Was the trade for Watkins worth it?

[CardinalScotts]

Here's the real question - If Odell Beckham didn't do what he did, would this still even be a discussion?

 

 

 

I don't hear anyone but the most delusional Browns fans saying they'd trade Watkins for Justin Gilbert and the 19th pick in this draft. Most people seem to be getting hung up on Beckham without realizing no one had him valued at #9 and bringing him up is some serious revisionist history. It's clearly worth it, Sammy came up huge in a couple of wins last year and we haven't had a WR of his caliber since Moulds was in his prime.

your gonna have good numbers playing catch up football....Giants sucked always behind

[3rdand12]

 

 

On a Chevy Vega/Ford Maverick??? LOL. I guess, maybe..

Ever seen a Cosworth Vega. how about a 302 Maverick?

this is my area of knowledge. be careful where you tread

 

Are the Pirelli's not better than the worn down NTB's that slide all over the road even in dry conditions?

but they ARE expensive are they not?

[Cynical]

 

While I understand what you are trying to convey, let's be clear: you can't win without scoring points, and the offense scored the points, not the defense. In fact, the defense was directly responsible for 2 scores all season: the safety against GB, and the TD against Cleveland.

 

It was hardly a 2000 Ravens scenario, and Watkins was easily the biggest contributor on offense.

 

So yes, while not the 2000 Ravens, any attempt to minimize the impact the D had last year in this team reaching a winning record for the first time in a decade

has to be met with a healthy dose of skepticism.

 

The 2014 Bills ranked 18th overall in points for (21.4 ave) and 4th overall in points allowed (18.1 ave).

Just for giggles, I looked up the 18th overall in points allowed. That would be the Steelers at 23.0

 

If the Bills D was "average" last year, I sincerely doubt the Bills go 9-7 last year. Even with Watkins being on the team.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

Ever seen a Cosworth Vega. how about a 302 Maverick?

302 Maverick

 

Seen? How about driven!! A not so attractive little car with a shipload of power!!

Edited April 29, 2015 by BillsFan-4-Ever

[K-9]

Impossible to answer for a while yet. But based on the early returns, YES. And resoundingly so.

 

GO BILLS!!!

[3rdand12]

302 Maverick

 

Seen? How about driven!! A not so attractive little car with a shipload of power!!

a rare beast. you lucky dog

Impossible to answer for a while yet. But based on the early returns, YES. And resoundingly so.

 

GO BILLS!!!

This is a statement i can get one board with. Covers both ends of the positivity spectrum. too soon but very enthusiastic

Go Bills!

[Rob's House]

Ask me again at the end of the season and I'll be in a better position to answer.

 

Either way, Ebron will have nothing to do with my answer. I just don't get the logic. The move was preferable to the colossal disaster they would have otherwise made* so that makes it good?

 

 

* It's too early to say Ebron's a bust, but for the sake of argument.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Rob's House

[Kirby Jackson]

Ask me again at the end of the season and I'll be in a better position to answer.

 

Either way, Ebron will have nothing to do with my answer. I just don't get the logic. The move was preferable to the colossal disaster they would have otherwise made* so that makes it good?

 

 

* It's too early to say Ebron's a bust, but for the sake of argument.

Think of it like the Tom Brady argument. Would the 2000 draft have been better for the Bills if they used their 1st on Tom Brady? Of course it would but that wasn't a realistic option. When judging the Watkins trade you are judging what was going to happen. They were either going to trade up for Watkins or stand pat and take Ebron. We can't just say it's a bad trade because we should have traded back 10 spots and taken Benjamin or whatever. It wasn't a realistic option just like Brady in the 1st. Edited April 30, 2015 by Kirby Jackson

[Rob's House]

Think of it like the Tom Brady argument. Would the 2000 draft have been better for the Bills if they used their 1st on Tpm Brady? Of course it would but that wasn't a realistic option. When judging the Watkins trade you are judging what was going to happen. They were either going to trade up for Watkins or stand pat and take Ebron. We can't just say it's a bad trade because we should have traded back 10 spots and taken Benjamin or whatever. It wasn't a realistic option just like Brady in the 1st.

I look at the big picture. If Watkins is ~ 3 or 4 other guys then I'll say it wasn't a good trade. I might say it's preferable to what they would have otherwise done but stI'll not good. If he separates himself from the rest of the pack I'll say it was worth it even if OBJ puts up better numbers.

[Augie]

WR depends on so many other factors, not the least of which is a QB. Having said that, I'm a big Sammy fan. Jerry Rice is nothing with JP throwing to him and a bunch of truck drivers and PE teachers blocking. I wonder who might have been GREAT given better circumstances... but that's for another thread, I guess.

