How many years has Matt Cassel had a good team behind him?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

As a starter, if you look at the rosters and statistics and coaching, he has had two, and maybe three. The year with the Pats and and the Pro Bowl year with the Chiefs. I will add the 2009 year with the Chiefs, as they had some good players on offense. But their defense was terrible, and Todd Haley was their coach. Even if you count that year, when he has had decent team around him he has played well.

 

He's never had weapons close to what he has this year.

 

Please tell me what years he played with good players and didn't play well.

 

Well, I think you called it, 2009 and 2011 the Chiefs had talent on offense. But Haley fired his OC (Chan Gailey) during the preseason because, that always ends so well for a team.

There wasn't that big of a personnel change between disappointing 2009, playoff 2010, and disappointing 2011 - the usual lose a few, gain a few (IMO)

The big difference was DC (Clancy Pendergast vs Romeo Crennel was their Wannstache to Pettine) and OC (Haley hiring himself as OC vs Charlie Weiss).

In 2011, Haley brought in Bill Muir as OC and the offense regressed again, badly.

 

Coaching does matter.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

One could argue those teams weren't good because Matt Cassel was their qb.

 

Is this going to be Kyle Orton again where people try to pretend like he is something isn't? They are professional Qbs who get passed around the NFL. They are good backups and bad starters.

 

If Cassel becomes the starter (awful but could happen), he will play decent one game and people while talk contract extension. Then he will throw 4 ints against NE like he did last year.

 

He's great as a backup. But after 10 years, to expect anything more, is setting yourself up for failure.

 

P.S. Haley looked great with Big Ben this year and Kurt Warner in the past.

 

 

I somewhat disagree. For example, the Chiefs from 2009 to 2010 to 2011 had a heck of a lot of carryover. A big difference was coaching, specifically the type of offense.

 

I view Cassel as kind of like my in-laws former Toyota pickup truck. It's a decent truck for what it was designed for - light hauling of tools, farm, and household stuff.

If you try to use it to pull heavy trailers through mountains or fill the bed with sacks of concrete mix, you'll think it sucks.

 

Cassel has been at his best with a run-centric, run-first offense where he's safe behind a reasonably good line. When he's been tried in other systems, it hasn't been pretty.

But he can be a reasonably consistent, capable QB in the system that suits him.

 

The real question with any of our QB this year IMO is what kind of OL will we put in front of them. We don't have a QB on the roster who can make something happen regardless.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Hopeful

[BarleyNY]

Wow.....did you see Green Bay game against us last year?

 

They should bench that QB

 

The main difference is, of course, that in one case you're looking at the poor exception to a player's great career and in the other you're hoping that a player can re-create the good exception to an otherwise poor career.

 

I hope Cassel can do well for the Bills. Heck, I hope Cassel does well and that EJ does better and beats him out, but if I'm Whaley or Rex I'm not counting on either. I'm looking hard for another QB until I find one or one emerges from my roster.

Edited April 11, 2015 by BarleyNY

[stinky finger]

1) Haley isn't as bad as coach as you want him to be. He's done great jobs with several teams

 

2) the Vikes were a better team after he got injured

 

So basically if Cassel inherits a 16-0 team, he can get us close to the playoffs. Awesome.

I don't get the Taylor hype. He is a smaller less talented EJ IMO. But I'd rather him start than Cassel. Cassel is so uninspiring.

I'm not hyping TT....just reading the tea leaves.

 

I believe he was brought here to compete to start. I think it's between EJ and TT. They possess the preferred skillset, IMO.

[Jets Hater]

I really have a hard time understanding the EJ believers. I'm obviously not an expert and I understand that he's been around only for 2 seasons, but nothing so far shows me that he has the overall qualities to become a good QB in the NFL. I understand that it would be the best case scenario if he pans out, but again, the body of work so far is less than impressive. I do not hate the guy and would be happily surprise if he works out, but I can't figure out where the EJ crowd get their hope from. What have you seen from him that makes you a believer ? The reaction of players last year when he was benched was very telling for me.

