YoloinOhio Posted May 4, 2015 Author Posted May 4, 2015 (edited) They acquired two. One was a pro bowler. One has four years experience and a different skill set. And likely better than anyone they could have drafted after the second round. They have to get a franchise qb. Obviously. Drafting a 50 or 100 to 1 shot and then having to cut the 10 to 1 shot is not the way to do it.TT signing is just like drafting a guy in the 5th or 6th rd, he's like 24 or 25. And already has a few years of pro film sessions and TC under his belt. I'm guessing polian didn't know they had him tbh. If they had signed only the vet Cassell and taken Hundley would he have felt better? Kind of ridiculous. Edited May 4, 2015 by YoloinOhio
Kelly the Dog Posted May 4, 2015 Posted May 4, 2015 TT signing is just like drafting a guy in the 6th rd, hes like 24 or 25. And has a few years of pro film sessions and TC under his belt. I would say second or third round because of those things. But most second and third round guys don't make it.
dave mcbride Posted May 4, 2015 Posted May 4, 2015 (edited) In other words they are wasted picks! You can't say it's a plus that a guy taken in the fourth round of one year is traded for a third round pick a year later. Those things are exactly equal. How is that a good pick. Hasselback later turned out to be a good QB but not for them as was not the main part of the trade, their #1 pick was. Brunel was a 5th rounder which brought a third rounder a year later (and again you lose a round for the year you don't have the guy. So wow, that was a huge haul? The fact is none of them got them much and none of them did a thing for them. Not to mention this was all 15-20 years ago. Yes Wolf is great and better than what we had. But you can't just say he's better and prove it with something that didn't work out for them. I'm not just supporting the Bills and the way they have handled Quarterbacks. It's been abysmal. But I do know that drafting QBs in the third round and later never works. Once in 20 years. Russell Wilson doesn't count. This is just flat out wrong: Here's a list of third-round-and-later QB picks who have done at least OK in the last couple of decades. Also, don't try and discount the results through sophistry -- i.e., saying that these players succeeded on teams different than the ones who drafted them. And Russell Wilson most certainly does count. Mark Brunell (3 pro bowls) Matt Hasselback (3 pro bowls) Rich Gannon (4 pro bowls; 1 MVP) Matt Schaub (2 pro bowls) Trent Green (2 pro bowls) Brad Johnson (2 pro bowls) Jeff Blake (2 good years; one pro bowl) Tom Brady Russell Wilson Kurt Warner (yes, he counts) Tony Romo (he counts too) Chris Chandler (two pro bowls) Jeff Garcia (4 pro bowls) Marc Bulger (2 pro bowls) David Garrard (1 pro bowl; lifetime rating of 85.8) Jake Delhomme (1 pro bowl; team went 56-40 when he started) Jeff Hostetler (1 pro bowl; team went 51-32 when he started; super bowl MVP) Matt Cassel (1 pro bowl; two very good seasons) Doug Flutie I'm sure there are others. I didn't go back too far. Edited May 4, 2015 by dave mcbride
Nanker Posted May 4, 2015 Posted May 4, 2015 Seems an easy decision to me. You want a franchise QB - draft him. If you don't, shut the piehole and live with what you got. I'd draft one every year until I got a good one. They should have this year. So here's what the Pats* have done since 1990. On average they draft a QB every other year. But of those 13 QBs they drafter - they've "developed" only one... Marcia. Bledsoe was a starter from the get-go. Hey, look on the bright side. We've got one of their developmental QBs on our roster now. Feel better? 1990 Tom Hodson 3rd Round 1991 Scott Zolak 4th Round 1992 Buppkiss in the 99th Round 1993 Drew Bledsomuch 1st Round 1st pick overall 1994 Jay Walker 7th Round 1995 Buppkiss in the 99th Round 1996 Buppkiss in the 99th Round 1997 Buppkiss in the 99th Round 1998 Buppkiss in the 99th Round 1999 Michael Bishop 7th Round 2000 Marcia Brady 6th Round 2001 Buppkiss in the 99th Round 2002 Rohan Davey 4th Round 2003 Kliff Kingsbury 6th Round 2004 Buppkiss in the 99th Round 2005 Matt Cassel 7th Round (now where have I heard that name before?) 2006 Buppkiss in the 99th Round 2007 Buppkiss in the 99th Round 2008 Kevin O’Connell 3rd Round 2009 Buppkiss in the 99th Round 2010 Zac Robinson – their FOURTH and LAST 7th Round Pick 2011 Ryan Mallett 3rd Round 2012 Buppkiss in the 99th Round 2013 Buppkiss in the 99th Round 2014 Jimmy Garoppolo 2nd Round 2015 Buppkiss in the 99th Round
zow2 Posted May 4, 2015 Posted May 4, 2015 I have to agree with 'ol Bill on this one. I really liked Bryce Petty and it kinda' sickens me that we passed on him twice and the Jets got him. It's only my opinion but i think Petty will be the starter there by late season and he will be a solid pro QB. I don't get why Bills management are the only ones that can't seem to draft a solid developmental QB? Either they overreach for an EJ in round 1 or they draft someone in round 7 or an UDFA who you know will never have a fair chance. Some of these round 3-4 guys turn out good.
