Which QB wins? Make a case for him to start.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

 

Geez man...it's okay for folks to have a different opinion than you.

 

I've watched all of EJ's games multiple times, and my opinion hasn't changed. He's been good at times, bad at times, and terrible at times. EDIT: he also had 1 VERY good game against the Jets his rookie year, and 3/4 of a VERY good game against Jax that year as well (in which he went 17-20 for 150 yards, 2 passing TDs and 1 rushing TD in the final 3 Qs after starting 0-4 with an INT in the 1st Q). In his 2 poor outings last year, he was rarely on the same page as his receivers, and when he was, he was flat-out missing throws. He also looked timid with his reads. There were at least 3 or 4 times in the Houston game where he could've kept the ball on the zone read and ran for easy first downs; he didn't. In fact he didn't even check the edge defender with that option in mind.

 

Point being this: I like EJ. I've defended him. I still think he has a chance to be a good QB in this league. I also think it's extremely misguided to blame all of his deficiencies on coaching, the OL, or the WRs/TEs.

 

That's not nay-saying; that's not trolling.

I never said people couldn't have a different opinion than myself. Please show me where I indicated as much. This is what causes issues - misinterpretation. Now someone will take you misinterpretation and use it as "fact" that that is what I am doing.

 

I indicated that those that believe EJ isn't the answer will not change their mind.

 

I also indicated that some people are trolling anti EJ stuff just to get a reaction.

 

ALSO - If people are going to create a new QB thread every day, then I can voice my opinion and observations as well every day.

Edited March 23, 2015 by BillsFan-4-Ever

[jletha]

I Challenge all EJ na sayers to go and purchase NFL rewind and watch the first 4 games again they only take 30 min each to watch in condensed mode. Then come back here and tell me that you still think EJ is a bad QB. If you watch carefully you will see that much of his bad passes are due to coaching, poor protection or the receivers fault .

 

Don't just echo what everyone else is saying. Watch it again and make your own judgment. I did and now I have a different opinion now that my heart is not in the game and you can really focus on what he did good and bad.

Its funny, this weekend I just went back and watched the Dolphins, Chargers and Bears game in rewind (couldnt stomach the Texans game) and I walked away glad we turned it over to Orton. I actually went in trying to see if maybe EJ was better than I remembered but he was just as bad except for a couple drives in the Bears game and the Dolphins game. I vote that Cassel wins this competition.

Edited March 23, 2015 by jletha

[BarleyNY]

Cassel was brought here to manage games and not be the cause of losses, allowing the running game and the defense to win games. The job is his until he fails to do that and/or another QB shows that they can not only do that, but be an upgrade in some other aspect. It is Cassel's job (for this season at least) unless/until injury forces a change. That's why he's here and I do not see the coaches taking first team reps away from him by having a legitimate QB competition.

[WhitewalkerInPhilly]

For those in love with Cassel, I should point out that over his last four years he's had as bad as or worse than EJ has done in his first 14 starts.

 

I honestly think EJ wins it. EJ fits the mold of Kaepernick in terms of his physicality, size and accuracy issues. If there is a single system with which EJ could possibly have success with it would be what Roman used in 2013.

 

Taylor...we'll see but he doesn't have the sample size for me to make an educated guess.

[Fixxxer]

 

Geez man...it's okay for folks to have a different opinion than you.

 

I've watched all of EJ's games multiple times, and my opinion hasn't changed. He's been good at times, bad at times, and terrible at times. EDIT: he also had 1 VERY good game against the Jets his rookie year, and 3/4 of a VERY good game against Jax that year as well (in which he went 17-20 for 150 yards, 2 passing TDs and 1 rushing TD in the final 3 Qs after starting 0-4 with an INT in the 1st Q). In his 2 poor outings last year, he was rarely on the same page as his receivers, and when he was, he was flat-out missing throws. He also looked timid with his reads. There were at least 3 or 4 times in the Houston game where he could've kept the ball on the zone read and ran for easy first downs; he didn't. In fact he didn't even check the edge defender with that option in mind.

