Pneumonic Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 I believe that. But that's not the issue. The issue is the Pats have the balls set at the minimum amount. That is their request. And then they deflate them after they are checked. That is what happened. It doesn't matter how they are sometimes incompetent. Look at the cc chart of the two teams. I did not read this as such in the report. As an aside, if this happened as you claim in the AFCCG then the PSI of the balls would have appreciably lower then they were checked in at. The temp and atmospheric conditions were such that the could explain the full under pressure condition on its own.
ko12010 Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 (edited) That doesn't make sense. Brady stated in his press conference (from memory here) that he likes his balls at exactly the legal minimum.....and that he directs them to be inflated to that amount. If he stated he wanted the balls to be at the legal minimum then there would be no reason for deflating them after the refs had done their checks, and importantly no reason for all of the back and forth text conversations shown in the report regarding Brady wanting the balls deflated. Beyond reasonable doubt. Hell yes! He's guilty. In non criminal proceedings it only has to be more probable than not, not beyond reasonable doubt, which I think the report clearly shows. Edited May 7, 2015 by ko12010
Pneumonic Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 Did you even read the report? Yet the officials can't even get all 4 of the Colts tested balls done correct? The report was slanted to find ways to blame the Pats.
Kelly the Dog Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 You don't seem capable of taking yourself out of yourself, so to speak. I think he's guilty, but if I admit to myself that I don't know exactly what's going on in Tom Brady's mind -- and while I think I have an idea, I really don't -- I have to conclude that the case against him is fairly strong but hardly airtight. I'm very capable and do it all the time. I'm applying common sense to facts in this particular specific instance. There is no way Brady doesn't know what the balls are set at. No way. He admits it. Belichick admits it. He is the one obsessive about what it feels like. There is simply no chance that he doesn't know. The officials are asked to set the balls at the desired inflation by the Pats. That's a fact. Then and only then do his guys let some out. It's in arguable that is below the legal limit. That's not even an opinion. It's math.
stevewin Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 (edited) Pretty good summary of why Brady will likely miss games: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/07/suspension-of-tom-brady-seems-unavoidable/ One popular theory/rationalization that has emerged in the wake of this news is that Brady may have had private information that he didn’t want Wells and his team of investigators to see. But the Wells report explains that “we offered to allow Brady’s counsel to screen and control the production so that it would be limited strictly to responsive materials and would not involve our taking possession of Brady’s telephone or other electronic devices.” This is crazy to me. "You don't have to give us your phone, just go through your texts and give us what you want". Why in the world wouldn't they just "cooperate" and say - "OK, we went through it and there's nothing there". Or why wouldn't Brady just erase everything, then show his counsel "See - nothing here". I'm surprised the Marrones didn't just erase all the relevant texts and say the same thing "Nothing here". It's amazing to me really * edit * Although I guess for the Marrones they might have seen that they would be set up as the fall gyys - rougue agents acting alone, so it was in their best interest ultimately to show they were doing the bidding of Tommy Trickster Edited May 7, 2015 by stevewin
Kelly the Dog Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 I did not read this as such in the report. As an aside, if this happened as you claim in the AFCCG then the PSI of the balls would have appreciably lower then they were checked in at. The temp and atmospheric conditions were such that the could explain the full under pressure condition on its own. Look at the chart and the Colts balls. They went down fractions. The Pats balls plummeted.
Dibs Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 But then you have games like the Jets game where the balls were actually inflated ABOVE the limit. That appears to be an established fact, at least according to the report. That has no relevance to the concept that it has been determined that the two chuckleheads at the Patriots illegally deflated balls after the refs checked them.....that those two guys had regular conversations via text implicating Brady as the instigator in the conspiracy....and that Brady denied all knowledge of the deflated balls. Unless one is willing to believe that the two guys not only took it upon themselves to cheat, but to also have a long term plan in place that would frame Brady if they ever got caught (and logically, if they were going to think ahead and plan something as elaborate as that, why wouldn't they communicate via burner phones so as to not get caught in the first place?), then there is no doubts as to Brady's guilt. In non criminal proceedings it only has to be more probable than not, not beyond reasonable doubt, which I think the report clearly shows. It clearly shows beyond reasonable doubt.
dave mcbride Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 I'm very capable and do it all the time. I'm applying common sense to facts in this particular specific instance. There is no way Brady doesn't know what the balls are set at. No way. He admits it. Belichick admits it. He is the one obsessive about what it feels like. There is simply no chance that he doesn't know. The officials are asked to set the balls at the desired inflation by the Pats. That's a fact. Then and only then do his guys let some out. It's in arguable that is below the legal limit. That's not even an opinion. It's math. Can you point me to a quote from Brady that substantiates this inference? "Belichick said in his interview that we, The Patriots*, tell the league to set them at the minimum 12,5 (and went as far to say maybe we will change that in future so this thing doesn't happen. Brady would know that."
Pneumonic Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 I'm very capable and do it all the time. I'm applying common sense to facts in this particular specific instance. There is no way Brady doesn't know what the balls are set at. No way. He admits it. Belichick admits it. He is the one obsessive about what it feels like. There is simply no chance that he doesn't know. The officials are asked to set the balls at the desired inflation by the Pats. That's a fact. Then and only then do his guys let some out. It's in arguable that is below the legal limit. That's not even an opinion. It's math. Speaking of math ..... the math clearly shows that no guys were needed to lessen the PSI to below the legal limit; grade 10 physics, applied to mother nature conditions, assured this as so.
