OCinBuffalo Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 (edited) I've thought and thought about this...and I can't figure it out. I can see both sides of the issue. I've read/listened to people with personal experience or who have done research, and I still can't make an informed decision on this issue. 1: you have the standard school choice/charter school argument, which for those that don't know, can be summed up as: competition creates results. Force schools to compete with each other, and charter schools, for students/money, and you'll see most schools improve, and some die a death they should have died 40 years ago. 2: you have the argument, supported by many teachers, legitimately(not union influenced), that all a charter school does is cherry pick good students, draw redundant $ away that is better off centralized(more in a sec), and leaves the rest of the students/teachers with larger class sizes and less resources to go around. 2 claims that charter schools derail economies of scale. Example: Making lunch in a central location, and shipping it to all schools, is inevitably cheaper than doing it on location, thus leaving more budget $ for other things, like hiring more teachers. 2 says the charter school is an illusion. Of course you're going to get better results with the best behaved and smarter kids in a small class-size school. And, improved behavior isn't limited to the kids: parents had to win a lottery to get their child in there, and, if the kid acts up? It's back to hell, so the parents are on high alert. The improved parent behavior skew the results too. 2 says that the job of a school district is to educate ALL the kids, including the special needs kids, emotionally challenged/traumatized, and the just plain stupid. Charters don't accept these kids. I can't decide. I can see both arguments, and, I certainly can see the logic of 2. Right now, my thoughts are: make every school a charter school, and decentralize the whole thing, because: that's what I always say. No seriously, I'm unconvinced that the economies of scale via centralization....aren't totally consumed by administrative/bureaucratic functionaries. The growth in their numbers has been documented. But, then I think about cost redundancy...and I'm back to square 1. Then I think: maybe charter schools at both ends of the bell curve? But, that seems Orwellian, and "What about the late bloomers?", and, pigeon-holing kids is what the rest of the world does. They ration education by kicking the C and below students out of the system at 15. Japan even has a name for these kids: ronin. (Ah yes Japan...of "lowest cost per capital spent on health care" fame...if you don't count the illegal side-payments) Then: we get to hear about our test scores(the rationale for Common Core) compared to the rest of the world...after they've thrown out half, or more, of their kids? But, like I said: even after all the thought on this, I'm still clueless on this issue. Perhaps you guys can help me get a clue. Edited April 21, 2015 by OCinBuffalo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 I've thought and thought about this...and I can't figure it out. I can see both sides of the issue. I've read/listened to people with personal experience or who have done research, and I still can't make an informed decision on this issue. But it won't stop you from writing pages of drivel on it, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante Posted April 21, 2015 Share Posted April 21, 2015 Anything that makes education accountable for their product I'm for. Anything that decentralizes the system I'm for. Making schools compete like everyone else seems like a good idea. I can see why teachers unions hate this. They may actually have to work a bit and we can't have that. Say to my wife all the time if I did it all again being a teacher is a great option. Glorified baby sitting. Great hours. Great vacations. Almost impossible to get fired. One of the better gigs out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 This is a discussion worth having. I don't have the time for it now, but I have the plaque on my office wall proclaiming me the "founding father" of one of the first charter schools in California. I think that phrase is a little overstated and know that a lot of people put a lot of work into our little project, so maybe I should have just been labeled the guy that tried to keep everyone on point. Anyway, anyone wanting a serious conversation here about this without the gatorlike hysterics from the teacher unions will be welcome to post or message me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante Posted April 22, 2015 Share Posted April 22, 2015 This is a discussion worth having. I don't have the time for it now, but I have the plaque on my office wall proclaiming me the "founding father" of one of the first charter schools in California. I think that phrase is a little overstated and know that a lot of people put a lot of work into our little project, so maybe I should have just been labeled the guy that tried to keep everyone on point. Anyway, anyone wanting a serious conversation here about this without the gatorlike hysterics from the teacher unions will be welcome to post or message me. I think free market principles applied to anything improves the product. Competition would weed out the weak educators and fairly reward the good ones. Generalities I know but it's a starting point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Probably the most thorough and accurate report I've yet to see on the issue: The Business of Charter Schooling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 (edited) For me it's all about allocation of resources. If we insist on restricting school choice, we are not allocating our resources towards those individuals who are most likely to take advantage of them, and generate us the largest possible return on investment. Envision all the children in a hypothetical public school as empty water glasses: some will be 2 ounce cups, some will be 20 ounce cups, and most will fall in between. The non-school choice position, at it's most basic level, insists that we attempt to pour 8 ounces of water into each cup, actual capacity be damned. All cups smaller than 8 ounces spill their excess onto the floor, wasting the water resource, all cups larger have their true capacity wasted because what could have gone to fill them was poured onto the floor in a rush to fill the 2 ounce cup to an 8 ounce volume. If we insist on educating to the lowest common denominator, we will continue to marginalize the gifted, especially in our poorest communities; and that is no way to conduct sensible policy. Edited December 10, 2015 by TakeYouToTasker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Large Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Nice