 

Point being this: I like EJ. I've defended him. I still think he has a chance to be a good QB in this league. I also think it's extremely misguided to blame all of his deficiencies on coaching, the OL, or the WRs/TEs.

 

That's not nay-saying; that's not trolling.

 

I like EJ but I agree, he's not without objective criticism. In the first game against the Dolphins last year, he drove the team to the red zone twice and then became timid, he should have hit Woods in a slant for a TD, instead he short armed the throw because he was feeling pressure. The second one he was comfortable hitting Fred short of the markers on 3rd down, the play went nowhere, granted the play sucked but he should have felt the need to be more aggressive in that situation. We won the game but it was closer than it should have been.

What EJ really needs, IMO, is someone that can give him confidence in his game, and that he needs to take care of certain opportunities or else he would become just another guy playing the position.

 

Regarding the premise of the thread, I read that Cassel can become the next Alex Smith but I don't really see it, what I can see happening is EJ becoming him, therefore winning the starting position.

[thebandit27]

I never said people couldn't have a different opinion than myself. Please show me where I indicated as much. This is what causes issues - misinterpretation. Now someone will take you misinterpretation and use it as "fact" that that is what I am doing.

 

I indicated that those that believe EJ isn't the answer will not change their mind.

 

I also indicated that some people are trolling anti EJ stuff just to get a reaction.

 

ALSO - If people are going to create a new QB thread every day, then I can voice my opinion and observations as well every day.

 

You seem to get really agitated by the opinion that EJ isn't the answer, and you seem to do so in perpetuity. What makes me interpret that the way I did is when you label others as naysayers and trolls; labeling others tends to paint yourself as close-minded. Perhaps that's not the case and it just looks that way.

 

As for creating new QB threads, I never once said that you couldn't voice your opinion or observations; I simply stated that there's really no need (or cause) to let yourself be so bothered by others disagreeing with you.

[bigK14094]

Agreeing w many posters here, I think Cassel starts unless he get setback by injury. Recall, that although Teddy Bridgewater was the QB for most of the season last year in Minn, Cassel won the job out of camp, and was the starter until he broke his ankle. And, speaking to character, he mentored Teddy to the good season that rookie had. So, Cassel is the favorite out of the box....and if he falter, his veteran head will help the other two play the game. I think Jeff Tuel will be gone, unless the Bills need salary cap relief, and then one of the main three might get cut. It will be interesting , though, to see what Ryan and company think of Tuel.....he and Manuel are both practice squad elgible, I think. But, likely somebody else would pickup EJ if he were cut loose. EJ still has potential....maybe he learned to throw over the summer.....naw.......

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

 

You seem to get really agitated by the opinion that EJ isn't the answer, and you seem to do so in perpetuity. What makes me interpret that the way I did is when you label others as naysayers and trolls; labeling others tends to paint yourself as close-minded. Perhaps that's not the case and it just looks that way.

 

As for creating new QB threads, I never once said that you couldn't voice your opinion or observations; I simply stated that there's really no need (or cause) to let yourself be so bothered by others disagreeing with you.

again a misinterpretation sir. Please take note - I have no idea if EJ is the answer.

 

I feel 14 games as a starter is not enough time to factually say he's any good or not good enough. I am undecided.

I can say that after a 10+ year career Orton WAS NOT the answer for Buffalo, hence the hesitation to think any other 10+ year veteran can be the answer.

 

Please explain : - Why is it people are willing to blame EJ for the Houston loss and the Defense for the Raiders loss when in the Raiders game Orton has (IIRC) 5 straight 3 and outs. see link

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/gametracker/recap/NFL_20141221_BUF@OAK

 

The Bills came into the game vowing not to overlook the two-win Raiders. But Orton struggled after an early touchdown pass to Sammy Watkins, throwing an interception and posting five straight three-and-outs on Buffalo's next six possessions to put the Bills in a hole they never could overcome.

 

The Bills ran for just 13 yards despite the return of C.J. Spiller from a broken collarbone. That was their worst rushing performance since gaining 4 yards against Tennessee on Nov. 23, 1997.

