Don't Sleep on Goodwin

[26CornerBlitz]

@buffalobills

"It's great for our room, camaraderie and the team." What @flashg88dwin is so big on in 2015: http://bufbills.co/chZCWO

[Dorkington]

This is where some of the debate comes in. Do you keep a guy that does a lot of things okay (Hogan) or a guy that does 1 thing exceptionally well (Goodwin, Easley)? If you are talking about a guy playing >10 snaps a game who will have the bigger impact?

 

It really depends on how Rex and Roman view the roster. This goes without factoring in a potential acquisition of a big bodied receiver which also could happen. It will be interesting to see how Whaley and company select the roster and how the coaching staff uses them.

 

I suspect that this staff will use player's much better than the last staff. I thought that along with offensive play calling that was what they were worst at. They didn't put guys in position to do what they did best (ie run Spiller between the tackles until he pukes).

 

 

 

Good point.

 

If they don't trade Goodwin this weekend (and I think it's a long shot they will / are even trying to), I can see Hogan getting cut in camp. I'm not sure it's likely, but it's becoming more probable. Easley is a lock and they'll have four more active on game day (Watkins, Woods, Harvin, Goodwin/UFA addition) along with 3 TEs. Hogan could take that last spot, but I think that will only happen if he contributes on teams more than he did last year.

Unfortunately for Goodwin, Hogan has proven himself a more capable player so far. Goodwin has some major talent, he's damned fast, seems to run routes ok (when he was allowed to) and has solid hands... BUT he can't stay on the field. Hogan is a crisp route runner, durable as hell, and also has solid hands. It might come down to who can provide the most value for special teams considering we have three WRs on the roster that'd go ahead of either on the depth chart.

[YoloinOhio]

VH1 Behind the Music narrator: things went downhill when Marquise mentioned sickle cell in a tweet

that is really funny

[Kirby Jackson]

 

 

Unfortunately for Goodwin, Hogan has proven himself a more capable player so far. Goodwin has some major talent, he's damned fast, seems to run routes ok (when he was allowed to) and has solid hands... BUT he can't stay on the field. Hogan is a crisp route runner, durable as hell, and also has solid hands. It might come down to who can provide the most value for special teams considering we have three WRs on the roster that'd go ahead of either on the depth chart.

That's the exact point. Hogan does a lot of things pretty well. He would certainly be more valuable if you are talking about the guy playing all of the time. He is at best the 4th WR on the depth chart now and the 5th guy to be active on game days. With Charles Clay in the fold, how often are 4 WR going to be on the field at once? I think that it is certainly less than 10 snaps per game. Who will make a bigger impact in those 10 snaps? That has to come into play here. It is about complimentary skill sets. The Bills have Woods, Clay, McCoy and Watkins to run the possession type of routes. The dimension that Goodwin offers is different (as is the dimension that Dez Lewis offers). Don't underestimate the importance of the fit. It is about assembling 53 puzzle pieces.

 

The ST angle is overrated at this point IMO (for all of these guys). That is because the Bills have SO many good ST players that being a pretty good coverage guy isn't going to be a deciding factor. That is why Larry Dean is gone. Hogan is a pretty good ST player but he is not better than Easley, Boobie, Karlos Williams, Carrington, Graham, Brooks or maybe even Randall Johnson.

 

It really isn't a matter of which is a better WR. It is a matter of which player will have the biggest impact on this team?

[FireChan]

That's the exact point. Hogan does a lot of things pretty well. He would certainly be more valuable if you are talking about the guy playing all of the time. He is at best the 4th WR on the depth chart now and the 5th guy to be active on game days. With Charles Clay in the fold, how often are 4 WR going to be on the field at once? I think that it is certainly less than 10 snaps per game. Who will make a bigger impact in those 10 snaps? That has to come into play here. It is about complimentary skill sets. The Bills have Woods, Clay, McCoy and Watkins to run the possession type of routes. The dimension that Goodwin offers is different (as is the dimension that Dez Lewis offers). Don't underestimate the importance of the fit. It is about assembling 53 puzzle pieces.

