Whaley not happy Bills haven't done more to address OL

[thebandit27]

Who knows how much more they offered? All we know is "more." It could've been $100k more per year. Granted, it could've been $5 million more, but at this point, is it really not fair game to question the FO a little bit? I mean, the GM himself is saying that the O-line hunt was a "failure" or a "loss" and we're still getting the "they tried though!" responses. Give me Whaley's salary and I'll try really hard too.

 

If I ranked the positions of need where I thought their importance was, it would go:

 

Interior O-line

Exterior O-line

TE

WR/FB I guess? Were these really needs?

 

And yet, here we are. The two places I considered were the most necessary, are still empty. But, at least they tried.

Of course it's reasonable to question them. All I'm saying is that it's inaccurate to say they didn't prioritize the OL. Clearly they had their guys identified.

 

Where I find fault is that they seemingly didn't have a contingency plan in place to address the OL before the draft in the event that plan A failed.

Edited March 26, 2015 by thebandit27

[YoloinOhio]

Chas Reingold is still available

[FireChan]

Unless I've missed a comment or two in this thread, it seems that nobody has picked up on this statement:

 

“We’re tapped out,” Whaley said. “We’re at the point now where we’ve got to save” cap space “for the draft choices and for injury replacements next year. So anything we do from now on will basically be minimum” salaried “guys.

 

Maybe if Evans gets cut by the Saints he will change his tune on that, but as quoted, we are now pretty much set in our team roster(aside from rookies/journeymen).

 

 

 

Oh ok. I just think it's legit to talk about where we are in the here and now - but also agree that there's plenty of time to address the OL and certainly no time to panic.

Is there really that much time? If the quote Dibs talked about is accurate, I'm not sure.

 

Of course it's reasonable to question them. All I'm saying is that it's inaccurate to say they didn't prioritize the OL. Clearly they had their guys identified.

 

Where I find fault is that they seemingly didn't have a contingency plan in place to address the OL before the draft in the event that plan A failed.

Right. But they didn't get them. GG's post seemed to say that all the "whiners" were wrong.

[Dibs]

....If the quote Dibs talked about is accurate, I'm not sure.

 

....

It was lifted directly from the linked article in the OP.

[thewildrabbit]

Guys that didn't want to come here... didn't come here. But it's the GM's fault ? There are actually some players that don't want to play in Buffalo, as hard as that is to believe. The GM has done a great job getting playmakers and now if OL, LB and S can be strengthened this is a power team, no I didn't forget QB. Don't get some of you who are unhappy with the talent level we have under Whaleys watch.

Seriously? 13 rushes for 13 yards with the playoffs on the line against a 2-12 Raider team tells me everything I need to know in how bad the current players are on the line. Both Jackson and Spiller were healthy for that game, and the only excuse is the useless blocking by the line.

 

The only two players changed from last year to this year were OG Erik Pears who graded at about the very worst player at OG in the NFL last year is now a 49er, and Richie Incognito who looks to be Rex Ryans input. The Incognito idea could could go sideways very quickly if he has another mental breakdown over any small thing. Lets not forget that this man took a baseball bat to his own Ferrari for some unknown reason, a wild hair perhaps?

[FireChan]

It was lifted directly from the linked article in the OP.

I know that. Whaley doesn't have to tell the truth about things like that though.

[thewildrabbit]

Unless I've missed a comment or two in this thread, it seems that nobody has picked up on this statement:

 

“We’re tapped out,” Whaley said. “We’re at the point now where we’ve got to save” cap space “for the draft choices and for injury replacements next year. So anything we do from now on will basically be minimum” salaried “guys.

 

Maybe if Evans gets cut by the Saints he will change his tune on that, but as quoted, we are now pretty much set in our team roster(aside from rookies/journeymen).

Wow, that statement makes my heart sink at the thought of another failed season.

 

Again, I'm hoping that Whaley finds his way to 6 more mill in restructuring someone to allow some better players for this year. The Eagles may still end up cutting OG Evan Mathis, or Evans, and a decent RT.

