YoloinOhio Posted March 27, 2015 Author Posted March 27, 2015 Regarding the bold: they weren't just good, they were exceptional. In Gailey's final year, 2012, they averaged 5.0 yards per carry for the regular season as a team. That's outstanding. They also ranked 10th in fewest sacks allowed. They let Levitre go, which didn't help, but to think that just one guy (who has been nothing short of a colossal bust in Tennessee) made the OL drop off that much from 2012 to 2013 is misguided, IMO. and I'm sure Rex is aware of the severe drop off with our OL since he had to game plan against it for 6 years. He knows the personnel and he knows they were good before Marrone and sucked with Marrone. We don't know if they had kept levitre if the line would have been any better. A lot of it is scheme based. Playing pears at G will never make sense to me. I guess I'm confident that two guys like kromer and roman with a strong history of OL success know what the heck they are doing. I know we will add someone in the draft or a vet or both (regardless of Whaley saying they are tapped out, I think he's saying don't expect any more splashes). That doesn't mean they can't sign a bargain vet who can help. I'm not in the doomed category until I see the finished product.
thebandit27 Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 and I'm sure Rex is aware of the severe drop off with our OL since he had to game plan against it for 6 years. He knows the personnel and he knows they were good before Marrone and sucked with Marrone. We don't know if they had kept levitre if the line would have been any better. A lot of it is scheme based. Playing pears at G will never make sense to me. I guess I'm confident that two guys like kromer and roman with a strong history of OL success know what the heck they are doing. I know we will add someone in the draft or a vet or both (regardless of Whaley saying they are tapped out, I think he's saying don't expect any more splashes). That doesn't mean they can't sign a bargain vet who can help. I'm not in the doomed category until I see the finished product. Don't disregard Rex when it comes to OL development either. In his own words: #Bills HC Rex Ryan: My pride and joy has always been the offensive line. Those bullies up front is where my heart is. He had a reputation for getting the most out of guys like Austin Howard (a street FA from Baltimore) and Willie Colon in his time in NJ. It wouldn't surprise me if he had some "pet project" type guys he wants in this year's draft. Personally, I'm hoping for Jarvis Harrison of Texas A&M. He's started at every OL position aside from C, but is viewed as a LG in the pros. Perfect Ryan-type of guy: classic guard body, enormously talented, but has had his work ethic questioned (which is probably why he's going to drop into the 3rd round instead of being a top 50 pick).
GG Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 GG, it's a point that there's still the draft and the cutout bin, but those parts of the process are arguably higher risk than picking up a guy who has shown he can play in the NFL. No one wants another Cornell Green, but by play (and by various evaluations and ratings) there were (and are) a number of decent OLmen available in FA beyond those 3, guys who are at least proven servicable. It's simply not credible that no one out there in FAland can play Guard better than Pears, Urbik, and Richardson. Ha, ha, "it fails the eyeball test" (sorry, couldn't resist tying threads together) To bring up Cornell Green is to really hit at the heart of the question some of us have, which, stripped of hyperbole, amounts to "do the Bills now have OL position scouts for college and pro personnel who can correctly and reliably identify OL talent?" ie, who can distinguish between a Cornell Green and a quality FA. Because if the Bills reluctance stems from lack of confidence in their pro personnel scouting at OL, they had by damn better be recruiting to change that. If I may reference the BPA draft article in the other thread, coaching is the missing variable in this discussion. I think that the swap of coaching regimes will do wonders for the OL crew. I was convinced last year that Marrone's schemes were not utilizing the OLs effectively, nor did I trust his decisions in fielding the line. So any analysis of whether the available FAs are better than who's already on the squad needs to be put through the Marrone filter and Ryan, Roman & Kromer are probably giving Whaley plenty of input on the matter, and will continue to do so until the draft. Relative value is also important at this stage, because Bills now need to balance the available OLs relative to their cost. It wouldn't make sense to pay top FA dollars to a guy who may only be a marginal improvement over Incognito or Urbik. And again, at this point it makes sense to wait for the draft and then look around for an aging vet who still has two good years. As 27 mentions above, Ryan has been able to get good contributions from the likes of Willie Colons, and you know there will be a handful of guys like that who can step in and play at a high caliber level. That's why I'm not ready to panic when only 1/3 of the offseason has passed.