 

The ST angle is overrated at this point IMO (for all of these guys). That is because the Bills have SO many good ST players that being a pretty good coverage guy isn't going to be a deciding factor. That is why Larry Dean is gone. Hogan is a pretty good ST player but he is not better than Easley, Boobie, Karlos Williams, Carrington, Graham, Brooks or maybe even Randall Johnson.

 

It really isn't a matter of which is a better WR. It is a matter of which player will have the biggest impact on this team?

In reality, it'll be Hogans 10 snaps per game vs. Goodwin getting 4 then missing 6 hurt. So, Hogan.

 

Also, you need 11 STers, not 5. And those guys can get hurt. And Karlos Williams? Already? Nah. And I doubt Brooks makes the team.

Edited May 8, 2015 by FireChan

[Kirby Jackson]

In reality, it'll be Hogans 10 snaps per game vs. Goodwin getting 4 then missing 6 hurt. So, Hogan.

Ha ha, well that is a different argument. It will be interesting for sure. The Bills are going to cut some guys that are going to play on other teams, specifically at DB, WR and RB.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

Also, you need 11 STers, not 5. And those guys can get hurt. And Karlos Williams? Already? Nah. And I doubt Brooks makes the team.

Karlos Williams was drafted in large part for his elite ST play. He is 231 lbs and runs a 4.46 (or something like that). It is easy to see why he is considered a ST stud.

 

You do need 11 coverage guys on ST. Add Sanborn, Schmidt and some guys to block and you have your 11. You do not have 11 WR, DB types flying down the field as soon as the ball is snapped. The role that Hogan fills on ST is more adequately filled by the guys mentioned above.

 

I think that Brooks is a bubble guy. Gilmore, Darby, Robey, Graham and McKelvin are locks (unless they deal Leo or do without his salary). Graham may end up playing safety. That leave Brooks and Cockerill. You will see at least 1 and possibly both make the team. Personally, I think that Brooks is a little underrated. He is a phenomenal open field tackler (as good as the Bills have), good ST and can play on the outside. He is by no means a starting caliber CB but he will be on an NFL roster this year.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Kirby Jackson

[Ted William's frozen head]

 

I am not certain I buy the label "injury prone" with Goodwin. He's had some tough breaks and suffered from Marrone's ineffectiveness, but when he's been given snaps he's played well. He's more than a track guy, he's a football player with a lot of toughness. He looks as fast in pads as he does in shorts (rare) and has shown the ability to catch the ball well. All that said, there's very little chance he gets cut. If he isn't on the roster it will be because he's traded this weekend, not because he isn't good enough to play on Sundays.

He tripped on the sideline during a game last season, (he wasn't involved in a play) and had to be carted off to the locker room.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Ted William's frozen head

[Deranged Rhino]

 

 

Unfortunately for Goodwin, Hogan has proven himself a more capable player so far. Goodwin has some major talent, he's damned fast, seems to run routes ok (when he was allowed to) and has solid hands... BUT he can't stay on the field. Hogan is a crisp route runner, durable as hell, and also has solid hands. It might come down to who can provide the most value for special teams considering we have three WRs on the roster that'd go ahead of either on the depth chart.

 

I like Hogan as a player and as a story. He has report with EJ and works his ass off. But I don't agree he's a more capable WR than Goodwin.

 

The injuries issues can't be ignored, I grant you. I don't happen to believe he's as much injury prone as he's suffered from some unfortunate breaks (like his hand). That's a complete opinion and one that I know runs counter to the evidence we've seen on the field. I could be overselling it in my own mind, I have to admit that. That said, I think the coaching staff last year had no idea how to use Goodwin other than as a deep threat -- and they knew they didn't have a QB or line who could reliably hit Goodwin deep (not Orton's strength, not EJ's) so they relegated him to the bench where a lot of people assumed he was injured more times than not.

 

Kirby's mentioned a few times how teams let Hogan and Chandler catch balls last year because they were focused more on Sammy and Woods. I agree with that assessment because Hogan, despite being good, can't do much with the ball after the catch. Goodwin on the other hand can take any pass to the house -- assuming his body doesn't implode in the process of course.

