Whaley not happy Bills haven't done more to address OL

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Whaley: Offensive line a 'loss' in otherwise winning offseason for Bills

 

@viccarucci: Doug Whaley not happy #Bills didn't do more to address OL: http://t.co/0YBcGeTMEf

 

We got Ritchie what else do we need

 

Hopefully get Jake Fisher

Edited March 26, 2015 by Buffalo Barbarian

[Go-Bills]

I'm sure he wishes they would have been able to get Bulaga or one of the big ticket FAs they wanted, but I think the line will be improved by the time they play a game.

Agree with you! they are youg and only going to get better.

[Coach Tuesday]

Look, in reality, while offensive line is a critical position group and building block, it really shouldn't be this hard to find quality offensive linemen. They need to do a deep 360 review of their talent scouting in that area - both college and pro personnel - in an effort to understand why they haven't been more successful. It could be as simple as looking for the wrong types of players to fit a particular purported scheme (i.e., Marrone's bizarre zone-block-with-big-maulers philosophy), or it could be something else entirely (dead weight in the scouting department leftover from the Ralph years). I don't know - but they need to solve it. These guys aren't that hard to find, except for elite LTs, and the Bills have one (potentially two) quality LTs. We're mainly talking about interior linemen and the RT spot and geebus, it shouldn't be that hard to find something better than what they put out there last season. And I'm fine with the Richie signing but the guy was out of football last year and I have zero confidence he'll be able to regain his (mediocre) form when he finally hits the field. They shouldn't need to sign a semi-expelled vet or attempt to trade for an aging bloated contract just to find a serviceable freakin' guard!

Edited March 26, 2015 by Coach Tuesday

[NoSaint]

This is pretty spot on. There are also some OLmen on the roster that aren't listed here. Someone may surprise this year.

 

The Mario restructure is being saved for the signing of Marcel.

Unless your talking extension instead of restructure, there's not a whole lot of wiggle with him come next year. You'd only be able to amortize over the 2 year period. So if you take 5m off his 20m hit the following year shoots up to 20+

[Doc]

They basically all were busts. Just because one of them started doesn't mean he was any good at what he did on the field. The man graded like a 7th rounder in that he finished the season as bad as Erik Pears did at OG, and that was one of the worst players at his position in the entire league (54th of 56th). There was a real reason the Bills graded as the 30th line in the league, and they were worst with Richardson in the lineup.

 

Even Doug Whaley admits that the Bills went after that GB RT in Bryan Bulaga, and a top OG so he knew they needed upgrades for the line. You don't make the top FA OT an offer if you don't need him.

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/164148/andrew-brandt-bills-offered-bryan-bulaga-more-than-packers

 

"The second was an attempt to trade for (OG) Jhari Evans of the New Orleans Saints, but they instead chose to move Ben Grubbs to the Kansas City Chiefs."

 

http://bills.buffalonews.com/2015/03/24/whaley-offensive-line-a-loss-in-otherwise-winning-offseason-for-bills/

 

Apparently the GM doesn't have that much faith that those rookies can be coached up to an acceptable level if he wanted to replace them. Now without the monies to make any further moves the team is stuck with what they have on the roster, or to make moves in the draft. Considering the results of last seasons draft I have little faith the team will find the talent required for the line. This GM and scouting dept knows defensive talent, and are very poor with the offensive side.

Again, 5th and 7th rounders can't really be called "busts." Kujo as a rookie could, but it's far to early to write him off. And Henderson's position just might be LT, but again, I'll wait until he's had a full off- and pre-season at RT with a competent coaching staff before passing judgement on him being a "bust."

And if the Bills go into the season with a line of Glenn-Incognito-Wood-Urbik-Henderson, I'd be fine with it. Three of those positions will be upgraded (Incog at LG, Urbik back at RG, Henderson no longer a rookie and having worked all off- and pre-season at RT), while Glenn probably won't suffer another mystery illness that hampers him and Wood doesn't have to compensate for poor OG play. So I guess you could say all 5 positions will be upgraded. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't try to improve them still.

[thebandit27]

 

Why not stick to a few good points and don't stir up a positive goulash of anguish-past studded with selective memory about recent talent acquisition?