Edited March 23, 2015 by BillsFan-4-Ever

[thebandit27]

again a misinterpretation sir

 

Please take note - I have no idea if EJ is the answer.

 

I feel 14 games as a starter is not enough time to factually say he's any good or not good enough. I am undecided.

I can say that after a 10+ year career Orton WAS NOT the answer for Buffalo, hence the hesitation to think any other 10+ year veteran can be the answer.

 

Please explain : - Why is it people are willing to blame EJ for the Houston loss and the Defense for the Raiders loss when in the Raiders game Orton has (IIRC) 5 straight 3 and outs.

 

I have no idea why you're using words like "factually" to describe opinions.

 

As for Orton, I don't know who on this board said he was the answer...certainly not me.

 

I truly hope you don't expect me to answer for apparent scores of fans that seem to believe that the responsibility for Raiders' loss rests solely on the defense. Perhaps you've been involved in discussions where folks have said that; I haven't to my recollection. I will say, however, that it's a much different scenario given that the defense allowed 26 points to Oakland, while only allowing 16 points to Houston, so if you're asking me to make an argument in that vain, that's my answer.

 

If you want me to assign blame to one entity for each of those losses, I'll blame the passing offense for Houston, because they missed way too many opportunities. I'll blame the defense for Oakland, as they didn't pressure the QB and never adjusted after they lost Gilmore (which is when Oakland started moving the ball, coincidentally or--more likely IMO--not).

[Kirby Jackson]

again a misinterpretation sir. Please take note - I have no idea if EJ is the answer.

 

I feel 14 games as a starter is not enough time to factually say he's any good or not good enough. I am undecided.

 

I can say that after a 10+ year career Orton WAS NOT the answer for Buffalo, hence the hesitation to think any other 10+ year veteran can be the answer.

 

Please explain : - Why is it people are willing to blame EJ for the Houston loss and the Defense for the Raiders loss when in the Raiders game Orton has (IIRC) 5 straight 3 and outs. see link

 

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/gametracker/recap/NFL_20141221_BUF@OAK

 

The Bills came into the game vowing not to overlook the two-win Raiders. But Orton struggled after an early touchdown pass to Sammy Watkins, throwing an interception and posting five straight three-and-outs on Buffalo's next six possessions to put the Bills in a hole they never could overcome.

 

The Bills ran for just 13 yards despite the return of C.J. Spiller from a broken collarbone. That was their worst rushing performance since gaining 4 yards against Tennessee on Nov. 23, 1997.

In terms of those two games Orton was not very good against the Raiders. He still threw for 329 yards and had roughly an average QBR of 47.5. The game EJ played against the Texans was the worst QB performance that I have ever seen live (the worst that I have ever seen period is that game that Rex Grossman played around Christmas time about 10-12 years ago). EJ had a QBR of 7.4 in that game.

 

It is okay to say that it is to early to tell on him but I wouldn't be using that Texans game as a part of your argument. Guys have bad games and in that particular game he was an abomination. He has had good games as well.

Edited March 23, 2015 by Kirby Jackson

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

In terms of those two games Orton was not very good against the Raiders. He still threw for 329 yards and had roughly an average QBR of 47.5. The game EJ played against the Texans was the worst QB performance that I have ever seen live (the worst that I have ever seen period is that game that Rex Grossman played around Christmas time about 10-12 years ago). EJ had a QBR of 7.4 in that game.

 

It is okay to say that it is to early to tell on him but I wouldn't be using that Texans game as a part of your argument. Guys have bad games and in that particular game he was an abomination. He has had good games as well.

the Raiders????

 

May I counter with -

 

In terms of those two games EJ was not as good as he could have been against the Chargers (Philip Rivers) and Texans (JJ Watt) .......

 

I can also point to the 237 Total Net Yards by the Offense in the somewhat humiliating loss to the Dolphins.

http://www.buffalobills.com/schedules/game/2014/regular11

 

I'd rather not get into comparing Russel Wilson's #s with Orton's again to argue the merits of passing yards alone.