thebandit27 Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 This I don't buy. Rex is a defensive coach. He always has been. The failures on offense were the reason he began to falter in New York. Granted not all of it was his fault but he had a reputation of ignoring the offense and strictly focusing on the defensive side of the ball. That's great if you are a defensive coordinator and not the Head Coach. I just hope he learned from that and has more of a voice on the offensive side of the ball and actually has a clue as to what is going on with the offense. The Jets offensive line was as much a disaster as ours was last year. Maybe worse. It was the main reason we beat the **** out of them twice as our D-Line dominated their O-Line. The Jets' offense was a disaster because their QB play was atrocious. Absolutely atrocious in every way. Their OL was hardly the issue. They averaged 4.5 YPC for the season, and averaged 4.8 YPC and 5.3 YPC against Buffalo in the two games we faced them. Sure, we got after the QB against them; we did that to everyone. The biggest reason that the Jets gave up sacks against Buffalo wasn't their OL, it was their QBs. I'm not touting Rex as some kind of OL guru, but rather a guy that's had good OL play for the most part in his time as a HC.
San-O Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 The Jets' offense was a disaster because their QB play was atrocious. Absolutely atrocious in every way. Their OL was hardly the issue. They averaged 4.5 YPC for the season, and averaged 4.8 YPC and 5.3 YPC against Buffalo in the two games we faced them. Sure, we got after the QB against them; we did that to everyone. The biggest reason that the Jets gave up sacks against Buffalo wasn't their OL, it was their QBs. I'm not touting Rex as some kind of OL guru, but rather a guy that's had good OL play for the most part in his time as a HC. Jets had a bunch of 1st round picks on that line I believe, and that line was built so as I recall. Maybe one of the best O lines in the league at the time. Buffalo has one of the worst...
YoloinOhio Posted March 27, 2015 Author Posted March 27, 2015 (edited) This I don't buy. Rex is a defensive coach. He always has been. The failures on offense were the reason he began to falter in New York. Granted not all of it was his fault but he had a reputation of ignoring the offense and strictly focusing on the defensive side of the ball. That's great if you are a defensive coordinator and not the Head Coach. I just hope he learned from that and has more of a voice on the offensive side of the ball and actually has a clue as to what is going on with the offense. The Jets offensive line was as much a disaster as ours was last year. Maybe worse. It was the main reason we beat the **** out of them twice as our D-Line dominated their O-Line. I'm still concerned about the line. Icognito should be an upgrade, but how much of an upgrade given his age and how long he's been out of football Other then that we did nothing to upgrade the line so how much of an improvement can we expect? Yes Williams coming back should help(Although he is average at best), but if the problem was coaching we will find out very quickly. the jets OL was not a disaster last year and certainly not worse than ours. They ran the ball very well despite having no real threat of a passing game. They ranked 3rd in rushing yards as a team in 2014. Buffalo was 25th.PFF ranked the NYJ OL 13th in the league last year. The Bills were 30th. Edited March 27, 2015 by YoloinOhio
thebandit27 Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 Jets had a bunch of 1st round picks on that line I believe, and that line was built so as I recall. Maybe one of the best O lines in the league at the time. Buffalo has one of the worst... They had Ferguson and Mangold. That's it. Not dissimilar to Buffalo's OL where they have Glenn and Wood. The Jets sported street FAs at LG and RT, and RG was more or less a revolving door after Brandon Moore (a converted DT) retired.
San-O Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 the jets OL was not a disaster last year and certainly not worse than ours. They ran the ball very well despite having no real threat of a passing game. They ranked 3rd in rushing yards as a team in 2014. Buffalo was 25th. PFF ranked the NYJ OL 13th in the league last year. The Bills were 30th. So, the team basically just quit on him in recent years?
YoloinOhio Posted March 27, 2015 Author Posted March 27, 2015 (edited) So, the team basically just quit on him in recent years? the OL? Not sure what you mean... Edited March 27, 2015 by YoloinOhio
GG Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 So, the team basically just quit on him in recent years? They totally destroyed their skill positions and didn't have the talent to compete. If the team had quit, they'd be blown out of every game towards the end of the season.
YoloinOhio Posted March 27, 2015 Author Posted March 27, 2015 They totally destroyed their skill positions and didn't have the talent to compete. If the team had quit, they'd be blown out of every game towards the end of the season. yes... The OL is just one unit. Idzik is out of a job because his roster management at the skill positions was atrocious. Great coaches need great players, and great players need great coaches, for teams to succeed. It is clear with the moves the jets made after they got rid of idzik that they knew full well the errors on the roster. Rex doesn't have a SB ring as a HC yet but he's had more success in the NFL than any other HC the bills have ever brought in and now has probably the most talented team he's ever had.