[BillsCelticsAngelsBama]

What offensive linemen should be on our roster, that are not that, would willingly have come here ? He drafted 3 last year and the two that didn't live up to expectations were All-Americans @ Baylor and Bama. I'm not being sarcastic just want to know who could YOU have gotten that Whaley hasn't tried to get. The pot of gold is almost empty for FA's and possibly with better coaching & an adequate guard @ pick #50.... (there are many good ones this year by the way) this line can do the job. There is still the draft and this team, as we know, WILL make trades. Understand all the frustration but there are 32 teams trying to get an offensive line and we tried 3 times last year and I'm sure they think about what they can do to solve this issue every single day

I don't know anyone who claimed they didn't try. Aggressive is relative. Was Bulaga on the jet back and forth or was that Clay?

"Tis true. We don't know. But Bulaga's agent could have told him the chances Bulaga would leave Green Bay and join the Bills and leave Whaley with the only acceptable response, "So you're telling me there's a chance !!

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Seriously? 13 rushes for 13 yards with the playoffs on the line against a 2-12 Raider team tells me everything I need to know in how bad the current players are on the line. Both Jackson and Spiller were healthy for that game, and the only excuse is the useless blocking by the line.

 

The only two players changed from last year to this year were OG Erik Pears who graded at about the very worst player at OG in the NFL last year is now a 49er, and Richie Incognito who looks to be Rex Ryans input. The Incognito idea could could go sideways very quickly if he has another mental breakdown over any small thing. Lets not forget that this man took a baseball bat to his own Ferrari for some unknown reason, a wild hair perhaps?

 

OK, Fear, the line was bad last year. Why are you so sure it's all about the players? Pears had some success as a RT in previous years; he had no business playing RG. Urbik, who was decent as a RG, was moved to LG. Wood and Glenn, who played decently to well with a real LG playing between them and a decent RG, also struggled.

 

Ask yourself this: why was Pears scooped up by the 49ers who have a very decent RT in Anthony Long if they thought he was league-bottom worst?

 

Last but not least, Incognito took a baseball bat to his own Ferrari for a very well known reason - the release of the Wells report which publically portrayed what he honestly appeared to regard as a friendship as being a nasty case of bullying and kind of nailed closed any chance he had to catch on with a team last spring. He may not work out because he's been out of football for 18 months, but I don't think he's going to have a mental breakdown over "any small thing"

 

I agree not enough has been done to improve the line, and hopefully the draft and the cutout bin will both further address it, but let's not exaggerate the gloom and doom picture.

[Dibs]

Like most, I too am disappointed that we could not sure up the OL via FA. Unlike some however, I can see that there is a good chance that we will hit the field come September with at least a reasonable OL.

 

As I see it, we have an unusually high number of reasonable "maybes" this year with regards to the OL.

 

Maybe Glenn and Wood will rebound(Glenn getting a full injury free pre-season & Wood having better than Pears next to him).

Maybe the coaching was in fact hindering the ability of the players and a new coaching methodology and system will improve them across the board.

Maybe the play calling hindered the performance on the field.

Maybe Chris Williams stays healthy and performs to a reasonable level.

Maybe Incognito is unaffected by his year out of the NFL and returns to ProBowl level.

Maybe CK, Richardson &/or Henderson will improve or "get it" in their 2nd year(which happens quite regularly).

Maybe a rookie will step right in at a position and sure it up(assuming we draft somebody).

Maybe the influx of new offensive skills talent(including non-OL blocking talent) will enable the OL to play above their ability.

 

As Bills fans, we are used to seeing our team buck the odds for the worst.....but unless one believes that there is something supernatural involved, the odds are that at least a couple of the maybes we have this year in regards to the OL will come off. Personally, I am hoping that we buck the odds in the opposite of what we normally experience and that several of the maybes become realities......and we field a good-great OL this year.