 

(Not having broken ribs might help too.)

[What a Tuel]

Why is he great? he was very good. And i am not comparing him to anyone.

Now keep in mind, i am a fan . but we did not use him to his strengths last year, and he was injured not playing to potential.

you are on the koolaids brother. better to admit it .

That said i look forward to an amazing year from him under some real NFL coaching under Roman !!

or playing to win now?

 

I think the answer is in your post. He managed put up great numbers for a rookie, and did it under a deficient qb, and an offensive coach that used him as a "decoy". He was also hampered a bit by injuries, but that is also an excuse.

 

I'm reiterating what you said, so I think you agree, but 982 yards 6 tds is nothing to sneeze at under those conditions.

 

I also look forward to seeing an amazing year from him!

[Deranged Rhino]

 

I'll never understand how obtaining a talented NFL WR to make up for the QB is viewed as, from a team building perspective, a great move. The idea that drafting Watkins via a trade up to help out Manuel is absurd, but given that EJM was Whaley's pick as well, not surprising.

 

And this was all done in April 2014 when the only QB's on the roster were EJM, Thad Lewis and Jeff Tuel. Then again, Whaley was acting in his own interest and the team president wouldn't oppose a move to improve both of their positions.

 

For the record, no one argues with Watkins' talent. The issue is, when allocating resources, why you'd go after receivers as San-O points out, when your OL and QB aren't good.

 

I think the misunderstanding comes from the words "make up for the QB". You're right, that's a somewhat ridiculous premise but that's not really what this pick was about. It was about the Bills viewing Watkins as a generational talent at the WR position. Getting star players in the draft is a crapshoot as we all know, the only thing you can do is trust your scouts and stick to your instincts and team building plan. Every single scouting report, from every NFL team, had Watkins rated as a can't-miss-prospect -- the kind of guy who can win games (which Watkins did for us three times last year). Regardless of what Whaley says to the press, the move to get Watkins (a cost-controlled for 4 years potential star player) fits perfectly with what we've seen of his plan for turning the Bills around.

You might not agree with the plan (which is completely fair), but the Bills clearly have one. As we've seen since Whaley took over fully, his plan has been to take advantage of not having to pay for a franchise QB (because they have yet to find one, not because they aren't looking) and spend that money bringing in as many weapons and securing as much talent at every other position, starting with the front 4 on defense. And Watkins, a star they could get at a position of need on a 4 year rookie deal, fits that plan perfectly. He might not "make the QB better", but he certainly makes the Bills a more attractive destination for veteran QBs for the next four years (if not longer).

I think we can both agree that "Whaley's own interests" are tied directly to the team's win-loss record. Career wise, this is all that matters to Doug's legacy and his future employment opportunities. So while you may not agree with how he's doing things (again, I can respect that, I'm not calling for universal praise), it seems silly to imply as you do in this post that Whaley's interests run counter to what's best for the team. He wants the team to win, just like we all do.

 

 

 

I know you can't bring yourself to criticize this team, but doesn't it make you wince that Whaley's 2 main options on Draft Day 2014 were to trade up for Watkins or take Ebron 9th?

 

It doesn't make me wince because I believe Sammy will prove himself to be every bit the star Whaley thought he was trading up for. Had Whaley traded up for Ebron, we'd be having a very different conversation. But he didn't, he traded up for a guy who is pretty damn good.

 

 

22 targets for Beckham in Week 17 alone.

 

I also just read today that 54 of the 124 targets Watkins received were "uncatchable" according to PFF (for whatever that's worth).

 

ODB laughs at this word "uncatchable".

[stevestojan]

No.

 

 

He's excellent. But he's like having a top of the line pair of headphones plugged into a 1984 Walkman cassette player.

[3rdand12]

 

I think the answer is in your post. He managed put up great numbers for a rookie, and did it under a deficient qb, and an offensive coach that used him as a "decoy". He was also hampered a bit by injuries, but that is also an excuse.

 

I'm reiterating what you said, so I think you agree, but 982 yards 6 tds is nothing to sneeze at under those conditions.

 

I also look forward to seeing an amazing year from him!

Thanks Thats some good perspective Brother.

No.

 

 

He's excellent. But he's like having a top of the line pair of headphones plugged into a 1984 Walkman cassette player.

thats pretty harsh steve, but at least you will admit Sammy is quite the ballplayer. as will i

Edited April 30, 2015 by 3rdand12

[thebandit27]

 

So yes, while not the 2000 Ravens, any attempt to minimize the impact the D had last year in this team reaching a winning record for the first time in a decade

has to be met with a healthy dose of skepticism.

