Bill from NYC Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 Winston's season last year was worse than either of EJ's last two seasons. That's a major red flag, to go along with the off-field stuff. Sure, but imo many forget that before selecting EJ the Bills traded DOWN. This clearly indicates that the Bills were willing to take a chance on losing him. You just don't trade down when you are desperate for a QB, and relatively certain that your franchise QB is sitting there. It is very likely that they had someone (Smith?) rated about as high for them to have made that move. Winston is a head case no doubt and I would be worried about his character if I was thinking of drafting him, but he is 10x better than EJ. The expectations for EJ on this board are through the roof. That's great too but you and I saw the same thing with Losman, remember? Personally I think that Cassell will win the job and take us to the playoffs. We shall see, old friend.
Nanker Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 If you want to be proactive, you should start hating Grayson... Just in case Good idea. He sucks, and has proven time and again he's not a starting QB in this league. How'm I doin'?
Mark80 Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 Good but hardly historic. He's arguably not even the best QB in that conference. A lot of people feel Keeton is better. I've watched Grayson in 2 bowl games and he never stood out to me. If these draft gurus didn't mention him as one of the top 5 QB's then I never would have even thought he was pro material. Very forgettable in my opinion. Usually a guy coming from a small school has a ton of buzz surrounding him if he's any good. Steve McNair, Tony Romo, Joe Flacco. We heard of all of those guys coming out. The only guy I can think of recently that was off the radar was Kappernick, but he had crazy athletic skills that wowed at the combine. Grayson just looks like an above average QB from a below average school. He doesn't have the ceiling that Petty or Hundley have. They are a gamble but I'm guessing at least one of them breaks through at the next level. Grayson just looks like a career backup to meI would agree. Seems very mediocre. Does not possess any above average talents. I just don't see it It's very easy to say that a QB will not pan out, especially after the top guys are gone as virtually all of the will not be successful NFL QBs. The fact is, you have to keep taking chances until you hit on one. You point to Tony Romo? He was so well thought of that he went undrafted? For every guy you tell me had a lot of "buzz" I can point to guys like Case Keenum, or Colt Brennan that absolutely tore up college ball but did nothing in the NFL.
WhitewalkerInPhilly Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 Good breakdown here http://billsmafia.com/2015/03/18/2015-nfl-draft-scouting-potential-buffalo-bills-target-qb-garrett-grayson/ I'm also a big fan of Quinn. And this was a pretty good rundown and explains why I'm hesitant about Grayson. His closest approximation seems to be Hoyer or Kolb. Maybe we'd take one as a veteran to hopefully help mentor a rookie, but I'm not drafting one to start. I've said it before and I'll say it again: The only difference between any QB after Winston and Mariota in this draft and EJ is that EJ is a project QB with two years in the league and 14 starts under his belt.
Doc Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 Sure, but imo many forget that before selecting EJ the Bills traded DOWN. This clearly indicates that the Bills were willing to take a chance on losing him. You just don't trade down when you are desperate for a QB, and relatively certain that your franchise QB is sitting there. It is very likely that they had someone (Smith?) rated about as high for them to have made that move. Winston is a head case no doubt and I would be worried about his character if I was thinking of drafting him, but he is 10x better than EJ. The expectations for EJ on this board are through the roof. That's great too but you and I saw the same thing with Losman, remember? Personally I think that Cassell will win the job and take us to the playoffs. We shall see, old friend. I think the BIlls looked at the draft order and knew that the odds were highly in their favor that EJ would still be there at 16, so that's why they traded down. And reportedly they were sweating bullets until then.
WhitewalkerInPhilly Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 I think the BIlls looked at the draft order and knew that the odds were highly in their favor that EJ would still be there at 16, so that's why they traded down. And reportedly they were sweating bullets until then. Buddy also went on record that they had gotten an offer to trade into the twenties for more picks but the didn't want to white knuckle it that much.
Garranimal Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 His football IQ is off the charts. He has been compared to Peyton Manning. http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000472988/article/steve-mariucci-jameis-winston-most-astute-xs-and-os-guy I am not a Jameis fan because I think that he is a little careless with the football and is an idiot off the field but he isn't dumb (or athletic). I think Winston is beyond Manning. Peyton was only accused of getting a little "handsy" with a female trainer in college, what an amatuer.