Kelly the Dog Posted May 4, 2015 Posted May 4, 2015 This is just flat out wrong: Here's a list of third-round-and-later QB picks who have done at least OK in the last couple of decades (also don't try and discount the results through sophistry -- i.e., saying that these players succeeded on teams different than the ones who drafted them): Mark Brunell (3 pro bowls) Matt Hasselback (3 pro bowls) Rich Gannon (4 pro bowls; 1 MVP) Matt Schaub (2 pro bowls) Trent Green (2 pro bowls) Brad Johnson (2 pro bowls) Jeff Blake (2 good years; one pro bowl) Tom Brady Russell Wilson Kurt Warner (yes, he counts) Tony Romo (he counts too) Chris Chandler (two pro bowls) Jeff Garcia (4 pro bowls) Marc Bulger (2 pro bowls) David Garrard (1 pro bowl; lifetime rating of 85.8) Jake Delhomme (1 pro bowl; team went 56-40 when he started) I'm sure there are others. I didn't go back too far. In other words one Shaub in the last 15-20 years. Wilson doesn't count because of his extreme circumstances that is likely never to happen again. It's outrageous to say it's sophistry and not include players that did it on other teams because IT'S THE DRAFT. I didnt say don't sign guys in free agency that have been drafted later. These guys take years and years to get it. You cannot play them for five years of being crappie so their sixth year they blossom.
dave mcbride Posted May 4, 2015 Posted May 4, 2015 (edited) So here's what the Pats* have done since 1990. On average they draft a QB every other year. But of those 13 QBs they drafter - they've "developed" only one... Marcia. Bledsoe was a starter from the get-go. Hey, look on the bright side. We've got one of their developmental QBs on our roster now. Feel better? And the year they lost Brady one of those picks came in and did very well -- better than any Bills QB since Doug Flutie's 1998 season. In other words one Shaub in the last 15-20 years. Wilson doesn't count because of his extreme circumstances that is likely never to happen again. It's outrageous to say it's sophistry and not include players that did it on other teams because IT'S THE DRAFT. I didnt say don't sign guys in free agency that have been drafted later. These guys take years and years to get it. You cannot play them for five years of being crappie so their sixth year they blossom. Saying Wilson doesn't count is just laughable, dog. He was drafted in the third round. And can you just admit that you were wrong about none of the guys drafted in the third round and after ever succeeding?? Edited May 4, 2015 by dave mcbride
HT02 Posted May 4, 2015 Posted May 4, 2015 2013 -- drafted EJ Manuel in 1st round 2014 -- signed Kyle Orton to be veteran backup/stopgap starter 2015 -- signed Matt Cassell and Tyrod Taylor to compete with Manuel That's not a decade, but over the last three seasons it seems to me they definitely have a concerted strategy to improve at QB. I don't think those transactions demonstrate enough of a commitment to solving the problem given the value of the QB position in today's NFL. If Manuel were a "can't miss" prospect like Luck, RG3 or Newton then that might have been sufficient but EJ came into the league with serious question marks and was viewed by most analysts as a reach pick, Given his struggles in year one, his lack of progress in year two and questionable value entering year three Whaley should have added at least one draft pick in addition to Taylor and Cassell to the mix. My gut feeling is he still believes in EJ and remains desperate to give him every chance to win the starting job.