 

I truly hope you don't expect me to answer for apparent scores of fans that seem to believe that the responsibility for Raiders' loss rests solely on the defense. Perhaps you've been involved in discussions where folks have said that; I haven't to my recollection. I will say, however, that it's a much different scenario given that the defense allowed 26 points to Oakland, while only allowing 16 points to Houston, so if you're asking me to make an argument in that vain, that's my answer.

 

If you want me to assign blame to one entity for each of those losses, I'll blame the passing offense for Houston, because they missed way too many opportunities. I'll blame the defense for Oakland, as they didn't pressure the QB and never adjusted after they lost Gilmore (which is when Oakland started moving the ball, coincidentally or--more likely IMO--not).

FACTUAL EVENTS - Orton struggled after an early touchdown pass to Sammy Watkins, throwing an interception and posting five straight three-and-outs on Buffalo's next six possessions to put the Bills in a hole they never could overcome.

 

Blame the defense if you like. IMO I know where the failings were in the Raiders game.

Edited March 23, 2015 by BillsFan-4-Ever

[negativo]

I can honestly say I have no clue who will be the opening day starter, but as far as making the final roster Cassell is probably a lock being a game managing veteran who also has value as a mentoring backup. He makes the final cut barring injury.

 

The real battle is between Tyrod and EJ for who will be the lone young gun to make the roster. The loser of the competition between them probably gets waived, while the winner pushes to start.

[Kirby Jackson]

the Raiders????

 

May I counter with -

 

In terms of those two games EJ was not as good as he could have been against the Chargers (Philip Rivers) and Texans (JJ Watt) .......

 

I can also point to the 237 Total Net Yards by the Offense in the somewhat humiliating loss to the Dolphins.

http://www.buffalobills.com/schedules/game/2014/regular11

 

I'd rather not get into comparing Russel Wilson's #s with Orton's again to argue the merits of passing yards alone.

The point that I was making is that in your argument to build up EJ just leave the Texans game out of it. He was awful and with pretty much anyone else under center that day, they win that game. I'm not sure the same can be said for the Raiders game. The Bills played poorly against the Raiders (including Orton). EJ played poorly against the Texans and the rest of the team was good enough to win.

[ddaryl]

EJ wins the battle and shows us he can be a starting QB. he won't be a top passer but with Romans offense a year watching Orton some and being mentored by Cassel he will win the camp battle and manage games better and we will make the playoffs

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

one last post on this for a while ....

The point that I was making is that in your argument to build up EJ just leave the Texans game out of it. He was awful and with pretty much anyone else under center that day, they win that game. I'm not sure the same can be said for the Raiders game. The Bills played poorly against the Raiders (including Orton). EJ played poorly against the Texans and the rest of the team was good enough to win.

my argument to build up EJ is an argument that EJ may be better than some think.

 

This is what I have been seeing reported by some posters Kirby

 

The TEAM plays poorly with KO in a loss, but only EJ plays poorly in a loss?

 

another side note before I move on ....... Rivers ... isn't he a guy even you are clamoring for in a trade?

Edited March 23, 2015 by BillsFan-4-Ever

[Kirby Jackson]

one last post on this for a while ....

my argument to build up EJ is an argument that EJ may be better than some think.

 

This is what I have been seeing reported by some posters Kirby

 

The TEAM plays poorly with KO in a loss, but only EJ plays poorly in a loss?

 

another side note before I move on ....... Rivers ... isn't he a guy even you are clamoring for in a trade?

I hear you. In that particular example though Orton was better vs. Oakland than EJ was vs. Houston. It weakens your argument when you try to compare the 2 to justify your point. Just say he was brutal against Houston but pretty good at Chicago. Focus on his good performance not propping up his bad ones.

 

On the Rivers front I would LOVE Phil Rivers. I would trade this year's 2nd and my next 2 1sts if I had to. You should have him at a high level for 3-5 years and be a legitimate Super Bowl contender through that entire window. It would be like Manning to Denver (but with more talent and better coaching).

