to blow up in the media, let it spin out of control for a while, make the Patriots feel like "if this was a problem, why didn't you say something?", make every fan of other teams want their pound of flesh after hearing the nonstop media frenzy, then level a random and inconsistent punishment. But they did EXACTLY THAT in the Spygate case--they sent a memo saying "don't do this" and yet the Cheats* did exactly what they were told not to do. How many times do they get a pass on crap like this? Ridiculous. During Spygate two separate NFL Compet, Cttee members told the NYT that it was just the Patriots* being brought before them on rules violation allegations over and over....
Kelly the Dog Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 That was an after-the-fact statement, and you seem to be suggesting that Brady had knowledge of what Belichick and management were apparently telling the league. Brady may well have had knowledge, but there is no evidence indicating this. As I said, there are a lot of holes that a good lawyer can poke open here. I know what YOU believe, Dog, and I know what I believe. But I also can see why there's enough room for doubt to lead to a fairly minor penalty for Brady. There is no equivalent of a Gregg Williams recording in which he urges his players to tear the ACL of Crabtree and more generally to take as many head shots as possible when in the pile. If you or anyone anywhere wants to believe that Brady doesn't know what the balls are originally set at, when his team is the one that decides, and then tells his guys to deflate them right before the game, without knowing what they are, go ahead.
Dibs Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 My numerous Pats friends are in denial mode too, although one of the fair-minded ones (a corporate litigator at a leading firm and a peripheral follower) said something reasonable: "From what I can glean, the defense of Brady has to rest on the notion that he wanted balls deflated as close as possible to the legal minimum but that he never expressly told the equipment guys that it should be below the legal minimum." That makes sense, I think. As I said, I don't think this is an open-and-shut case. That is true - and indeed, it could be interpreted to read that Jastremski was a go-between between Brady and a guy he didn't know. Don't get me wrong - I think he's guilty. But there is some flimsiness in the report - which is why it signals "probably." That doesn't make sense. Brady stated in his press conference (from memory here) that he likes his balls at exactly the legal minimum.....and that he directs them to be inflated to that amount. If he stated he wanted the balls to be at the legal minimum then there would be no reason for deflating them after the refs had done their checks, and importantly no reason for all of the back and forth text conversations shown in the report regarding Brady wanting the balls deflated. Beyond reasonable doubt. Hell yes! He's guilty.
Lurker Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 I think that's as close as you can get to a defense. I said something similar a couple pages back. I think the only problem with that is that he did lie and he didn't cooperate with the leagues investigation. Which is a big no-no. Also Goodell set precedent with his "ignorance is not an excuse" statement during spygate, so just because Tom didn't know they were lowering below the limit shouldn't be an excuse, he was still asking them to do it and bribing them. All Brady had to say was... "I asked them to make sure the balls were as soft as was permissable. I never authorized them to go below 12.5 psi and so I can't explain why they were." Instead, he tried to cover it up and wouldn't turn over texts and phone records.
Pneumonic Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 Tell me, how do you bring someone up that you don't know? Ummm, "the dude who deflates the balls must be under a lot of stress"
Kelly the Dog Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 Keep in mind that the report suggests that the checking by officials, due to inaccurate gauges and the incompetency of those performing the test, was anything but trustworthy. I believe that. But that's not the issue. The issue is the Pats have the balls set at the minimum amount. That is their request. And then they deflate them after they are checked. That is what happened. It doesn't matter how they are sometimes incompetent. Look at the cc chart of the two teams.
dave mcbride Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 That doesn't make sense. Brady stated in his press conference (from memory here) that he likes his balls at exactly the legal minimum.....and that he directs them to be inflated to that amount. If he stated he wanted the balls to be at the legal minimum then there would be no reason for deflating them after the refs had done their checks, and importantly no reason for all of the back and forth text conversations shown in the report regarding Brady wanting the balls deflated. Beyond reasonable doubt. Hell yes! He's guilty. But then you have games like the Jets game where the balls were actually inflated ABOVE the limit. That appears to be an established fact, at least according to the report.
BuffaloHokie13 Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 Keep in mind that the report suggests that the checking by officials, due to inaccurate gauges and the incompetency of those performing the test, was anything but trustworthy. Did you even read the report? In addition, Exponent found that the gauges used on the day of the AFC Championship Game appear to have worked reliably and consistently. Exponent further concluded that the difference in the pressure drops between the teams was not caused by a malfunction of either gauge or by “human factors” (i.e., variability caused by the particular individual who used the gauge). (Pages 10 and 11)
Kelly the Dog Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 All Brady had to say was... "I asked them to make sure the balls were as soft as was permissable. I never authorized them to go below 12.5 psi and so I can't explain why they were." Instead, he tried to cover it up and wouldn't turn over texts and phone records. Exactly. Belichick and Brady both said it. By definition Brady knew it was illegal. But then you have games like the Jets game where the balls were actually inflated ABOVE the limit. That appears to be an established fact, at least according to the report. Look at the chart of the two teams side by side.
GG Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 That is true - and indeed, it could be interpreted to read that Jastremski was a go-between between Brady and a guy he didn't know. Don't get me wrong - I think he's guilty. But there is some flimsiness in the report - which is why it signals "probably." No one is asking exactly what McNally meant when he texted "I haven't gone to ESPN, yet." Certainly seems to be a lot more smoke down that alley if he has info, especially since he was getting shoes & jerseys from Jastremski, indirectly from Brady? or not? I'm just waiting for someone in the organization to start spilling more tidbits about the true Patriot* ways.
dave mcbride Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 If you or anyone anywhere wants to believe that Brady doesn't know what the balls are originally set at, when his team is the one that decides, and then tells his guys to deflate them right before the game, without knowing what they are, go ahead. You don't seem capable of taking yourself out of yourself, so to speak. I think he's guilty, but if I admit to myself that I don't know exactly what's going on in Tom Brady's mind -- and while I think I have an idea, I really don't -- I have to conclude that the case against him is fairly strong but hardly airtight.
NoSaint Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 I believe that. But that's not the issue. The issue is the Pats have the balls set at the minimum amount. That is their request. And then they deflate them after they are checked. That is what happened. It doesn't matter how they are sometimes incompetent. Look at the cc chart of the two teams. this ones simply devils advocate, but if the testing tools are inaccurate regularly then saying get them to the lowest the refs would approve could be lower or higher than the actual limit. that doesnt mean that they should alter them after though.
dave mcbride Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 Exactly. Belichick and Brady both said it. By definition Brady knew it was illegal. Look at the chart of the two teams side by side. One game. I don't deny that one. What about the Jets game?
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