John from Riverside Posted May 4, 2015 Posted May 4, 2015 I have to agree with 'ol Bill on this one. I really liked Bryce Petty and it kinda' sickens me that we passed on him twice and the Jets got him. It's only my opinion but i think Petty will be the starter there by late season and he will be a solid pro QB. I don't get why Bills management are the only ones that can't seem to draft a solid developmental QB? Either they overreach for an EJ in round 1 or they draft someone in round 7 or an UDFA who you know will never have a fair chance. Some of these round 3-4 guys turn out good. I was watching a lot of Petty film before the draft especially after the reports that bills brass went to meet him..... - One thing that I immediately dont like is his accuracy and decision making drop way off under pressure.......when he has time he throws a very pretty ball......but that bothered me.....it screamed "this guy is gonna take a while" That made me cool with not taking one.....when Tyrod Taylor is making Rex Ryan's face light up in interviews....then you know they have their QBs already in the stable for this year
Kelly the Dog Posted May 4, 2015 Posted May 4, 2015 And the year they lost Brady one of those picks came in and did very well -- better than any Bills QB since Doug Flutie's 1998 season. Saying Wilson doesn't count is just laughable, dog. He was drafted in the third round. And can you just admit that you were wrong about none of the guys drafted in the third round and after ever succeeding?? Since he started playing I have said on here that he doesn't count and he is a fluke because of the circumstances. I have probably posted it over 25 times. That doesn't make it right (although it is right), only that I didn't come up with that theory to disprove your thesis. Russell Wilson would have been the best QB prospect not named Andrew Luck ever if he were taller. Every scout and GM thought he was a tremendous player and every scout and GM thought his height would kill him in the pros, it was simply a matter of how much it would hurt him. He excelled in all 25 other factors you look for in a QB. In the year that RG3 was supposed to have played one of the best seasons ever, Wilson was rated just above Rg3. That is never going to happen again. He wasn't overlooked like these other guys. Or blossom. Or fall through the cracks. He was a better QB already than 99 of 100 first round Qbs. He was just short. And it blew everyone away that it didn't hurt him in the NFL because he was so good, so smart, knew the passing lanes, could avoid the rush, etc. He was not a third round pick. He doesn't count. The league has also changed as you know in the last 10-15 years. In a huge way. When I say they don't exist I'm not considering what happened 20 years ago.
Green Lightning Posted May 4, 2015 Posted May 4, 2015 (edited) So here's what the Pats* have done since 1990. On average they draft a QB every other year. But of those 13 QBs they drafter - they've "developed" only one... Marcia. Bledsoe was a starter from the get-go. Hey, look on the bright side. We've got one of their developmental QBs on our roster now. Feel better? To quote TO, "No not really." The Pats have Marcia and still have been more active in drafting QB's than us. And if they did't have Marcia, old Billy would be more active still. I would ask DW to treat QB's like he does CBs & RBs and draft them until one clicks. And don't worry about having too many. Trading competent back-ups and phenoms seems to draw absurd values. Edited May 4, 2015 by Green Lightning
Lurker Posted May 4, 2015 Posted May 4, 2015 Every scout and GM thought he was a tremendous player and every scout and GM thought his height would kill him in the pros, it was simply a matter of how much it would hurt him. http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/russell-wilson?id=2532975 "Wilson is this year's big-time question mark at quarterback. Unlike those who have held this title in the past, Wilson is a stellar passer who shows arm strength and accuracy when he is able to deliver the ball without a hitch. A transfer from North Carolina St. over the summer, he has outstanding football intelligence as he picked up the Wisconsin offense in a short time and was the opening-day starter. However, at his height teams will have concerns whether or not he can see to make the throws at the next level. He is a mechanical mover who has strong technique and leadership qualities. If Wilson were three inches taller there would be debate at the top of the draft as to where he fits in, but look for teams to take a flier on him in late rounds to see if he can develop and outplay his size."
birdog1960 Posted May 4, 2015 Posted May 4, 2015 So here's what the Pats* have done since 1990. On average they draft a QB every other year. But of those 13 QBs they drafter - they've "developed" only one... Marcia. Bledsoe was a starter from the get-go. Hey, look on the bright side. We've got one of their developmental QBs on our roster now. Feel better? 1990 Tom Hodson 3rd Round 1991 Scott Zolak 4th Round 1992 Buppkiss in the 99th Round 1993 Drew Bledsomuch 1st Round 1st pick overall 1994 Jay Walker 7th Round 1995 Buppkiss in the 99th Round 1996 Buppkiss in the 99th Round 1997 Buppkiss in the 99th Round 1998 Buppkiss in the 99th Round 1999 Michael Bishop 7th Round 2000 Marcia Brady 6th Round 2001 Buppkiss in the 99th Round 2002 Rohan Davey 4th Round 2003 Kliff Kingsbury 6th Round 2004 Buppkiss in the 99th Round 2005 Matt Cassel 7th Round (now where have I heard that name before?) 2006 Buppkiss in the 99th Round 2007 Buppkiss in the 99th Round 2008 Kevin O’Connell 3rd Round 2009 Buppkiss in the 99th Round 2010 Zac Robinson – their FOURTH and LAST 7th Round Pick 2011 Ryan Mallett 3rd Round 2012 Buppkiss in the 99th Round 2013 Buppkiss in the 99th Round 2014 Jimmy Garoppolo 2nd Round 2015 Buppkiss in the 99th Round so now we have polian and belicheck as accolytes of the draft qb's often philosophy. on the other side we seem to have whaley. just wondering what compells you to choose one strategy over another.
Lurker Posted May 4, 2015 Posted May 4, 2015 just wondering what compells you to choose one strategy over another. As the above list suggests....results.
