thebandit27 Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 This, to me, is the crux of the argument about EJ. He can do things once in awhile, but not consistently enough to ever be a good NFL QB. And I see the blaming of Marrone continues, as if the player was an innocent bystander and his success or failure was predicated primarily on the game plan. Some guys have all the physical attributes you look for but don't have the recognition skills. I think EJ fits into that group, but that probably makes me a "hater." The problem isn't with your opinion; it's the way you state it. Claiming that he can't do things consistently is fine. Stating that he cannot ever develop that consistency as a fact is where the argument comes off as inauthentic at the very least. I actually share what I believe is the exact same opinion: EJ just hasn't displayed enough consistency to be a franchise QB at this point. There's zero reason to say for certain that he cannot develop that. I'm 50/50 on whether or not he will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garranimal Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 I see your Rex Ryan and raise you a Greg Roman. If you get bored some time you should look at Alex Smith's stats before and after Greg Roman Every "look at Alex Smith" comment can be countered with "look at Colin Kapernick". I don't know much about Greg Roman, but I am hesitant to hitch my wagon-load off hopes to him. In this argument, and many like it, I think a coach can look like a complete genius if he starts with a QB who is smart, reads the field and is accurate. Put any system around a guy like that (run and shoot, K-Gun, west coast, greatest show on turf, anything Brady runs) and you have a decent chance at success. But when you start out with a guy who doesn't excel in reading the field and who isn't accurate......no matter the system, the results seem to trend toward the same results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 You mean like this... But his back foot is down. Damn good technique. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garranimal Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 But his back foot is down. Damn good technique. This video still cracks me up.....kinda like the Jameis Winston and the Wrestler one! What makes me uncomfortable is that this is the guy that our new HC was "all in" with! There is a lot to be excited about this off-season.....but also a lot to be concerned with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 (edited) This, to me, is the crux of the argument about EJ. He can do things once in awhile, but not consistently enough to ever be a good NFL QB. And I see the blaming of Marrone continues, as if the player was an innocent bystander and his success or failure was predicated primarily on the game plan. Some guys have all the physical attributes you look for but don't have the recognition skills. I think EJ fits into that group, but that probably makes me a "hater." and on and on we go. the crux of the argument about EJ is people have written him off as a total bust after a small sampling of time. Quite a few still think that EJ might stand a chance to become a good QB in Buffalo. No one is guaranteeing it (to my knowledge) either. So those who have not given up will have to argue with those who call him a bust and on and on we go until this 2015 season comes to a close and we hopefully will have our answer. I won't even bring up the coaching or lack there of aspect. Edited March 30, 2015 by BillsFan-4-Ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloHokie13 Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Every "look at Alex Smith" comment can be countered with "look at Colin Kapernick". I don't know much about Greg Roman, but I am hesitant to hitch my wagon-load off hopes to him. In this argument, and many like it, I think a coach can look like a complete genius if he starts with a QB who is smart, reads the field and is accurate. Put any system around a guy like that (run and shoot, K-Gun, west coast, greatest show on turf, anything Brady runs) and you have a decent chance at success. But when you start out with a guy who doesn't excel in reading the field and who isn't accurate......no matter the system, the results seem to trend toward the same results. Colin Kaepernick declined as he was asked to do more, especially from the pocket. The reason I point to Alex Smith is because he was there before Roman so you can see distinct changes in his stat lines. Alex Smith Pre-Roman (6 Years): 57.1% Completion (864/1514), 6.21 YPA, 51 TD, 53 INT (3.50%), Highest QBR for a season in that span: 47.3 Alex Smith with Roman (2 Years): 64.3% Completion (426/663), 7.36 YPA, 30 TD, 10 INT (1.51%), Highest QBR for a season in that span: 69.4 Alex Smith Post Roman (2 Years w/ Andy Reid): 62.9% Completion (611/972), 6.77 YPA, 43 TD, 13 INT (1.34%), Highest QBR for a season in