[thebandit27]

FACTUAL EVENTS - Orton struggled after an early touchdown pass to Sammy Watkins, throwing an interception and posting five straight three-and-outs on Buffalo's next six possessions to put the Bills in a hole they never could overcome.

 

Blame the defense if you like. IMO I know where the failings were in the Raiders game.

 

So let me get this straight...the offense (specifically Orton) is at fault for the Raiders' game, but EJ is not at fault for the Houston game?

 

That is, to the letter, the exact thought process that you demanded that I answer for earlier in this thread.

 

Whether you choose to acknowledge it or not, the game was 19-17 Oakland entering the 4th Q, and the two teams traded punts. Then Buffalo's defense allowed a 10-play, 80-yard drive that took 5+ minutes off the clock and left them down 9 points. I assume this doesn't count as a "failing" in your book?

[JESSEFEFFER]

In terms of those two games Orton was not very good against the Raiders. He still threw for 329 yards and had roughly an average QBR of 47.5. The game EJ played against the Texans was the worst QB performance that I have ever seen live (the worst that I have ever seen period is that game that Rex Grossman played around Christmas time about 10-12 years ago). EJ had a QBR of 7.4 in that game.

 

It is okay to say that it is to early to tell on him but I wouldn't be using that Texans game as a part of your argument. Guys have bad games and in that particular game he was an abomination. He has had good games as well.

 

Pro Football Focus credited Sammy with 3 drops. I think there were two drops by others as well. JJ Watt had the single highest game grade ever given to any defensive player. They credited him with 15 pressures and 9 QB hits. I suspect EJ may have had some minor role in this because we heard rumors of missed protection calls and incorrect drops but letting JJ Watt run amok will wreck an offense. I doubt any o-lineman had a positive grade that day but some want to act like the team was performing well and that any other QB would have performed well enough that day for a win. I think EJ did well to take only 2 sacks and still have a shot to win in the last two minutes and failed due to an egregious no call PI on Woods that lead to the Int.

 

 

Joe Flacco's day against Houston in a December game with playoff implications:

 

21 of 50 for 195 yds, 2TD, 3 Int and a tQBR of 3.2.

Edited March 24, 2015 by JESSEFEFFER

[Kirby Jackson]

 

Pro Football Focus credited Sammy with 3 drops. I think there were two drops by others as well. JJ Watt had the single highest game grade ever given to any defensive player. They credited him with 15 pressures and 9 QB hits. I suspect EJ may have had some minor role in this because we heard rumors of missed protection calls and incorrect drops but letting JJ Watt run amok will wreck an offense. I doubt any o-lineman had a positive grade that day but some want to act like the team was performing well and that any other QB would have performed well enough that day for a win. I think EJ did well to take only 2 sacks and still have a shot to win in the last two minutes and failed due to an egregious no call PI on Woods that lead to the Int.

 

 

Joe Flacco's day against Houston in a December game with playoff implications:

 

21 of 50 for 195 yds, 2TD, 3 Int and a tQBR of 3.2.

Again, this is the type of post that drives people labeled as the "EJ haters" nuts. He had a QBR of 7.4!! He missed guys all over the field that were running free. It is no coincidence that after this game tape was replayed he was sent to the bench.

 

It is like people feel the need to defend every game that he has played. Go back, rewatch that game and tell me that was even okay out there. When people defend performances like that it makes no sense. The guy doesn't need to be defended for everything that he does.

 

Flacco was brutal against the Bills 2 years ago. Guys have bad games. I will promise you didn't see Ravens fans after that game making excuses for him. He is a guy that has won a Super Bowl. If people want to defend his good games like Miami last year or say that he doesn't have enough starts, by all means go for it. To argue that he could have had 3 more completions in a game where he was atrocious is just weak. Just chalk that up like the Pittsburgh game, Tampa game and SD games. Make your argument based on his positive performances not trying to prop up his bad ones.

Edited March 24, 2015 by Kirby Jackson