 

That said, it sure would have been nice to sign a good FA or two for the OL so that we wouldn't have to rely on maybes.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Dibs

[San-O]

Uhhhh, we took three lineman last draft. It's not like the position has been ignored.

 

 

I think the Bills may be drafting linemen by the pound, getting value THAT way!!!

Like most, I too am disappointed that we could not sure up the OL via FA. Unlike some however, I can see that there is a good chance that we will hit the field come September with at least a reasonable OL.

 

As I see it, we have an unusually high number of reasonable "maybes" this year with regards to the OL.

 

Maybe Glenn and Wood will rebound(Glenn getting a full injury free pre-season & Wood having better than Pears next to him).

Maybe the coaching was in fact hindering the ability of the players and a new coaching methodology and system will improve them across the board.

Maybe the play calling hindered the performance on the field.

Maybe Chris Williams stays healthy and performs to a reasonable level.

Maybe Incognito is unaffected by his year out of the NFL and returns to ProBowl level.

Maybe CK, Richardson &/or Henderson will improve or "get it" in their 2nd year(which happens quite regularly).

Maybe a rookie will step right in at a position and sure it up(assuming we draft somebody).

Maybe the influx of new offensive skills talent(including non-OL blocking talent) will enable the OL to play above their ability.

 

As Bills fans, we are used to seeing our team buck the odds for the worst.....but unless one believes that there is something supernatural involved, the odds are that at least a couple of the maybes we have this year in regards to the OL will come off. Personally, I am hoping that we buck the odds in the opposite of what we normally experience and that several of the maybes become realities......and we field a good-great OL this year.

 

That said, it sure would have been nice to sign a good FA or two for the OL so that we wouldn't have to rely on maybes.

 

Anyone can clearly see the Bills devoting a lot of resources to the O this year, which was needed. It's just hard to see McCoy running behind this line with success

and Clay catching the ball if the O line doesn't hold up and give these new skill players a chance...

[Dibs]

.....

 

Anyone can clearly see the Bills devoting a lot of resources to the O this year, which was needed. It's just hard to see McCoy running behind this line with success

and Clay catching the ball if the O line doesn't hold up and give these new skill players a chance...

My point was that we have many decent possibilies which could mean that the OL does hold up. If we had the same coaches, mid-career vets instead of 2nd year players, no Incognito or C.Williams, then we really could only hope that a rookie steps up. As it stands, we have a whole lot of possibilies for potential improvement.

[Kelly the Dog]

I'm sure he is trying, but I think it's fair to question whether they've made it the top priority as some of us argue that it should've been. They seemed to have put Clay at the top of their FA list and applied the full-court private-jet press to land him. Not saying that flying Air Pegula to Wisconsin on Day 1 of free agency would've landed Bulaga, but perhaps it may have. I'd rather they overpay a lineman than overpay Charles Clay (if we can't overpay both). Maybe it's unfair to link this back to the Levitre decision which was under a mostly different regime, but at some point they need to devote significant time, attention and resources to fixing the line, even if it means paying more than they think they ought to. Some of us would argue that they should do it first, because otherwise their investments in fancy dancers are rendered worthless. They can't seem to draft these guys with any consistency so they need to start buying them.

The improvement of Clay as a blocker over Chandler is as helpful in the run game as the improvement of say, Boling over Urbik.

[GG]

 

Right. But they didn't get them. GG's post seemed to say that all the "whiners" were wrong.

 

The whiners are wrong because they think that the process is over.

 

They're also wrong because they don't know what the team's baseline is for improving the OL. The only measuring stick is that the team didn't add an OL in free agency, which wasn't for the lack of trying.

 

So the question that needs to be answered is "should the Bills have signed another OL, no matter how the team ranked the next available players beyond Bulaga & Evans relative to what the team already has on the roster?"

 

I think the answer is clear. The Bills wanted to improve the position, but thought that the only players worth pursuing in FA were Bulaga, Boling & Evans. When they couldn't get either of the three, the remaining FAs weren't enough of improvement over the guys on the roster to justify the pursuit.

