thebandit27 Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 I don't need to see EJ go through another training camp and regular season to know believe he doesn't have "it." The basics a QB needs to enter the NFL with aren't there, specifically accuracy, touch on passes, an ability to read defenses, throwing receivers open et al. Most people understand EJ was a project, but after 2 off-seasons and regular seasons, there isn't a whole lot of improvement there. People blame that on Marrone and his staff, but it's more than that. But I know there will always be those who will wait until the bitter end before declaring the player incapable of being good. I just don't subscribe to that rationale. This phenomenon occurred with Losman back around 2006-07. People wanted him to succeed, held onto every small success tightly, but ultimately the guy didn't pan out. There...I went ahead and fixed that in an effort to re-state my point in a way that is a bit clearer.
eball Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 This, to me, is the crux of the argument about EJ. He can do things once in awhile, but not consistently enough to ever be a good NFL QB. And I see the blaming of Marrone continues, as if the player was an innocent bystander and his success or failure was predicated primarily on the game plan. Some guys have all the physical attributes you look for but don't have the recognition skills. I think EJ fits into that group, but that probably makes me a "hater." I think the error in your (and others') analysis of EJ is that you make this statement as if it is fact. Fact: EJ hasn't played in enough NFL games for anyone to know whether he can do things consistently enough to be a good NFL QB -- and he has had arguably substandard coaching as well. He has less than a full season's worth of games under his belt. Year 3 is a good measuring stick for the development of QBs, and we should allow that to play itself out before presuming EJ will "never" be a good enough starting QB.
BuffaloHokie13 Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 I don't have a single issue with any of your stats except that you fail to mention that the "With Roman Years" are also the same as "With Jim Harbaugh Years".....so the data has more than one changing/influencing variable. Harbaugh may be a quarterback whisperer or something I suppose, but I would imagine that Greg Roman's QB friendly system was a large contributing factor. With emphasis on the run game and simplified half field reads to start, the system eases transition QB's in. The difference is what we saw with Kaep. As the QB goes on in the system and gets asked to do more can he keep up? That we will have to wait and see no matter who comes out of camp as the starter.
thebandit27 Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 EJ needs another season before we move on..... or else it is a waste of a QB draft pick. Whether he does or not, he's going to get it, as it'd be remarkably stupid IMO for the team to take a $3M cap hit to cut the guy. I think the error in your (and others') analysis of EJ is that you make this statement as if it is fact. Good luck with that; I pointed that out and was basically told that, indeed, it is a fact.
BillsVet Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 EJ was a raw QB who needed professional coaching to develop and he got a man who was so stupid, he quit an NFL head coaching job and ended up as the offensive line coach of the Jacksonville Jaguars. Yes, of course EJ is to ultimately blame for not being good right now. However, Doug Marrone has clearly proven to everyone that he's an extremely stupid man and he was the one in charge of EJ's development. That alone should cool the jets of the haters to take a wait and see approach. Ever since Marrone imploded, I've always contended that if that dumb ox thinks EJ sucks then there's probably a very good chance he'll end up to be a great one. Are you saying that Russ Brandon is bad at making football decisions, specifically on HC's then?
bschmoove Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 If we see Cassel, the season is already lost. Go EJ.
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 If we see Cassel, the season is already lost. Go EJ. Might I suggest that you find a different team to root for in 2015 since you have given up already.
FireChan Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 I'm not sure what this means. In his first 5 years in the league, Alex Smith made his way onto lists of "top 10 QB busts of all time" , at #5 ahead of Jabustus Russell fercripesake. http://www.realclearsports.com/lists/top_ten_QB_busts/alex_smith.html?state=play Now he's a QB who can take (the Chiefs) to the Superbowl http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/03/28/chiefs-see-andy-reid-and-alex-smith-as-a-super-bowl-combination/ Fortuna statu variabilis or something like that Smith bouncing back from bust status is an outlier. And Alex Smith, by virtue of being #1 overall, must have been a better prospect than EJ. Two separate statements.