that span: 49.4 EJ Manuel: 58.6% Completion (256/437), 6.43 YPA, 16 TD, 12 INT (2.75%), Highest QBR for a season: 42.3 What about the bold stats makes early Alex Smith more redeemable than EJ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 What about the bold stats makes early Alex Smith more redeemable than EJ? confounding isn't it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Colin Kaepernick declined as he was asked to do more, especially from the pocket. The reason I point to Alex Smith is because he was there before Roman so you can see distinct changes in his stat lines. Alex Smith Pre-Roman (6 Years): 57.1% Completion (864/1514), 6.21 YPA, 51 TD, 53 INT (3.50%), Highest QBR for a season in that span: 47.3 Alex Smith with Roman (2 Years): 64.3% Completion (426/663), 7.36 YPA, 30 TD, 10 INT (1.51%), Highest QBR for a season in that span: 69.4 Alex Smith Post Roman (2 Years w/ Andy Reid): 62.9% Completion (611/972), 6.77 YPA, 43 TD, 13 INT (1.34%), Highest QBR for a season in that span: 49.4 EJ Manuel: 58.6% Completion (256/437), 6.43 YPA, 16 TD, 12 INT (2.75%), Highest QBR for a season: 42.3 What about the bold stats makes early Alex Smith more redeemable than EJ? Alex Smith was the first overall pick, and, in all probability, an outlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Probably should have pulled him before. I'm still surprised EJ survived that game. I know it man he looked bad in that game. I mean like Aaron Rodgers vs the bills d bad....just plain bad... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloHokie13 Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Alex Smith was the first overall pick, and, in all probability, an outlier. True, but you've got to admit he was pretty terrible for those first 6 years haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Colin Kaepernick declined as he was asked to do more, especially from the pocket. The reason I point to Alex Smith is because he was there before Roman so you can see distinct changes in his stat lines. Alex Smith Pre-Roman (6 Years): 57.1% Completion (864/1514), 6.21 YPA, 51 TD, 53 INT (3.50%), Highest QBR for a season in that span: 47.3 Alex Smith with Roman (2 Years): 64.3% Completion (426/663), 7.36 YPA, 30 TD, 10 INT (1.51%), Highest QBR for a season in that span: 69.4 Alex Smith Post Roman (2 Years w/ Andy Reid): 62.9% Completion (611/972), 6.77 YPA, 43 TD, 13 INT (1.34%), Highest QBR for a season in that span: 49.4 EJ Manuel: 58.6% Completion (256/437), 6.43 YPA, 16 TD, 12 INT (2.75%), Highest QBR for a season: 42.3 What about the bold stats makes early Alex Smith more redeemable than EJ? You clearly aren't aware of the "eyeball test". It supersedes these silly attempts to use measurements to quantify the unquantifiable. You just "know"... Like Russell Wilson and Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Drew brees, etc... it was obvious to all accross the land they would be Super Bowl champs from their first season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 True, but you've got to admit he was pretty terrible for those first 6 years haha Yes, it was quite a shock that he turned it around. It'd be like Mark Sanchez turning into a franchise guy. Very odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1billsfan Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 This, to me, is the crux of the argument about EJ. He can do things once in awhile, but not consistently enough to ever be a good NFL QB. And I see the blaming of Marrone continues, as if the player was an innocent bystander and his success or failure was predicated primarily on the game plan. Some guys have all the physical attributes you look for but don't have the recognition skills. I think EJ fits into that group, but that probably makes me a "hater." EJ was a raw QB who needed professional coaching to develop and he got a man who was so stupid, he quit an NFL head coaching job and ended up as the offensive line coach of the Jacksonville Jaguars. Yes, of course EJ is to ultimately blame for not being good right now. However, Doug Marrone has clearly proven to everyone that he's an extremely stupid man and he was the one in charge of EJ's development. That alone should cool the jets of the haters to take a wait and see approach. Ever since Marrone imploded, I've always contended that if that dumb ox thinks EJ sucks then there's probably a very good chance he'll end up to be a great one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 EJ was a raw QB who needed professional coaching to develop and he got a man who was so stupid, he quit an NFL head coaching job and ended up as the offensive line coach of the Jacksonville Jaguars. Yes, of course EJ is to ultimately blame for not being good right now. However, Doug Marrone has clearly proven to everyone that he's an extremely stupid man and he was the one in charge of EJ's development. That alone should cool the jets of the haters to take a wait and see approach. Ever since Marrone imploded, I've always contended that if that dumb ox thinks EJ sucks then there's probably a very good chance he'll end up to be a great one. Ha, yes, the guy with a coaching job in the NFL is a lot worse at evaluating talent than you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 what are Maroone and Hackit doing these days? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Yes, it was quite a shock that he turned it around. It'd be like Mark Sanchez turning into a franchise guy. Very odd. That is the point with Smith. His transformation was odd and there were a number of factors at play. I remember reading something from Roman, way before he was associated with the Bills saying that part of the key with Smith had been getting him to simplyfy his thought process. I think Roman and Harbaugh were better communicators than anyone Smith had coaching him before and somethign they said made the light flick on. Are there other cases? Sure... but the stats back up that most guys don't suddenly click after 5 or 6 years. The number however who "get it" in year 3 is higher... Eli Manning for example. If there are no signs of progress with EJ in year 3 and he is not the Bills starter by the year's end for any reason other than Matt Cassel reproducing his career year from 2010 then I think the chances are he will not be on the roster by opening day 2016. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garranimal Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 (edited) Colin Kaepernick declined as he was asked to do more, especially from the pocket. The reason I point to Alex Smith is because he was there before Roman so you can see distinct changes in his stat lines. Alex Smith Pre-Roman (6 Years): 57.1% Completion (864/1514), 6.21 YPA, 51 TD, 53 INT (3.50%), Highest QBR for a season in that span: 47.3 Alex Smith with Roman (2 Years): 64.3% Completion (426/663), 7.36 YPA, 30 TD, 10 INT (1.51%), Highest QBR for a season in that span: 69.4 Alex Smith Post Roman (2 Years w/ Andy Reid): 62.9% Completion (611/972), 6.77 YPA, 43 TD, 13 INT (1.34%), Highest QBR for a season in that span: 49.4 EJ Manuel: 58.6% Completion (256/437), 6.43 YPA, 16 TD, 12 INT (2.75%), Highest QBR for a season: 42.3 What about the bold stats makes early Alex Smith more redeemable than EJ? I don't have a single issue with any of your stats except that you fail to mention that the "With Roman Years" are also the same as "With Jim Harbaugh Years".....so the data has more than one changing/influencing variable. Edited March 30, 2015 by Garranimal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Alex Smith was the first overall pick, and, in all probability, an outlier. I'm not sure what this means. In his first 5 years in the league, Alex Smith made his way onto lists of "top 10 QB busts of all time" , at #5 ahead of Jabustus Russell fercripesake. http://www.realclearsports.com/lists/top_ten_QB_busts/alex_smith.html?state=play Now he's a QB who can take (the Chiefs) to the Superbowl http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/03/28/chiefs-see-andy-reid-and-alex-smith-as-a-super-bowl-combination/ Fortuna statu variabilis or something like that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsVet Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 The problem isn't with your opinion; it's the way you state it. Claiming that he can't do things consistently is fine. Stating that he cannot ever develop that consistency as a fact is where the argument comes off as inauthentic at the very least. I actually share what I believe is the exact same opinion: EJ just hasn't displayed enough consistency to be a franchise QB at this point. There's zero reason to say for certain that he cannot develop that. I'm 50/50 on whether or not he will. I don't need to see EJ go through another training camp and regular season to know he doesn't have "it." The basics a QB needs to enter the NFL with aren't there, specifically accuracy, touch on passes, an ability to read defenses, throwing receivers open et al. Most people understand EJ was a project, but after 2 off-seasons and regular seasons, there isn't a whole lot of improvement there. People blame that on Marrone and his staff, but it's more than that. But I know there will always be those who will wait until the bitter end before declaring the player incapable of being good. I just don't subscribe to that rationale. This phenomenon occurred with Losman back around 2006-07. People wanted him to succeed, held onto every small success tightly, but ultimately the guy didn't pan out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iraq Vet Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 EJ needs another season before we move on..... or else it is a waste of a QB draft pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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