 

Again, I will be the 1st to congratulate him if he wins the job but I personally don't see it happening. I believe we will roll out with Cassel and he'll bring us to the playoffs. That's all that matters. I would be happy with Betty White as our QB if we make it to the post season. Go Bills !

[John from Riverside]

Come on John. If Cassel had Rodgers career, you overlook that game. But he's had a lot of bad games. It's why he is Matt Cassel.

 

He had a good year 5 years ago. If Cassel is the answer, you've got the wrong question.

 

In his only start against the Pats, EJ left the field with the lead. In his last start against the Pats, Cassel threw 4 ints.

Biscuit

 

I understand your position

 

I guess what I am trying to say is that we cannot really point to one game against a common opponet as the barometer of whether the qb can succeed or not.

 

In all of the Cassel vs EJ Manuel debate....it is in the BEST interests for EJ Manuel to win that job and by win that job.....WIN THE JOB....play better in training camp....better in pre season.....actually show that he can play better then he did last year....not just because EJ is the drafted player but Matt Cassell to me serves as a very good backup/mentor to a young qb

 

The question is....WILL HE

[3rdand12]

So heres my question. I think we have enough difference in QBing skillset to design around that one ( Cassel ) might be much different than the other two,

(TT and EJ).

Wouldn't it be prudent to design for Tyrod and EJ and then employ a fall back system that allows Cassel to play to his strengths ?

I might suppose Roman will first see how "his" system is fitting with all 3, then begin the tweaks

[1billsfan]

Biscuit

 

I understand your position

 

I guess what I am trying to say is that we cannot really point to one game against a common opponet as the barometer of whether the qb can succeed or not.

 

In all of the Cassel vs EJ Manuel debate....it is in the BEST interests for EJ Manuel to win that job and by win that job.....WIN THE JOB....play better in training camp....better in pre season.....actually show that he can play better then he did last year....not just because EJ is the drafted player but Matt Cassell to me serves as a very good backup/mentor to a young qb

 

The question is....WILL HE

 

What many here are not talking about with the QB debate is that the Bills defense might be so good and that, combined with a great running game, it honestly won't even matter who the QB is. Baring injury, the Bills are going to be in the playoffs. It's with this thought that I'm very comfortable in saying that EJ Manuel will probably be the starter because he has more upside than the known backup only QB in Cassel. Once EJ gets a season under his belt of having brought a team to the playoffs then the confidence starts to really grow and the team will have that confidence in him too. Before you know it, the Bills think they can win a Superbowl with EJ even if he isn't an elite QB. The search is over, he's our guy because we aren't picking high enough in the draft anymore to draft a franchise QB.

 

IMO the league is heading into a "dark ages" period with regards to the QB position. The thread about the MCM game got me to go back to see the top QBs of that season. It was the period right after the greatest QB draft class left the stage. The only QBs who were worth anything were Kurt Warner and Brett Favre, that's it! This is what will happen the next couple of years. Once Brady, Manning leave the NFL landscape changes. Shortly after they go so goes Brees and Rothlesberger. There will come a time in the not so distant future when the only QB worth anything in the league is Aaron Rogers, Andrew Luck, and maybe Russell Wilson, that's probably it. So if EJ Manuel could become a better than average QB then the Bills could actually win a Superbowl with him as the QB within the next few years if they do still have a top defense and running game.

Edited April 11, 2015 by 1billsfan

[Hapless Bills Fan]

He coordinated Pittsburgh to the #2 offense in the NFL this year.

 

He wasn't #1. He does stink.

 

 

He's not bad as an OC, when focused on being an OC.

 

As a head coach firing his OC days before the season, he stank right enough. And he was kind of an egomaniac as a HC from what one can tell.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

No. You can't. That's the thesis of the thread. Every player on the team except Cassel. Look at the rosters of the teams, and their defenses and their coaches. He was not on good teams. The only two times he was he did well. That doesn't mean he is going to be great, or good. The point is he has rarely played on talented teams.

 

Well, I can tell I'm a born moderate, I can argue with both sides of an issue.