post. What I find very interesting about education is my Liberal friends preach on and on about equality and fairness, yet they pull and their strings and push around their weigh to make sure their kids end up in the very best position even if meant an "exception" to that fairness standard. So the framework to me is set to make changes to an entrenched educational system to begin addressing modern day educational needs. That aside, I don't have children, but as with most things I kind of feel like local is better. The one size fits all approach does not meet the needs of Children of different skills and aptitudes. To me, you build a system that accommodates a child skills, and gives every one the most opportunity. I assume that might be taking the best and the brightest and getting them into a high paced school with the freedom to push for excellence, but that also means children who are more geared toward learning a vocational skill would get to a school with the very best school for learning a valuable trade. The Federal Government might be best serving the populace by getting out of the educational game, and leaving it to States, better yet districts and communities to design and develop programs that address their needs. That probably means more school choice, more charter schools and other innovative ideas. IMHO, parent involvement is much more powerful and motivator for excellence that more Federal monies... but that's just me, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 The Federal Government might be best serving the populace by getting out of the educational game, and leaving it to States, better yet districts and communities to design and develop programs that address their needs. That probably means more school choice, more charter schools ....... If you agree that local control is more beneficial to schools and students (which I do), then the last entity you want involved is the charter privateers who are far more interested in your tax dollars than they are your kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 If you agree that local control is more beneficial to schools and students (which I do), then the last entity you want involved is the charter privateers who are far more interested in your tax dollars than they are your kids. I disagree. They don't get the tax dollars unless they attract the kids, and they don't attract the kids unless they help the kids who do pass through the school achieve superior results. So, regardless of what their motivations may be, they do work to the benefit of the kids who attend them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 I disagree. They don't get the tax dollars unless they attract the kids, and they don't attract the kids unless they help the kids who do pass through the school achieve superior results. So, regardless of what their motivations may be, they do work to the benefit of the kids who attend them. And what benefits would those be? To streamline the process so they can spend as little as possible to have day care workers drill kids 6 hours a day on how to do better on standardized tests? And then when it doesn't work and it's not profitable enough, to abandon the district and go looking for a fresh set of suckers? That's the forward thinking plan for our education system? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B-Man Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 And what benefits would those be? To streamline the process so they can spend as little as possible to have day care workers drill kids 6 hours a day on how to do better on standardized tests? And then when it doesn't work and it's not profitable enough, to abandon the district and go looking for a fresh set of suckers? That's the forward thinking plan for our education system? or.................... they teach them critical thinking and a well rounded education.....and thus have more children enrolled. but that would be silly in your "business is greed" example I guess. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 or.................... they teach them critical thinking and a well rounded education... which is the exact opposite of what the majority of them are doing. but that would be silly in your "business is greed" example I guess. . I have no problem with business; put together some capital and open up some charter schools and see how you do. That's the American way and more power to you. But taking my tax dollars and filling your pockets while you cherry pick "certain" kids and have babysitters drill them on standardized tests is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 And what benefits would those be? To streamline the process so they can spend as little as possible to have day care workers drill kids 6 hours a day on how to do better on standardized tests? And then when it doesn't work and it's not profitable enough, to abandon the district and go looking for a fresh set of suckers? That's the forward thinking plan for our education system? Links please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Links please. Do your own homework; this isn't a charter school. Or take the time to read the very thorough report I've already provided and see how real estate and hedge funders are angling for your monies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Do your own homework; this isn't a charter school.Thanks for your intellectual laziness. I'm sure I'm convinced by your profundity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Thanks for your intellectual laziness. I'm sure I'm convinced by your profundity. The guy that won't do his own research is accusing the guy who already provided research of being lazy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 (edited) The guy that won't do his own research is accusing the guy who already provided research of being lazy?You made a positve statement, I asked you to support it. That's how logic works. It's not my job, nor anyone else's, to disprove your fiat declarations. Your fiat declarations don't materialize as standing facts until disproven. You introduced an idea. Defend it. Edited December 10, 2015 by TakeYouToTasker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 The Federal Government might be best serving the populace by getting out of the educational game, and leaving it to States, Forgot to mention that the recent walking back of federal standards is doing exactly that. Its very interesting when you consider just how often the federal government actually cedes acquired power back to the states. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
....lybob Posted December 10, 2015 Share Posted December 10, 2015 Links please. According to DCTom links are not necessary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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