GG Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 Jets had a bunch of 1st round picks on that line I believe, and that line was built so as I recall. Maybe one of the best O lines in the league at the time. Buffalo has one of the worst... Remember how they threw in a practice squad guy who basically shut down Mario?
YoloinOhio Posted March 27, 2015 Author Posted March 27, 2015 Disagree here. His team in 2010 was better then this team due to the offensive line that Jets team had. It was among the best in the league and we saw that first hand as they ran for over 550 Yards combined in those two games we played against them. im sure the OL in nj was good in 2010 and had a big effect on what they were able to do, but I can't compare it to the bills OL in 2015 yet since we do not know what it is.
YoloinOhio Posted March 27, 2015 Author Posted March 27, 2015 Bad QB play, too many turnovers on offense and an absolutely awful secondary were the reasons the Jets were as bad as they were last year. Of course Rex deserves his fair share of blame for that as I indicated in the post above. He was completely hands off on the offense and you simply can't do that as the head coach of a football team. he wasn't hands off when he only let Geno throw the ball 13 times against miami when the FO wouldn't let him bench him.
FLFan Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 If I may reference the BPA draft article in the other thread, coaching is the missing variable in this discussion. I think that the swap of coaching regimes will do wonders for the OL crew. I was convinced last year that Marrone's schemes were not utilizing the OLs effectively, nor did I trust his decisions in fielding the line. So any analysis of whether the available FAs are better than who's already on the squad needs to be put through the Marrone filter and Ryan, Roman & Kromer are probably giving Whaley plenty of input on the matter, and will continue to do so until the draft. Relative value is also important at this stage, because Bills now need to balance the available OLs relative to their cost. It wouldn't make sense to pay top FA dollars to a guy who may only be a marginal improvement over Incognito or Urbik. And again, at this point it makes sense to wait for the draft and then look around for an aging vet who still has two good years. As 27 mentions above, Ryan has been able to get good contributions from the likes of Willie Colons, and you know there will be a handful of guys like that who can step in and play at a high caliber level. That's why I'm not ready to panic when only 1/3 of the offseason has passed. Someone recently posted the PFF grades for our linemen over the past three years. ( sorry I can't find the post or the source material). It completely supported the point you are making. For players that were holdovers from Gailey's last year, there were precipitous drops in performance grades in each successive year under Marrone. There are certainly others factors that could be in play, but something was clearly amiss under Marrone with respect to coaching, position decisions, and scheme. I expect improvement from better coaching alone. Another factor to be considered is kuandjo in his second year. It is pretty clear he struggled making the transition to the NFL last year. He did not get much help it seems from the Bills coaches either. He is certainly not the first player to be overwhelmed in making the jump. The accounts of his offseason work and his descriptions of his approach and attitude one year to the next encourage me greatly that he will make a major jump in year 2. I would have liked to have Bulaga though ....
YoloinOhio Posted March 27, 2015 Author Posted March 27, 2015 Not to blow up this thread again... But another WR? Why? Can he play guard? Maybe the OL goes unsaid? @viccarucci: What's left for #Bills in 2nd/3rd phases of FA market? "Maybe get a vet WR," GM Doug Whaley says. "Hopefully get Brandon Spikes back."
thebandit27 Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 Not to blow up this thread again... But another WR? Why? Can he play guard? Maybe the OL goes unsaid? @viccarucci: What's left for #Bills in 2nd/3rd phases of FA market? "Maybe get a vet WR," GM Doug Whaley says. "Hopefully get Brandon Spikes back." Meh...this is the season for misinformation. Sure looks to me, however, that the DL and OL will be the focus of the draft this year, especially if they re-sign Spikes.
YoloinOhio Posted March 27, 2015 Author Posted March 27, 2015 Meh...this is the season for misinformation. Sure looks to me, however, that the DL and OL will be the focus of the draft this year, especially if they re-sign Spikes. you're right. Can't take anything these GMs say at face value.
TPS Posted March 27, 2015 Posted March 27, 2015 I can't wait until the first OTA so we can settle this argument...
YoloinOhio Posted March 27, 2015 Author Posted March 27, 2015 @viccarucci: For those asking, OL help the #Bills clearly need will come from draft after failing to get Bryan Bulaga in FA & Jahri Evans via trade.
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