 

Wow...razor-sharp literal wit Hopeful...accurate too!

 

 

Look, in reality, while offensive line is a critical position group and building block, it really shouldn't be this hard to find quality offensive linemen. They need to do a deep 360 review of their talent scouting in that area - both college and pro personnel - in an effort to understand why they haven't been more successful. It could be as simple as looking for the wrong types of players to fit a particular purported scheme (i.e., Marrone's bizarre zone-block-with-big-maulers philosophy), or it could be something else entirely (dead weight in the scouting department leftover from the Ralph years). I don't know - but they need to solve it. These guys aren't that hard to find, except for elite LTs, and the Bills have one (potentially two) quality LTs. We're mainly talking about interior linemen and the RT spot and geebus, it shouldn't be that hard to find something better than what they put out there last season. And I'm fine with the Richie signing but the guy was out of football last year and I have zero confidence he'll be able to regain his (mediocre) form when he finally hits the field. They shouldn't need to sign a semi-expelled vet or attempt to trade for an aging bloated contract just to find a serviceable freakin' guard!

From what I understand, Marrone was a "get me the biggest guys available" type of OL coach. Makes sense, because that meshed with Nix's vision along the OL as well.

 

I believe it was Marrone that wanted Chris Williams (who, despite what many say, was the team's best OG last year...it's no coincidence that the run game went south after he got hurt).

 

Regarding the difficulty in finding guards, I agree. Most of the very good guards have been mid-round picks. I don't think it takes a huge investment, but spending a 3rd rounder on a guy like Gabe Jackson last year worked out very well for the Raiders. Same the previous year for Detroit and Larry Warford.

[BillsBytheBay]

Are you confusing effort with results?

coach made the no effort comment. Yolo just stated their haven't been results.

 

The last of line guys we've brought in over the last few years has been just ok, but....

We drafted C.Glenn, brought in three LG's in 3 years, drafted wood, ...... Soo many guys. The revolving door of our oline isn't just on the way to the QB, its employment.

 

Damn. Lots of effort.......let's get some results

[GunnerBill]

I believe it was Marrone that wanted Chris Williams (who, despite what many say, was the team's best OG last year...it's no coincidence that the run game went south after he got hurt).

 

Regarding the difficulty in finding guards, I agree. Most of the very good guards have been mid-round picks. I don't think it takes a huge investment, but spending a 3rd rounder on a guy like Gabe Jackson last year worked out very well for the Raiders. Same the previous year for Detroit and Larry Warford.

 

First things first - you are right on Chris Williams and I actually think he would have proved to be just about serviceable had he stayed healthy. I think they gave him too much money, especially given his injury histroy, but he was better than what came after him.

 

I actually noticed this when I was looking into the o-linemne who might be available to the Bills in FA..... very few 1st round picks or indeed 2nd orunders... lots of mid round and even a few late round guys and interestingly not many of them shone in year 1. I think Henderson will prove to be a good NFL level tackle, Richardson I have some hope for.... Kujo worries me. I didn't much like him coming out and the pre-season and camp last year were every bit as bad as I feared.

[FireChan]

Buddy was not GM in '09. He was new to the organization as a scout that year. If you want to tie Whaley to Buddy then going back to '10 is more appropriate.

He was still here. He was part of the Maybin team.

[Buftex]

just makes me like whaley more.

also make me worry rex / pegula had too much control.

I feel kind of the same way. Hard not to be excited by the moves this off-season, but in the back of my mind, I wonder how many of these moves are Whaley, and how many are Rex. Rex certainly seems to have a lot more control over the roster than Marrone did. The fact that, as far as we know, the Pegulas are still open to the idea of a "football guru" to look over personnel decisions (the GM's job) tells me that Doug Whaley might not be embedded into that job, necessarily. It almost seems like Rex is the co-GM... if they don't make the playoffs this year, or have a damn good season at least, I can see Whaley being out. Not condoning it mind you...I like the guy a lot. Of course, the infusion of so much money is the new element which makes it hard to know for certain who is calling what shots... we haven't really experienced this before.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

they may not need to reach. In the mocks I have done, BPA at 50 is a OL. Draft guys are projecting lots of skill players and edge rushers in the 1st and that would push linemen down. Let's hope.