 

I think with a new staff on top of the additions of Harvin, Clay and Felton, Hogan will have a tough time making the squad. I put his chances as lower than Goodwin's, but that's on the assumption that he's not injury prone... something I could be really wrong about. Special teams will play a role, and I really don't know who is more valuable on teams (though I'd assume Hogan simply because Harvin will be returning more than Flash). It'll be interesting to see how the competition plays out in camp.

 

He tripped on the sideline during a game last season, (he wasn't involved in a play) and had to be carted off to the locker room.

 

[Dorkington]

 

I like Hogan as a player and as a story. He has report with EJ and works his ass off. But I don't agree he's a more capable WR than Goodwin.

 

The injuries issues can't be ignored, I grant you. I don't happen to believe he's as much injury prone as he's suffered from some unfortunate breaks (like his hand). That's a complete opinion and one that I know runs counter to the evidence we've seen on the field. I could be overselling it in my own mind, I have to admit that. That said, I think the coaching staff last year had no idea how to use Goodwin other than as a deep threat -- and they knew they didn't have a QB or line who could reliably hit Goodwin deep (not Orton's strength, not EJ's) so they relegated him to the bench where a lot of people assumed he was injured more times than not.

 

Kirby's mentioned a few times how teams let Hogan and Chandler catch balls last year because they were focused more on Sammy and Woods. I agree with that assessment because Hogan, despite being good, can't do much with the ball after the catch. Goodwin on the other hand can take any pass to the house -- assuming his body doesn't implode in the process of course.

 

I think with a new staff on top of the additions of Harvin, Clay and Felton, Hogan will have a tough time making the squad. I put his chances as lower than Goodwin's, but that's on the assumption that he's not injury prone... something I could be really wrong about. Special teams will play a role, and I really don't know who is more valuable on teams (though I'd assume Hogan simply because Harvin will be returning more than Flash). It'll be interesting to see how the competition plays out in camp.

 

 

If Goodwin could stay healthy, I'd absolutely agree Goodwin > Hogan.

 

BUT

 

Taking injuries into consideration, and just how reliable Hogan has been so far... I take Hogan, because a guy that's injured, no matter how fast, doesn't help you on game day. That's just me though.. I really like Goodwin, he's got a great attitude, and what he showed when Stevie and Woods were out was very promising. My hope is that he stays healthy, we keep him, and he flourishes. It's just hard to make that prediction though, considering his time missed.

[FireChan]

 

I like Hogan as a player and as a story. He has report with EJ and works his ass off. But I don't agree he's a more capable WR than Goodwin.

 

The injuries issues can't be ignored, I grant you. I don't happen to believe he's as much injury prone as he's suffered from some unfortunate breaks (like his hand). That's a complete opinion and one that I know runs counter to the evidence we've seen on the field. I could be overselling it in my own mind, I have to admit that. That said, I think the coaching staff last year had no idea how to use Goodwin other than as a deep threat -- and they knew they didn't have a QB or line who could reliably hit Goodwin deep (not Orton's strength, not EJ's) so they relegated him to the bench where a lot of people assumed he was injured more times than not.

 

Kirby's mentioned a few times how teams let Hogan and Chandler catch balls last year because they were focused more on Sammy and Woods. I agree with that assessment because Hogan, despite being good, can't do much with the ball after the catch. Goodwin on the other hand can take any pass to the house -- assuming his body doesn't implode in the process of course.

 

I think with a new staff on top of the additions of Harvin, Clay and Felton, Hogan will have a tough time making the squad. I put his chances as lower than Goodwin's, but that's on the assumption that he's not injury prone... something I could be really wrong about. Special teams will play a role, and I really don't know who is more valuable on teams (though I'd assume Hogan simply because Harvin will be returning more than Flash). It'll be interesting to see how the competition plays out in camp.