JohnC Posted May 4, 2015 Posted May 4, 2015 You both make rational arguments, but, too often, as fans we tend to rationalize our team's actions. The QB position is too important to ignore the draft as a source for the next franchise guy. As for EJ, yeah he should be developed and given a chance, then why didn't he play the last 2 games last year when the Bills were eliminated from the playoffs ? I wanted the Bills to trade back into the 4th round and take Petty or Hundley. The qb I was eyeing was Hundley. He would have been a good developmental qb taken at a reasonable spot, fourth round. Whaley's trade for Brown last year in which he gave up a fourth round pick for a player who barely played didn't come close to paying off. Trading up is a good strategy but that isn't an easy task if you don't have trade partners. The primary reason why DM didn't play EJ even when his team was out of the playoffs is because he was pursuing the maximum number of wins over developing a young qb he had no faith in. Many people criticize him for that while I don't. The former HC made a decision very early on that EJ at that point was not ready to play and would probably not ever be a credible starter in this league. While most people are critical of his early judgment on his young qb I'm not.
dave mcbride Posted May 4, 2015 Posted May 4, 2015 (edited) Since he started playing I have said on here that he doesn't count and he is a fluke because of the circumstances. I have probably posted it over 25 times. That doesn't make it right (although it is right), only that I didn't come up with that theory to disprove your thesis. Russell Wilson would have been the best QB prospect not named Andrew Luck ever if he were taller. Every scout and GM thought he was a tremendous player and every scout and GM thought his height would kill him in the pros, it was simply a matter of how much it would hurt him. He excelled in all 25 other factors you look for in a QB. In the year that RG3 was supposed to have played one of the best seasons ever, Wilson was rated just above Rg3. That is never going to happen again. He wasn't overlooked like these other guys. Or blossom. Or fall through the cracks. He was a better QB already than 99 of 100 first round Qbs. He was just short. And it blew everyone away that it didn't hurt him in the NFL because he was so good, so smart, knew the passing lanes, could avoid the rush, etc. He was not a third round pick. He doesn't count. The league has also changed as you know in the last 10-15 years. In a huge way. When I say they don't exist I'm not considering what happened 20 years ago. It's not right. He was drafted in the third round. It's an actual fact. Just because you personally think he's a fluke is irrelevant. Edited May 4, 2015 by dave mcbride
Lurker Posted May 4, 2015 Posted May 4, 2015 It's not right. He was drafted in the third round. It's an actual fact. Just because you personally think he's a fluke is irrelevant. So, what's your take on this? http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/178106-polian-critical-of-bills-not-drafting-a-qb/?p=3548003
dave mcbride Posted May 4, 2015 Posted May 4, 2015 (edited) So, what's your take on this? http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/178106-polian-critical-of-bills-not-drafting-a-qb/?p=3548003 Great link, but honestly I can't say. I remember that draft; no one seemed to be saying he was going to go early. During his final season, everyone seemed to like him but said he was small. So few QBs pan out that I had no great expectations. But I hardly ever watched Wisconsin and wasn't in a position to judge. I remember reading this story in August 2011: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/28/sports/ncaafootball/new-quarterback-puts-wisconsin-on-target-for-title-run.html?_r=0 . Edited May 4, 2015 by dave mcbride
Nanker Posted May 4, 2015 Posted May 4, 2015 (edited) so now we have polian and belicheck as accolytes of the draft qb's often philosophy. on the other side we seem to have whaley. just wondering what compells you to choose one strategy over another. So which of these guys would you have wanted The Bills to pick? 1990 Tom Hodson 3rd Round 1991 Scott Zolak 4th Round 1993 Drew Bledsomuch 1st Round 1st pick overall 1994 Jay Walker 7th Round 1999 Michael Bishop 7th Round 2000 Marcia Brady 6th Round 2002 Rohan Davey 4th Round 2003 Kliff Kingsbury 6th Round 2005 Matt Cassel 7th Round (now where have I heard that name before?) 2008 Kevin O’Connell 3rd Round 2010 Zac Robinson – their FOURTH and LAST 7th Round Pick 2011 Ryan Mallett 3rd Round 2014 Jimmy Garoppolo 2nd Round Oh... I KNOW! I KNOW! I've got the answer to this one!!! Drew Bledsoe and Marcia Brady! Okay you geniuses - We had Drew and he shat the bed. We've got Cassel now too. So what are these guys' records in the NFL? NewenGland* drafted a **** load of bad-azz "development" QBs... to what end? 1990 Tom Hodson 3rd Round 1991 Scott Zolak 4th Round 1994 Jay Walker 7th Round 1999 Michael Bishop 7th Round 2002 Rohan Davey 4th Round 2003 Kliff Kingsbury 6th Round 2008 Kevin O’Connell 3rd Round 2010 Zac Robinson – their FOURTH and LAST 7th Round Pick 2011 Ryan Mallett 3rd Round 2014 Jimmy Garoppolo 2nd Round Edited May 4, 2015 by Nanker
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