 

There's also the point that "BPA" is to some extent an artificial construct. How do you compare the talents of a DB, a OL, and a TE to decide which is the "best available"? There's a huge element of subjectivity there.

 

I think the team's needs always influence the perception of "best player available". As long as we've quit with the "we're smarter than everyone else and will pick obscure players 2 rounds ahead of where they were projected to go while waiting until the 5th round to draft an equally obscure OLmen" crap of 2010 and before.

[thebandit27]

 

There's also the point that "BPA" is to some extent an artificial construct. How do you compare the talents of a DB, a OL, and a TE to decide which is the "best available"? There's a huge element of subjectivity there.

 

I think the team's needs always influence the perception of "best player available". As long as we've quit with the "we're smarter than everyone else and will pick obscure players 2 rounds ahead of where they were projected to go while waiting until the 5th round to draft an equally obscure OLmen" crap of 2010 and before.

 

Generally, teams that draft BPA are basically saying that they're taking the guy with the highest overall grade.

 

Here's a really good article on the process if you're interested:

 

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2014/3/6/5473554/2014-nfl-draft-scouting-process-big-board

[NoSaint]

Chris Williams (who, despite what many say, was the team's best OG last year...)

i think that it would be challenging to make a case for anyone else? i havent seen anyone arguing that richardson or pears was their best OG.... maybe Urbik?

 

thats not to say hes a particularly good OG though.

 

id also correlate the run game going south to injuries to the backs, and gathering some fresh data for 2015s tendencies for d coordinators to scheme against.

[Billy in 4C]

We signed Urbik to backup money so I don't think he starts. I think we go with:

 

LT - Glenn

LG - Williams

C - Wood

RG - Incognito

RT - Henderson

 

Use Urbik, Richardson, draft pick as backup/developmental on the inside

Use Kujo/draft pick as backup/development on the outside

We make Richie a RG even though he has been a LG to help out Henderson

[RuntheDamnBall]

When do we get Avon Barksdale? Our OL needs to be ruthless. Dude could put on some weight though.

[jumbalaya]

Whaley is disappointed? Is he going to bitchslap himself?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Buddy was here in '09. Whaley is Buddy's hand-picked successor. Now, I'm of the opinion that Buddy was an alright GM, but he was here, and Whaley was groomed by him to replace him. It ain't the exact same FO, but it's not a completely different one with no ties to the previous regimes either.

 

Jan 2009 Buddy Nix brought in as "National Scout" under VP of college Scouting Tom Modrak and VP of pro personnel John Guy.

Dec 2009 Buddy Nix promoted to GM, Brandon pushed up the ladder to President/CEO

Jan 2010 VP of Pro Personnel John Guy fired, Doug Whaley hired as Assistant GM/Director of Pro Personnel

May 2011 Tom Modrak fired, Whaley given oversight of Player Personnel. Tom Gibbons hired as Director of Pro Personnel (Chargers); Chuck Cook as Director of College Scouting

May 2013 Whaley replaces Nix as GM, Tom Monos (Saints) hired as Director of Player Personnel and Kelvin Fisher (Pittsburg) as Director of College Scouting (Cook becomes "National Scout")

January 2015 Tom Gibbons fired as Director of Pro Personnel (not clear if someone /who has replaced him?)

 

It's not clear to me who brought in Whaley. Whaley was first hired as a Pittsburgh scouting intern by Tom Donahue and (I think) knew Modrak during his first stint with Pittsburgh, but Whaley doesn't mention Modrak as a particular mentor or influence that I've run into. If there's a Nix connection I haven't found it, except I'm sure all these guys know each other.

 

It sort of sounds as though you want a "clean sweep" and object to anyone being there who has connections to the Losing Years of the Horrid Drafts but I'm not sure one can find that. Most of the FO of teams seem like a highly interconnected weave of spaghetti.

 

IMO the key people to follow are the Director (or VP or whatever) of Player Personnel, the Director of Pro Personnel, and the Director of College Scouting. Those are the guys who take all the film and scouting reports and summarize it along with their recommendations to the GM, and May 2013 when Whaley was promoted to GM represents a key point where there was turnover, with Whaley bringing in "his guys". So the 2014 draft was clearly a "buck stops here" place for Whaley, with his hand picked College Scouting guy running the show.