Kelly the Dog Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 One game. I don't deny that one. What about the Jets game? I haven't discussed the Jets game. Not sure what happened at all. I only spoke to whether he knew it was illegal.
plenzmd1 Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 Speaking of math ..... the math clearly shows that no guys were needed to lessen the PSI to below the legal limit; grade 10 physics, applied to mother nature conditions, assured this as so. Pneumonic, you really need to read this dissection of the report by the guys at 538. Explains clearly how " science" can not explain the drops. Please read, and then comment I believe there may be ares where Pats fans can attack the veracity of this report, possibly, but I believe the whole " science" thing is not one. http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/fivethirtyeight-dissects-the-deflategate-report/
dave mcbride Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 (edited) That has no relevance to the concept that it has been determined that the two chuckleheads at the Patriots illegally deflated balls after the refs checked them.....that those two guys had regular conversations via text implicating Brady as the instigator in the conspiracy....and that Brady denied all knowledge of the deflated balls. Unless one is willing to believe that the two guys not only took it upon themselves to cheat, but to also have a long term plan in place that would frame Brady if they ever got caught (and logically, if they were going to think ahead and plan something as elaborate as that, why wouldn't they communicate via burner phones so as to not get caught in the first place?), then there is no doubts as to Brady's guilt. It clearly shows beyond reasonable doubt. Many of you seem to be thinking that I have doubts about Brady's guilt. I don't. I'm just saying that there is room for doubt. What is most interesting to me is the PFT point about Brady's failure to cooperate being grounds for suspension because it violates the league integrity clause in the NFLPA's contract with the league. That DOES seem open-and-shut to me: 'For Brady, there’s another problem; he refused to fully cooperate with the investigation. As the NFL’s Policy on Integrity of the Game & Enforcement of Competitive Rules states, “Failure to cooperate in an investigation shall be considered conduct detrimental to the League and will subject the offending club and responsible individual(s) to appropriate discipline.”' Edited May 7, 2015 by dave mcbride
Kelly the Dog Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 Can you point me to a quote from Brady that substantiates this inference? "Belichick said in his interview that we, The Patriots*, tell the league to set them at the minimum 12,5 (and went as far to say maybe we will change that in future so this thing doesn't happen. Brady would know that."Q: A few years ago you said you liked the ball deflated. You were quoted saying you like throwing a deflated ball. Explain that comment in the context of what you’re dealing with this week. TB: I obviously read that I said that. I like them at the way that I like them, which is at 12.5. To me, that’s a perfect grip for the football. I think that particular term, deflated or inflated, whatever norm you’re using, you could probably use. I would never do anything outside of the rules of play. I would never have someone do something that I thought was outside the rules.
dave mcbride Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 Q: A few years ago you said you liked the ball deflated. You were quoted saying you like throwing a deflated ball. Explain that comment in the context of what you’re dealing with this week. TB: I obviously read that I said that. I like them at the way that I like them, which is at 12.5. To me, that’s a perfect grip for the football. I think that particular term, deflated or inflated, whatever norm you’re using, you could probably use. I would never do anything outside of the rules of play. I would never have someone do something that I thought was outside the rules. He says nothing about them being set at that level beforehand and established as such to the team! I saw that too. I think you're grasping at straws here, although again I think he's 100 percent guilty. This is worth a read: http://mmqb.si.com/2015/05/07/ted-wells-deflategate-tom-brady-patriots-nfl/ .
Kelly the Dog Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 He says nothing about them being set at that level beforehand and established as such to the team! I saw that too. I think you're grasping at straws here, although again I think he's 100 percent guilty. This is worth a read: http://mmqb.si.com/2015/05/07/ted-wells-deflategate-tom-brady-patriots-nfl/ . That's the rule Dave. You tell the officials what you want them set at.
stevewin Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 He says nothing about them being set at that level beforehand and established as such to the team! I saw that too. I think you're grasping at straws here, although again I think he's 100 percent guilty. This is worth a read: http://mmqb.si.com/2015/05/07/ted-wells-deflategate-tom-brady-patriots-nfl/ . If Goodell hands down a suspension or heavy fine, it will forever mark Brady as a cheater in the eyes of the NFL. WTF - didn't Spygate already cement that legacy
NoSaint Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 WTF - didn't Spygate already cement that legacy i do not think that people put spy gate on brady, but instead of BB.
dave mcbride Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 That's the rule Dave. You tell the officials what you want them set at. check out the Peter King piece - I think it's a reasonable take on the situation.
Kelly the Dog Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 He says nothing about them being set at that level beforehand and established as such to the team! I saw that too. I think you're grasping at straws here, although again I think he's 100 percent guilty. This is worth a read: http://mmqb.si.com/2015/05/07/ted-wells-deflategate-tom-brady-patriots-nfl/ . Your link you provided even says it. The Pats balls were to be set at 12.5. The Colts at 13.0check out the Peter King piece - I think it's a reasonable take on the situation. I just did and it proved what I said. The Pats balls were asked to be set at 12.5. The Colts at 13.0
Pneumonic Posted May 7, 2015 Posted May 7, 2015 Pneumonic, you really need to read this dissection of the report by the guys at 538. Explains clearly how " science" can not explain the drops. Please read, and then comment I believe there may be ares where Pats fans can attack the veracity of this report, possibly, but I believe the whole " science" thing is not one. http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/fivethirtyeight-dissects-the-deflategate-report/ I read the report. BTW, I am an EE and studied science Ad nauseam. BTW, I did a science breakdown on this matter in the "New England Patriots caught deflating balls" thread some time ago if you wish to see the math involved. As for the report, the issue with it that nullifies the validity of its scientific (used very loosely) conclusion is the small sample size of the Colts (4) footballs. I could easily chose a different 4 of the 11 Pats measurements and come to the conclusion that the drops are similar.
Recommended Posts