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 (edited) Are you saying that Russ Brandon is bad at making football decisions, specifically on HC's then? We might be saying Brandon and co wanted EJ to sit and develop but EJ was thrust into the starting lineup because all the OLD guys brought in could not stay healthy enough to start in week 1. And in doing so the coaching staff was not up to par to give EJ and Orton said opportunity to succeed. is there a way to see what team led the league in 3 and outs last season? Edited March 30, 2015 by BillsFan-4-Ever
John from Riverside Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 What I want to see is the EJ Manuel that is willing to run with the ball when he doesnt see it down field I thought he was really starting to put it together in that Browns game before he got hurt
ko12010 Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 Smith bouncing back from bust status is an outlier. And Alex Smith, by virtue of being #1 overall, must have been a better prospect than EJ. Two separate statements. Well actually the draft 'experts' were saying either Rodgers or Smith could go number 1 overall, Smith wasn't the clear cut favorite over Rodgers. So technically you could think of Smith as being a prospect worthy of the 24th overall pick, which is where Rodgers went. The 49ers were desperate for a QB.
QuoteTheRaven83 Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 EJ needs another season before we move on..... or else it is a waste of a QB draft pick. He needs another FULL season where he actually plays the ENTIRE season. I agree
FireChan Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 Well actually the draft 'experts' were saying either Rodgers or Smith could go number 1 overall, Smith wasn't the clear cut favorite over Rodgers. So technically you could think of Smith as being a prospect worthy of the 24th overall pick, which is where Rodgers went. The 49ers were desperate for a QB. Rodgers didn't play for his first 3 years? You can't just switch his draft spot in your head. He went #1. Period. Unless we can say, "it could've been EJ or Geno, so EJ is technically a second rounder." No.
QuoteTheRaven83 Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 (edited) The problem with EJ is not the lifting of the back foot, it's the occasional leaning backwards on throws where pressure was in front of him. IMO, that's correctable and it looks like he's putting the serious work in to smooth out the roughness he came in the league with. At least that's one off season box (putting the work in) being checked. This. It's obvious that you and i see the same thing. The problem with his accuracy issues is that he leans back on his back foot when he throws, when he should be leaning forward. His weight distribution is off in my opinion. Edited March 30, 2015 by QuoteTheRaven83
1billsfan Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 Ha, yes, the guy with a coaching job in the NFL is a lot worse at evaluating talent than you are. You trust the opinion of a guy who went from NFL head coach to offensive line coach for the worst team in the league by choice. I don't.
ko12010 Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 This. It's obvious that you and i see the same thing. The problem with his accuracy issues is that he leans back on his back foot when he throws, when he should be leaning forward. His weight distribution is off in my opinion. This is not something he does every throw. It's once in a while, and honestly, sometimes there is not a better option when pressure is coming in your face. The best solution to avoid this would be to continue improving on his pocket mobility in order to find a slot to step up into, even if it's not a big one.
Rockinon Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 EJ's problem was never arm-strength. His problem is reading defenses, and trusting his reads. This video shows that he is working on his strengths. Not too helpful EJ does not have a problem reading defenses. I hear that a lot around here. When you watch his games from last year, you can see that he was waiting for his guy to be wide open and throwing too late. That's what you do when you have a coach always harping on you about playing safe. Frankly, EJ just needs to let it rip. Let this new coaching staff work with him. The kid has accuracy and he does know how to read a defense. His biggest issue is just settling down and playing ball...something he was never really given a chance to do. He hasn't even played 3/4 of a full season consecutively. The only thing we don't know is how good he can really be. And the only way to know that is to let him play. I do think though, that Cassel is going to push him. That's a good thing.
CodeMonkey Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 (edited) I think the error in your (and others') analysis of EJ is that you make this statement as if it is fact. Fact: EJ hasn't played in enough NFL games for anyone to know whether he can do things consistently enough to be a good NFL QB -- and he has had arguably substandard coaching as well. He has less than a full season's worth of games under his belt. Year 3 is a good measuring stick for the development of QBs, and we should allow that to play itself out before presuming EJ will "never" be a good enough starting QB. Hopefully it doesn't come to this but, if Manuel doesn't show anything this year either will it be time to admit a mistake and move on, or will we be hearing this time next year how it wasn't really year 3 for him because of not playing enough the first two years, or Marrone/Hackett stunted his growth as a QB, and other reasons? I just get the feeling it will be the latter from a lot of people here. Edited March 30, 2015 by CodeMonkey
QuoteTheRaven83 Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 This is not something he does every throw. It's once in a while, and honestly, sometimes there is not a better option when pressure is coming in your face. The best solution to avoid this would be to continue improving on his pocket mobility in order to find a slot to step up into, even if it's not a big one. This is something that should NEVER be done, and is definitely where his inconsistencies come from.
FireChan Posted March 30, 2015 Posted March 30, 2015 You trust the opinion of a guy who went from NFL head coach to offensive line coach for the worst team in the league by choice. I don't. That's not what happened in reality.
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