 

There has actually been a lot of turnover in the player personnel FO of the Bills of recent, with key points in Jan 2010 (Nix as GM, Guy fired, Whaley brought in), May 2011 (Whaley role expanded, Modrak fired, Gibbons and Cook brought in), May 2013 (Whaley as GM, Monos and Fisher hired), and Jan 2015 (Gibbons fired).

[FireChan]

 

Jan 2009 Buddy Nix brought in as "National Scout" under VP of college Scouting Tom Modrak and VP of pro personnel John Guy.

Dec 2009 Buddy Nix promoted to GM, Brandon pushed up the ladder to President/CEO

Jan 2010 VP of Pro Personnel John Guy fired, Doug Whaley hired as Assistant GM/Director of Pro Personnel

May 2011 Tom Modrak fired, Whaley given oversight of Player Personnel. Tom Gibbons hired as Director of Pro Personnel (Chargers); Chuck Cook as Director of College Scouting

May 2013 Whaley replaces Nix as GM, Tom Monos (Saints) hired as Director of Player Personnel and Kelvin Fisher (Pittsburg) as Director of College Scouting (Cook becomes "National Scout")

January 2015 Tom Gibbons fired as Director of Pro Personnel (not clear if someone /who has replaced him?)

 

It's not clear to me who brought in Whaley. Whaley was first hired as a Pittsburgh scouting intern by Tom Donahue and (I think) knew Modrak during his first stint with Pittsburgh, but Whaley doesn't mention Modrak as a particular mentor or influence that I've run into. If there's a Nix connection I haven't found it, except I'm sure all these guys know each other.

 

It sort of sounds as though you want a "clean sweep" and object to anyone being there who has connections to the Losing Years of the Horrid Drafts but I'm not sure one can find that. Most of the FO of teams seem like a highly interconnected weave of spaghetti.

 

IMO the key people to follow are the Director (or VP or whatever) of Player Personnel, the Director of Pro Personnel, and the Director of College Scouting. Those are the guys who take all the film and scouting reports and summarize it along with their recommendations to the GM, and May 2013 when Whaley was promoted to GM represents a key point where there was turnover, with Whaley bringing in "his guys". So the 2014 draft was clearly a "buck stops here" place for Whaley, with his hand picked College Scouting guy running the show.

 

There has actually been a lot of turnover in the player personnel FO of the Bills of recent, with key points in Jan 2010 (Nix as GM, Guy fired, Whaley brought in), May 2011 (Whaley role expanded, Modrak fired, Gibbons and Cook brought in), May 2013 (Whaley as GM, Monos and Fisher hired), and Jan 2015 (Gibbons fired).

I actually don't want a clean sweep. I think Whaley is good and Nix was decent. I know that Nix was grooming Whaley to succeed him, it was widely reported.

 

My only point was that saying this regime is not connected to the one that picked Maybin is incorrect. That's all. Whaley could've hated the pick, who knows? But it's connected.

[thebandit27]

Whaley is disappointed? Is he going to bitchslap himself?

 

Okay, it's time to quote the actual article for those that don't care to read it yet still comment:

 

The Bills clearly wanted to add more help at the position when the NFL’s free-agency/trading period began on March 10, and they took two big swings … and had two big misses. The first was an attempt to acquire Bryan Bulaga, but he chose to re-sign with the Green Bay Packers. The second was an attempt to trade for Jhari Evans of the New Orleans Saints, but they instead chose to move Ben Grubbs to the Kansas City Chiefs.

 

“To put it bluntly, everybody’s celebrating our victories, but we’ve had some losses in this free agency” period “and it happened to be on the offensive line,” General Manager Doug Whaley said Tuesday during the NFL meeting here. “We had targeted two guys and we just couldn’t get them. Unfortunately for us, it looks like we didn’t try, but we did try and just weren’t successful.”

 

it couldn't be clearer: Whaley is lamenting the fact that the two OL targets that the team identified and aggressively pursued did not end up here.

[John from Riverside]

Look guys

 

I know that it is the offseason but why do we make such a huge deal out of this stuff......its like if we are not bitching about something we are just not happy....

 

There is no issue here