Gugny Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 I think Winston is beyond Manning. Peyton was only accused of getting a little "handsy" with a female trainer in college, what an amatuer. He put his balls in her mouth. That's a little more than "handsy!"
Garranimal Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 He put his balls in her mouth. That's a little more than "handsy!" Hey, that is ballsy right there!
Chuck Wagon Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 I think Whaley & co have it figured out. With a few rare exceptions (Peyton, Luck) franchise QBs don't just waltz into the league. Teams picking in the top 5 are often devoid of talent and leadership, they are rudderless ships who immediately heap unrealistic expectations on kids who aren't ready to handle the pressure. These kids get beat up behind poor lines, have poor receiver options, lose games, lose the fans support, lose their confidence and ultimately lose the organizations support. Compare that to the Steelers, Packers, Seahawks, Ravens or Pats. Big Ben, Rodgers, Wilson, Flacco & Brady came in to loaded teams. They immediately experienced success in roles that allowed them to merely be caretakers, they were allowed to progress as players and ultimately come into their own as the franchise QBs we know today. Obviously a QB needs to have the physical tools to make the throws, but at this level so much of what makes guys special is understanding what it takes to win and having the confidence to make it happen. With a few rare exceptions, that's not learned in college and carried into the league, that's learned in the league through having success and gaining repetitions. I think that's what separates the Oaklands/Clevelands/Jacksonvilles of the world from the Packers/Pats/Steelers. The Browns are spinning their wheels waiting for their savior, they keep taking guys every few years without having a proper foundation, heap the expectations of the world on them and set them up for failure. Whaley is breaking the cycle, he's not taking us out of being able to find our franchise QB, he's making it possible for it to happen. It's the same thing that happened with Seattle, they built their foundation, found a guy in Wilson, allowed him to play caretaker and now he's progressing beyond that level. Franchise QBs are not the NBA franchise player model. Smart organizations understand that, dumb ones will continue to fail until they figure it out. We are breaking the cycle, the Browns are waiting for a Lebron that isn't coming.
YoloinOhio Posted March 31, 2015 Author Posted March 31, 2015 (edited) I've never watched a Colorado state game and only saw part of the Sr. bowl so really have no opinion on grayson. We have 3 QBs now and needs elsewhere in the 2nd rd but with that said it's the most critical position on the team so I guess the more the better until it is solved. He could end up being the next Russel Wilson in terms of where he is picked and how he would need to win the job. Though it sounds like he would not be expected to compete for the starting role right away based on readiness. I'm more intrigued by the QBs who will be in the draft next year but if the bills take him, they must like him. Edited March 31, 2015 by YoloinOhio
WhitewalkerInPhilly Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 I think Whaley & co have it figured out. With a few rare exceptions (Peyton, Luck) franchise QBs don't just waltz into the league. Teams picking in the top 5 are often devoid of talent and leadership, they are rudderless ships who immediately heap unrealistic expectations on kids who aren't ready to handle the pressure. These kids get beat up behind poor lines, have poor receiver options, lose games, lose the fans support, lose their confidence and ultimately lose the organizations support. Compare that to the Steelers, Packers, Seahawks, Ravens or Pats. Big Ben, Rodgers, Wilson, Flacco & Brady came in to loaded teams. They immediately experienced success in roles that allowed them to merely be caretakers, they were allowed to progress as players and ultimately come into their own as the franchise QBs we know today. Obviously a QB needs to have the physical tools to make the throws, but at this level so much of what makes guys special is understanding what it takes to win and having the confidence to make it happen. With a few rare exceptions, that's not learned in college and carried into the league, that's learned in the league through having success and gaining repetitions. I think that's what separates the Oaklands/Clevelands/Jacksonvilles of the world from the Packers/Pats/Steelers. The Browns are spinning their wheels waiting for their savior, they keep taking guys every few years without having a proper foundation, heap the expectations of the world on them and set them up for failure. Whaley is breaking the cycle, he's not taking us out of being able to find our franchise QB, he's making it possible for it to happen. It's the same thing that happened with Seattle, they built their foundation, found a guy in Wilson, allowed him to play caretaker and now he's progressing beyond that level. Franchise QBs are not the NBA franchise player model. Smart organizations understand that, dumb ones will continue to fail until they figure it out. We are breaking the cycle, the Browns are waiting for a Lebron that isn't coming. +100 Seriously. Even teams like Philadelphia are considered in the mix for Mariota. There are ways to get your guy when you really are just one piece away. The Bills, right now, are not.