 

But if it make you feel better if the team would have signed another Cornel Green, then good for you.

[FireChan]

 

The whiners are wrong because they think that the process is over.

 

They're also wrong because they don't know what the team's baseline is for improving the OL. The only measuring stick is that the team didn't add an OL in free agency, which wasn't for the lack of trying.

 

So the question that needs to be answered is "should the Bills have signed another OL, no matter how the team ranked the next available players beyond Bulaga & Evans relative to what the team already has on the roster?"

 

I think the answer is clear. The Bills wanted to improve the position, but thought that the only players worth pursuing in FA were Bulaga, Boling & Evans. When they couldn't get either of the three, the remaining FAs weren't enough of improvement over the guys on the roster to justify the pursuit.

 

But if it make you feel better if the team would have signed another Cornel Green, then good for you.

I thought we also pursued Iupati.

 

Whaley says the FA process is over, FWIW. But, if you think some training camp cut will be the answer to all of our O-line woes, I guess it doesn't really matter.

 

I can use my eyes to see what the "baseline" is for improving the OL. It's really quite simple. We spent $6 million on an 3rd WR instead of overpaying at a position of need. Great. Hopefully it works out. Hopefully Whaley hits on a couple OL draft picks. Because it will be all for naught if we have a garbage RZ offense, and a garbage 3rd and short offense.

Edited March 27, 2015 by FireChan

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Like most, I too am disappointed that we could not sure up the OL via FA. Unlike some however, I can see that there is a good chance that we will hit the field come September with at least a reasonable OL.

 

As I see it, we have an unusually high number of reasonable "maybes" this year with regards to the OL. (list of maybes deleted)

That said, it sure would have been nice to sign a good FA or two for the OL so that we wouldn't have to rely on maybes.

 

I think that rather sums up many of our concerns in a nutshell. We need to hit on 2, maybe 3 "maybes" to have a good OL. All the FA acquisitions are nice, but they're for naught if our line isn't much better. And while you're right that there are a lot of OL possibilities, one really does not wish to stake the season on the probability that 2 or 3 will turn out.

 

The whiners are wrong because they think that the process is over.

They're also wrong because they don't know what the team's baseline is for improving the OL. The only measuring stick is that the team didn't add an OL in free agency, which wasn't for the lack of trying.

So the question that needs to be answered is "should the Bills have signed another OL, no matter how the team ranked the next available players beyond Bulaga & Evans relative to what the team already has on the roster?"

I think the answer is clear. The Bills wanted to improve the position, but thought that the only players worth pursuing in FA were Bulaga, Boling & Evans. When they couldn't get either of the three, the remaining FAs weren't enough of improvement over the guys on the roster to justify the pursuit.

But if it make you feel better if the team would have signed another Cornel Green, then good for you.

 

GG, it's a point that there's still the draft and the cutout bin, but those parts of the process are arguably higher risk than picking up a guy who has shown he can play in the NFL. No one wants another Cornell Green, but by play (and by various evaluations and ratings) there were (and are) a number of decent OLmen available in FA beyond those 3, guys who are at least proven servicable. It's simply not credible that no one out there in FAland can play Guard better than Pears, Urbik, and Richardson. Ha, ha, "it fails the eyeball test" (sorry, couldn't resist tying threads together)

 

To bring up Cornell Green is to really hit at the heart of the question some of us have, which, stripped of hyperbole, amounts to "do the Bills now have OL position scouts for college and pro personnel who can correctly and reliably identify OL talent?" ie, who can distinguish between a Cornell Green and a quality FA.

 

Because if the Bills reluctance stems from lack of confidence in their pro personnel scouting at OL, they had by damn better be recruiting to change that.

Edited March 27, 2015 by Hopeful

[thewildrabbit]

This point was already brought up by "Dibs".