 

I think if you look at the KC losing 2009 roster, you'll see it was fairly talented and not that different than the 2010 playoff roster. If you disagree, can you help me understand who the key difference-makers were? (2010 did see McCluster and Moeaki added as rookies, but also missed Jamaal Charles for 10 of 16 games)

I'm not hyping TT....just reading the tea leaves.

 

I believe he was brought here to compete to start. I think it's between EJ and TT. They possess the preferred skillset, IMO.

 

The problem is: reading the tea leaves is all one can do to determine how TT will behave as an NFL starter. He really has only had significant playing time in a few "don't matter" game 16s

If any QB can't perform with this team, they should be immediately shipped off to the glue factory.

 

 

Careful with that shipping requisition. I'd wait to see what the OL looks like before I'd fill it out, were I you.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I really have a hard time understanding the EJ believers. I'm obviously not an expert and I understand that he's been around only for 2 seasons, but nothing so far shows me that he has the overall qualities to become a good QB in the NFL. I understand that it would be the best case scenario if he pans out, but again, the body of work so far is less than impressive. I do not hate the guy and would be happily surprise if he works out, but I can't figure out where the EJ crowd get their hope from. What have you seen from him that makes you a believer ? The reaction of players last year when he was benched was very telling for me.

 

I dunno about player reaction to benching. I don't trust media, and I think if WR aren't running good routes the WR position coach, OC, and HC ought to get on their asses not just leave it to the QB. I think player reactions are also influenced by coaches.

 

I really loathe and despise the ol' " believer " "lover" "hater" dichotomies that get imposed around here. Not pickin' on you, you're far from the only one, just sayin.

 

EJ has shown flashes. He's had games where he had completion percentages in the high 60%-70%, >7 ay/a, >240 yds, flirting with 300 yds in one game. People who really like to study games and study QB know that a number of decent QB have had inconsistant play their first several years (or didn't even play!) So we say OK, he was inconsistent, he had maybe 6 decent to good games, if he can become more consistent at that level he'll do fine.

 

EJ wasn't expected to be "NFL ready" like Luck, he was expected to be a project who would take several years to "get it", so from that metric it's expected that his "body of work" overall wouldn't be impressive at this point, and what you want to see are some signs that at times he gets it. They're there.

 

Do I know or expect that the flashes will become more consistent and he'll succeed? If anyone could know that, the overall success rate for QB drafted in the first round would be much better than it is.

[Kelly the Dog]

 

Well, I can tell I'm a born moderate, I can argue with both sides of an issue.

 

I think if you look at the KC losing 2009 roster, you'll see it was fairly talented and not that different than the 2010 playoff roster. If you disagree, can you help me understand who the key difference-makers were? (2010 did see McCluster and Moeaki added as rookies, but also missed Jamaal Charles for 10 of 16 games)

I counted 2009 and 2010 as years he had a good team, along with the Patriots team.

[Ronin]

As a starter, if you look at the rosters and statistics and coaching, he has had two, and maybe three. The year with the Pats and and the Pro Bowl year with the Chiefs. I will add the 2009 year with the Chiefs, as they had some good players on offense. But their defense was terrible, and Todd Haley was their coach. Even if you count that year, when he has had decent team around him he has played well.

 

He's never had weapons close to what he has this year.

 

Please tell me what years he played with good players and didn't play well.

 

I agree

[jimmy10]

You didn't watch the Pats game last year did you?

 

Not they aren't laughing at us already, but The Pats will be dying of laughter if Cassel is our starter.

The thing about that Vikings/Pats game last year: The Vikings lost Adrian Peterson that very week. Do you think that may have altered their game plan a little? Maybe forced them to throw more than they were comfortable with?

[CardinalScotts]

You didn't watch the Pats game last year did you?

 

Not they aren't laughing at us already, but The Pats will be dying of laughter if Cassel is our starter.

as opposed to ?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I counted 2009 and 2010 as years he had a good team, along with the Patriots team.