 

 

It's the same problem with Spiller though. Just how effective is Goodwin when he's a little banged up vs Hogan? Spiller, when hampered by injuries, showed some poor play at RB without his speed. If Goodwin is the same, that's an issue.

[John from Riverside]

This is the thing

 

We are talking about the 4/5 wide receivers now

 

We just brought in a top 100 player in TE clay and we just drafted the Mackey award (and several times runner up) TE in O'Leary

 

There is going to be even LESS plays for that 4th/5th wide receiver.......so they whoever stays needs to be able to play very good ST's

[Kirby Jackson]

 

I like Hogan as a player and as a story. He has report with EJ and works his ass off. But I don't agree he's a more capable WR than Goodwin.

 

The injuries issues can't be ignored, I grant you. I don't happen to believe he's as much injury prone as he's suffered from some unfortunate breaks (like his hand). That's a complete opinion and one that I know runs counter to the evidence we've seen on the field. I could be overselling it in my own mind, I have to admit that. That said, I think the coaching staff last year had no idea how to use Goodwin other than as a deep threat -- and they knew they didn't have a QB or line who could reliably hit Goodwin deep (not Orton's strength, not EJ's) so they relegated him to the bench where a lot of people assumed he was injured more times than not.

 

Kirby's mentioned a few times how teams let Hogan and Chandler catch balls last year because they were focused more on Sammy and Woods. I agree with that assessment because Hogan, despite being good, can't do much with the ball after the catch. Goodwin on the other hand can take any pass to the house -- assuming his body doesn't implode in the process of course.

 

I think with a new staff on top of the additions of Harvin, Clay and Felton, Hogan will have a tough time making the squad. I put his chances as lower than Goodwin's, but that's on the assumption that he's not injury prone... something I could be really wrong about. Special teams will play a role, and I really don't know who is more valuable on teams (though I'd assume Hogan simply because Harvin will be returning more than Flash). It'll be interesting to see how the competition plays out in camp.

 

 

I believe that the stat is that the Bills were 1-6 (or 1-7 I can't remember) when Chandler and Hogan combined for 7+ catches. The only win was the Vikings game which is arguably the worst game that the Bills played last year.

 

The point being is that you need guys that are feared, even if they are somewhat limited. If we think back to the Donald Jones years this holds true. Chan is a very creative offensive mind but it doesn't matter if Donald Jones, Derek Hagan and David Nelson are the guys with the ball in their hands.

 

I don't know what the Bills plan on doing at the bottom of the depth chart but the sense that I get is that Rex wants guys that can turn a game on one play. He wants guys that are hard to defend. That probably stems from his defensive background. If you were to ask Rex which player he would rather play defense against Hogan or Goodwin what do you think his answer will be? I think that question is really relevant when discussing the backfield, WR, TEs and the QBs. This regime will be much, much different than the last in that sense. Marrone's philosophy was on having people in the right place and getting the most out of what they have. Rex's philosophy is get guys that can make a difference and hope to be able to get them to the right place. JMO

Edited May 8, 2015 by Kirby Jackson

[26CornerBlitz]

@WGR550

Marquise Goodwin looking forward to a fresh start: http://www.wgr550.com/Marquise-Goodwin-looking-forward-to-a-fresh-start/21508220

 

[Captain Caveman]

I sleep in a big bed with my wife.

[enlightener]

I slept on Goodwin last night...I'm sorry. He must have fell between the cushions in my friends sofa.

[26CornerBlitz]

@JohnMurphyShow

Speed to burn-and #Bills WR Marquise Goodwin says he's got more than that to offer. He joins us in studio tonight at 830pm

[3rdand12]

I admit i am a fan of Goodwin.

for all the right reasons. not because he is such an under dog with some of you guys.

Kid is a skilled football player and hard worker.

I hate to have to choose over Hogan if it come to that though. But i would do it. then second guess myself when Chris gets picked up.

[vincec]

You just can't build facets of your game plan around a guy that is 50-50 to be knocked out with injury on any given play.

[Kelly the Dog]

You just can't build facets of your game plan around a guy that is 50-50 to be knocked out with injury on any given play.

That's just a lie.