 

The 2014 Bills ranked 18th overall in points for (21.4 ave) and 4th overall in points allowed (18.1 ave).

Just for giggles, I looked up the 18th overall in points allowed. That would be the Steelers at 23.0

 

If the Bills D was "average" last year, I sincerely doubt the Bills go 9-7 last year. Even with Watkins being on the team.

Fortunately, I didn't make any attempt to marginalize the defensive performance.

[thewildrabbit]

 

I'll never understand how obtaining a talented NFL WR to make up for the QB is viewed as, from a team building perspective, a great move. The idea that drafting Watkins via a trade up to help out Manuel is absurd, but given that EJM was Whaley's pick as well, not surprising.

 

And this was all done in April 2014 when the only QB's on the roster were EJM, Thad Lewis and Jeff Tuel. Then again, Whaley was acting in his own interest and the team president wouldn't oppose a move to improve both of their positions.

 

For the record, no one argues with Watkins' talent. The issue is, when allocating resources, why you'd go after receivers as San-O points out, when your OL and QB aren't good.

The more viable question should be would it have been smarter to trade up to draft Mike Evans who is that big WR that the team has tried to acquire for years, and the team still has a need for that big WR red zone target. Or, just draft OBJ who the FO was very high on prior to the draft, or even Kelvin Benjamin and still have this years first round draft pick, and fourth.

 

This brings up the question, does this teams scouting dept really know college talent at any position? The mere fact that the Bills would have drafted Ebron should have Bills fans scratching their head.

 

The Cowboys pick at #16 Zack Martin made the PB at OG, and that position was clearly the weakest position on the team last year.

 

The Giants drafted WR Odell Beckham JR @ #12 and the kid missed most of the off season, pre season and the first four regular season games with a hamstring injury. Now considering he played in only 12 games, and still had 91 receptions for 1305 yards 12 TD's, made the pro bowl. OBJ set about 30 new NYG records last year.

 

The big talk from OBD, and hardliners was that Watkins is a once in a generation player. Yet it looks more like Watkins might be injury prone, and Beckham might be that once in a generation guy. If not for missing those first four games he would have shattered Randy Moss's rookie receiving record of 1, 313 yards. Extrapolate what he would have done in 16 games and it looks like 1600+ yards, 16 TD's, 120+ receptions. Holy Crap, as that puts him in the top three players for last season. If not the league leader.

 

What makes no sense to me is utilizing two firsts, and a fourth on a player not a franchise QB. Last years team was more then one WR away from even making the playoffs, and they still are.

[ko12010]

The Bills went 9-7 based on great D and not their receiving game.

 

They had and still have nobody to really get him the ball.

 

I just don't believe you trade away picks to get a receiver in the NFL when ur O line is a mess and you have no QB.

Good stuff.

[papazoid]

yes

 

 

and this is from a guy who wouldn't have done it.

[Hot Buffalo Wings]

Watkins/Woods/Harvin/Goodwin/Clay > Woods/Harvin/Goodwin/Hogan/Ebron

 

It ain't close.

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

The more viable question should be would it have been smarter to trade up to draft Mike Evans who is that big WR that the team has tried to acquire for years, and the team still has a need for that big WR red zone target. Or, just draft OBJ who the FO was very high on prior to the draft, or even Kelvin Benjamin and still have this years first round draft pick, and fourth.

 

This brings up the question, does this teams scouting dept really know college talent at any position? The mere fact that the Bills would have drafted Ebron should have Bills fans scratching their head.

 

The Cowboys pick at #16 Zack Martin made the PB at OG, and that position was clearly the weakest position on the team last year.

 

The Giants drafted WR Odell Beckham JR @ #12 and the kid missed most of the off season, pre season and the first four regular season games with a hamstring injury. Now considering he played in only 12 games, and still had 91 receptions for 1305 yards 12 TD's, made the pro bowl. OBJ set about 30 new NYG records last year.

 

The big talk from OBD, and hardliners was that Watkins is a once in a generation player. Yet it looks more like Watkins might be injury prone, and Beckham might be that once in a generation guy. If not for missing those first four games he would have shattered Randy Moss's rookie receiving record of 1, 313 yards. Extrapolate what he would have done in 16 games and it looks like 1600+ yards, 16 TD's, 120+ receptions. Holy Crap, as that puts him in the top three players for last season. If not the league leader.

 

What makes no sense to me is utilizing two firsts, and a fourth on a player not a franchise QB. Last years team was more then one WR away from even making the playoffs, and they still are.

Wait Beckham missed most of the off season all 5 games of the preseason and 4 regular season games. Sammy misses 1 preseason game and plays in every regular season game, but Sammy might be injury prone. That's just ridiculous. You sure you want to go with that?