C.Biscuit97 Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 I think Whaley & co have it figured out. With a few rare exceptions (Peyton, Luck) franchise QBs don't just waltz into the league. Teams picking in the top 5 are often devoid of talent and leadership, they are rudderless ships who immediately heap unrealistic expectations on kids who aren't ready to handle the pressure. These kids get beat up behind poor lines, have poor receiver options, lose games, lose the fans support, lose their confidence and ultimately lose the organizations support. Compare that to the Steelers, Packers, Seahawks, Ravens or Pats. Big Ben, Rodgers, Wilson, Flacco & Brady came in to loaded teams. They immediately experienced success in roles that allowed them to merely be caretakers, they were allowed to progress as players and ultimately come into their own as the franchise QBs we know today. Obviously a QB needs to have the physical tools to make the throws, but at this level so much of what makes guys special is understanding what it takes to win and having the confidence to make it happen. With a few rare exceptions, that's not learned in college and carried into the league, that's learned in the league through having success and gaining repetitions. I think that's what separates the Oaklands/Clevelands/Jacksonvilles of the world from the Packers/Pats/Steelers. The Browns are spinning their wheels waiting for their savior, they keep taking guys every few years without having a proper foundation, heap the expectations of the world on them and set them up for failure. Whaley is breaking the cycle, he's not taking us out of being able to find our franchise QB, he's making it possible for it to happen. It's the same thing that happened with Seattle, they built their foundation, found a guy in Wilson, allowed him to play caretaker and now he's progressing beyond that level. Franchise QBs are not the NBA franchise player model. Smart organizations understand that, dumb ones will continue to fail until they figure it out. We are breaking the cycle, the Browns are waiting for a Lebron that isn't coming. Great post. People act like EJ threw more touchdowns than INTs (and led the league) and was 3-13. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannPe00.htm There are idiots here who would have called Peyton Manning a bust and wanted him gone after those rookie year stats. The sports world has been taken over by the Skip Bayless' mindset. A player struggles right away, much less a QB, who can call them a bust first!!! And Grayson is just another guy. If the Bills loved him, they would be as quiet as possible to show their interest.
Chuck Wagon Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 I've never watched a Colorado state game and only saw part of the Sr. bowl so really have no opinion on grayson. We have 3 QBs now and needs elsewhere in the 2nd rd but with that said it's the most critical position on the team so I guess the more the better until it is solved. He could end up being the next Russel Wilson in terms of where he is picked and how he would need to win the job. Though it sounds like he would not be expected to compete for the starting role right away based on readiness. I'm more intrigued by the QBs who will be in the draft next year but if the bills take him, they must like him. Big Ten country is going to be a heck of a place to be for QBs next fall. I think we both love Cardale's potential, but I'm worried for him the Browns have already anointed him as their football Lebron and will set him up to fail. Hackenburg is really interesting, though I fear he's going to get beat up and wrecked before he even hits the league. I'm not as high on Cook, but I admittedly find MSU's games unenjoyable to watch for the most part. I could stomach watching Tresselball when the Bucks were playing it, but watching a team I don't care for do it against the Iowas of the world leaves me watching SEC games 10 times out of 10. I need to watch more of Goff at Cal this fall and Gunner Kiel has me intrigued, I typically go for the guys who do more with less, over the Cody Kessler's of the world posting similar numbers throwing to early draft picks (and behind early draft picks).
C.Biscuit97 Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 Big Ten country is going to be a heck of a place to be for QBs next fall. I think we both love Cardale's potential, but I'm worried for him the Browns have already anointed him as their football Lebron and will set him up to fail. Hackenburg is really interesting, though I fear he's going to get beat up and wrecked before he even hits the league. I'm not as high on Cook, but I admittedly find MSU's games unenjoyable to watch for the most part. I could stomach watching Tresselball when the Bucks were playing it, but watching a team I don't care for do it against the Iowas of the world leaves me watching SEC games 10 times out of 10. I need to watch more of Goff at Cal this fall and Gunner Kiel has me intrigued, I typically go for the guys who do more with less, over the Cody Kessler's of the world posting similar numbers throwing to early draft picks (and behind early draft picks). I see tools in Cook but he is under a 60% passer in college. That's a problem. Is Cardale even going to win the job? And Hackenburg hasn't wowed me. A ton of time before next year. But this just in, it's hard to find a franchise qb. And to throw a guy away after 14 starts is just dumb.