 

Well, then, same question: what (in terms of key players) was different in your view between 2010 Chiefs and 2011 Chiefs? They didn't have Charles, but they didn't have him for most of 2010.

 

I look at 2009 and 2011 as examples of years Cassel had a good team around him, and didn't play well.

IMO the key difference was offensive scheme and coaching. Weis ran the very definition of "Ground and Pound" and "Run to Throw". But that's just my opinion.

You didn't watch the Pats game last year did you?

 

Not they aren't laughing at us already, but The Pats will be dying of laughter if Cassel is our starter.

 

Then it's the job of our D to ensure they are soon laughing out the other end of their digestive track.

[Kelly the Dog]

 

Well, then, same question: what (in terms of key players) was different in your view between 2010 Chiefs and 2011 Chiefs? They didn't have Charles, but they didn't have him for most of 2010.

 

I look at 2009 and 2011 as examples of years Cassel had a good team around him, and didn't play well.

IMO the key difference was offensive scheme and coaching. Weis ran the very definition of "Ground and Pound" and "Run to Throw". But that's just my opinion.

 

Then it's the job of our D to ensure they are soon laughing out the other end of their digestive track.

2011 They had nobody. One player, Dwayne Bowe who was any good. No RB, Steve Breaston was their #2. No TE. How can you possibly say that was a good team around him?

[1billsfan]

2011 They had nobody. One player, Dwayne Bowe who was any good. No RB, Steve Breaston was their #2. No TE. How can you possibly say that was a good team around him?

 

I think it's fair to say that Matt Cassel is a step below Ryan Fitzpatrick starting QB level. Just looking over their stats of the last few years there can't even be any argument. Is there anyone here who'd rather have Cassel over Fitzpatrick?

 

So having established that parameter, I think Bills fans shouldn't fool themselves into thinking Cassel's something he's not. EJ Manuel will be the starting QB for the Bills this year because he's the better QB right now, and he also has the added ability of being a mobile QB who can gain huge chunks of yardage with his feet. That's a HUGE dimension opened up for a team that doesn't have that elite QB's arm to rely on when games are in the balance in the fourth quarter.

 

Cassel is clearly the fall back option if Manuel looks like a deer in headlights kind of what we saw in his last two starts (although some of that came from the offensive line's horrid play). I just don't see that happening though.

[dave mcbride]

Todd haley in 3 seasons as a head coach - 1 playoff appearance.

 

The Bills the past 15 seasons - 0 playoff appearances.

 

Has anyone here WATCHED Cassel play in the last 3-4 seasons as opposed to just looking at lineup cards? I have. He's not good. In his KC years, they were always a top running team. In his last year there, they were 5th in rushing attempts and yards.

 

To be fair, he played well against the Eagles in the final game of the 2013 season, although the Eagles had clinched and the game was meaningless for their seeding: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201312150min.htm

 

Let's go, EJ.

Edited April 12, 2015 by dave mcbride

[Big Gun]

 

I think it's fair to say that Matt Cassel is a step below Ryan Fitzpatrick starting QB level. Just looking over their stats of the last few years there can't even be any argument. Is there anyone here who'd rather have Cassel over Fitzpatrick?

 

So having established that parameter, I think Bills fans shouldn't fool themselves into thinking Cassel's something he's not. EJ Manuel will be the starting QB for the Bills this year because he's the better QB right now, and he also has the added ability of being a mobile QB who can gain huge chunks of yardage with his feet. That's a HUGE dimension opened up for a team that doesn't have that elite QB's arm to rely on when games are in the balance in the fourth quarter.

 

Cassel is clearly the fall back option if Manuel looks like a deer in headlights kind of what we saw in his last two starts (although some of that came from the offensive line's horrid play). I just don't see that happening though.

Equally, you hoping EJ is something he is not. IMO Cassel is better than EJ and it's not close. FWIW I don't think Cassel is anything more than a placeholder average QB. Ask the WR corp right now who they would prefer as the QB, bet it's not EJ, especially after last years WR mutiny, that's telling IMO. Sorry just don't think Rex is going to roll with EJ as his starter.