 

“We’re tapped out,” Whaley said. “We’re at the point now where we’ve got to save” cap space “for the draft choices and for injury replacements next year. So anything we do from now on will basically be minimum” salaried “guys.

 

http://bills.buffalonews.com/2015/03/24/whaley-offensive-line-a-loss-in-otherwise-winning-offseason-for-bills/

 

So, the idea of upgrading the O line with some "known" quality talent free agency is already over this year according to the teams GM. Unless Whaley can find another 6 mill or so to sign some more help.

 

 

With the playoffs on the line last year watch the Raiders Khalil Mack beat Henderson like a red headed stepchild play after play. It wasn't just Henderson either, as the entire offensive line stunk up the field in blocking.

 

13 rushes for 13 yards against a freaking 2-12 team.

 

 

 

If you have that Bills - Raiders game on your DVR go back and watch #60 at 6:19 in the game with 2nd, and four to go. Seven Buffalo Bills on the line in a run play, and against five Raiders on the line. #60 gets overpowered by a scrub Raider DT and shoved five yards in the backfield. Smith tackles Spiller just after gets the handoff. If Antonio Smith doesn't make that tackle behind the line then there are three other Raiders right behind him to make it. The entire interior of the line collapsed on that run play.

 

The thing is the Bills line players have been somewhat acceptable in terms of pass blocking over the years, and that has allowed them to retain their jobs. This past season the Bills line graded as the very worst run blocking unit in the league. Again, with the playoffs on the line. This how that line blocks!! Thinking that coaching changes, the scheme, the play calls are going to elevate the play of bad players is simply delusional thinking. I dunno about the rest of you guys, but I'd like to see something more substantial then a plethora of maybes for the line this season.

 

 

 

Richie Incognito has a long and storied history of problems going back to his college days. 38 penalties in 44 games with the Rams with 7 of those for unnecessary roughness. The guy is known for blowing up at his team mates, opposing players, the fans, and his own coaches. http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/richie-incognito-troubled-timeline-dates-back-early-college-224648711--nfl.html

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/st-louis-rams/post/_/id/2733/revisiting-incognito-and-the-rams

 

When he beat up his 300,000 $ Ferrari with a baseball bat he stated "that was just me venting" http://deadspin.com/richie-incognito-on-beating-up-his-car-that-was-just-1533265697

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Well, as the image says: http://knowyourmeme.com/photos/540693-beating-a-dead-horse

 

 

With the playoffs on the line last year watch the Raiders Khalil Mack beat Henderson like a red headed stepchild play after play. It wasn't just Henderson either, as the entire offensive line stunk up the field in blocking.

 

The thing is the Bills line players have been somewhat acceptable in terms of pass blocking over the years, and that has allowed them to retain their jobs. This past season the Bills line graded as the very worst run blocking unit in the league. Again, with the playoffs on the line. This how that line blocks!! Thinking that coaching changes, the scheme, the play calls are going to elevate the play of bad players is simply delusional thinking. I dunno about the rest of you guys, but I'd like to see something more substantial then a plethora of maybes for the line this season.

 

Richie Incognito has a long and storied history of problems going back to his college days. 38 penalties in 44 games with the Rams with 7 of those for unnecessary roughness. The guy is known for blowing up at his team mates, opposing players, the fans, and his own coaches. http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/richie-incognito-troubled-timeline-dates-back-early-college-224648711--nfl.html

 

http://espn.go.com/blog/st-louis-rams/post/_/id/2733/revisiting-incognito-and-the-rams

 

When he beat up his 300,000 $ Ferrari with a baseball bat he stated "that was just me venting" http://deadspin.com/richie-incognito-on-beating-up-his-car-that-was-just-1533265697

 

Yes, Fear, the line was bad last year. No, Fear, they weren't just acceptable at pass blocking in previous years, at times they were good at run blocking. Of course, having a strong blocking fullback in Corey Mac helped, as did having guys play the positions they knew how to play. Yes, Fear, we would all have liked to see something more substantial done in the way of improvement, but that horse is gone.