YoloinOhio Posted March 31, 2015 Author Posted March 31, 2015 Big Ten country is going to be a heck of a place to be for QBs next fall. I think we both love Cardale's potential, but I'm worried for him the Browns have already anointed him as their football Lebron and will set him up to fail. Hackenburg is really interesting, though I fear he's going to get beat up and wrecked before he even hits the league. I'm not as high on Cook, but I admittedly find MSU's games unenjoyable to watch for the most part. I could stomach watching Tresselball when the Bucks were playing it, but watching a team I don't care for do it against the Iowas of the world leaves me watching SEC games 10 times out of 10. I need to watch more of Goff at Cal this fall and Gunner Kiel has me intrigued, I typically go for the guys who do more with less, over the Cody Kessler's of the world posting similar numbers throwing to early draft picks (and behind early draft picks). i have seen the most of Cook and decided sometime around October that he is My Guy as far as pure NFL qb prospect. However.... Thinking about Cardale jones in the Bills offense....filthy. I have to curb my enthusiasm. But it's pretty intriguing.
Chuck Wagon Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 Great post. People act like EJ threw more touchdowns than INTs (and led the league) and was 3-13. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannPe00.htm There are idiots here who would have called Peyton Manning a bust and wanted him gone after those rookie year stats. The sports world has been taken over by the Skip Bayless' mindset. A player struggles right away, much less a QB, who can call them a bust first!!! And Grayson is just another guy. If the Bills loved him, they would be as quiet as possible to show their interest. Whaley knows how to play the game. I've gotta believe if he's allowing there to be smoke around Grayson and coming out saying he doesn't think the 3rd best QB is that far behind Mariota, it's for a reason. There was not much smoke around EJ when we took him until just before the draft. There's a guy he's got his eye on and it's not Garret Grayson. It's the chicken or the egg theory and most people misunderstand it. You need to have a heck of a chicken (a first class organization) to get a prize winning egg. There's a few rare exceptions of fantastic eggs making themselves, but people confuse that as the rule. I'd love to see an alternate reality where guys like David Carr and Tim Couch came into organizations like the Steelers or Packers, instead of expansion teams devoid of talent.
C.Biscuit97 Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 Whaley knows how to play the game. I've gotta believe if he's allowing there to be smoke around Grayson and coming out saying he doesn't think the 3rd best QB is that far behind Mariota, it's for a reason. There was not much smoke around EJ when we took him until just before the draft. There's a guy he's got his eye on and it's not Garret Grayson. It's the chicken or the egg theory and most people misunderstand it. You need to have a heck of a chicken (a first class organization) to get a prize winning egg. There's a few rare exceptions of fantastic eggs making themselves, but people confuse that as the rule. I'd love to see an alternate reality where guys like David Carr and Tim Couch came into organizations like the Steelers or Packers, instead of expansion teams devoid of talent. Agreed again. Folks pretend like every situation is the same when they are compeltely different. If EJ goes to Philly, for instance, as a 2nd rounder and learns under Kelly, he is probably a much different player. It happens all the time. Russell Wilson isn't the same player in Jacksonville. That said, assuming the oline gets ironed up, there are no excuses for a QB this year. Personally, the idea of wasting a higher pick on a so so QB makes me annoyed.
Chuck Wagon Posted March 31, 2015 Posted March 31, 2015 I see tools in Cook but he is under a 60% passer in college. That's a problem. Is Cardale even going to win the job? And Hackenburg hasn't wowed me. A ton of time before next year. But this just in, it's hard to find a franchise qb. And to throw a guy away after 14 starts is just dumb. The vibe here in Columbus puts me in a spot where I'd be very surprised if Cardale isn't the guy. People appreciate all Braxton has done and JT is very well respected for his decision making, but Cardale just has the "it" factor and is going to get the bulk of first team reps the entire offseason program. The offense looked completely different with Cardale at QB and it was running the same plays it had all year, his arm strikes fear in defenses the way the other two guys don't, which opens up everything underneath for Elliot / Marshall / Wilson.
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