 

Yes, Fear, Incognito had problems. It's why his butt was cut from multiple teams. When he got to Miami, reportedly he got help, changed, and had very very few penalties. So I don't think it's fair to hang that Dead Ram around his neck. Yes, he was out of control then. Anger management and Paxil got him under control - on the field, anyway. Until the Martin thing broke. Whatever he said about "just venting", look at the timing of the release of the report and the trashing of the Ferrari. It's pretty clear A caused B, and resulted in him entering treatment in AZ last spring and spending 6 weeks at Mclean last summer, one of the least-frilly and best-reputed psychiatric facilities in the country.

 

He's not going to crack for "any little thing". Whether he still has what it takes to play NFL guard at a high level, remains to be seen - that's my worry.

 

But I imagine these points will gently waft by you on their way to oblivion because after all : http://knowyourmeme.com/photos/540693-beating-a-dead-horse

[Coach Tuesday]

To bring up Cornell Green is to really hit at the heart of the question some of us have, which, stripped of hyperbole, amounts to "do the Bills now have OL position scouts for college and pro personnel who can correctly and reliably identify OL talent?" ie, who can distinguish between a Cornell Green and a quality FA.

 

Because if the Bills reluctance stems from lack of confidence in their pro personnel scouting at OL, they had by damn better be recruiting to change that.

 

Yes, this is the nut of it as far as I'm concerned. There is a general lack of execution at OBD with respect to the offensive line position group, in all areas: draft (college scouting), free agency (pro personnel scouting), and player development (coaching, training staff). It's concerning to me. I believe they are trying. I'm not sure they understand how to succeed.

[thebandit27]

Well, as the image says: http://knowyourmeme.com/photos/540693-beating-a-dead-horse

 

 

 

Yes, Fear, the line was bad last year. No, Fear, they weren't just acceptable at pass blocking in previous years, at times they were good at run blocking. Of course, having a strong blocking fullback in Corey Mac helped, as did having guys play the positions they knew how to play. Yes, Fear, we would all have liked to see something more substantial done in the way of improvement, but that horse is gone.

 

 

Regarding the bold: they weren't just good, they were exceptional. In Gailey's final year, 2012, they averaged 5.0 yards per carry for the regular season as a team. That's outstanding. They also ranked 10th in fewest sacks allowed.

 

They let Levitre go, which didn't help, but to think that just one guy (who has been nothing short of a colossal bust in Tennessee) made the OL drop off that much from 2012 to 2013 is misguided, IMO.

 

Yes, this is the nut of it as far as I'm concerned. There is a general lack of execution at OBD with respect to the offensive line position group, in all areas: draft (college scouting), free agency (pro personnel scouting), and player development (coaching, training staff). It's concerning to me. I believe they are trying. I'm not sure they understand how to succeed.

 

Not entirely sure I agree Coach. Some of their FA pickups are questionable-to-downright bad (like Green, and perhaps Chris Williams). They have, however, done a respectable job at picking up guys off the waiver wire (Pears, Urbik) that played well for them for significant stretches.

 

As to the draft, the issue was, IMO, simply not enough investment prior to 2012. There was the 2009 draft, in which they grabbed Wood and Levitre in the top 2 rounds, but they neglected to add enough depth from 2010 to 2012 (when they finally added Glenn), which left them in a spot where they didn't have a replacement on hand for Levitre.

 

Whether or not the revamped scouting department can scout college OL talent effectively is still up for debate, given that we've seen very little of their results with only one draft. However, I think it's more than fair to say that if Kouandjio and Richardson don't pan out this year, they were definitely misses. Kouandjio would certainly have to go in the "bust" category as a 2nd rounder. Richardson, as a 5th, is simply a "miss". Henderson, IMO, will at least be a long-term swing tackle in this league, if not a quality starter; that's a "hit" on a 7th rounder if you ask me (which nobody did).

Edited March 27, 2015 by thebandit27