the Bills new spread offense attack

[Rockinon]

Nice well thought out post, BackInDaDay. This offense will absolutely employ some spread concepts with the receiver talent on this team. What will really make this interesting is presnap motion. The addition of Charles Clay, and Percy Harvin is going really mix things up. Both can be lined up all over the field. These thing create misdirection and force defenses to decide, sometimes too late.

 

I don't however envision the spread as the only base. There will be some 2 and possibly 3 TE sets as well. I know many are thinking that we don't have the personnel, but think about Roman's history. The addition of Clay as a move TE is definitely a part of it. I see the Bills going after another TE, a big bruiser type at some point as well. There will be a few wrinkles. Don't be surprised to even see additional offensive linemen utilized.

 

No doubt, the spread will be used, but some power schemes will be used as well with some trickery thrown in to make it interesting.

 

Here is a lengthy explanation on how the Niners ran the ball under Roman:

 

http://www.ninersnation.com/2012/8/15/3199935/the-abstract-running-game

Edited March 22, 2015 by Rockinon

[K D]

Nice well thought out post, BackInDaDay. This offense will absolutely employ some spread concepts with the receiver talent on this team. What will really make this interesting is presnap motion. The addition of Charles Clay, and Percy Harvin is going really mix things up. Both can be lined up all over the field. These thing create misdirection and force defenses to decide, sometimes too late.

 

I don't however envision the spread as the only base. There will be some 2 and possibly 3 TE sets as well. I know many are thinking that we don't have the personnel, but think about Roman's history. The addition of Clay as a move TE is definitely a part of it. I see the Bills going after another TE, a big bruiser type at some point as well. There will be a few wrinkles. Don't be surprised to even see additional offensive linemen utilized.

 

No doubt, the spread will be used, but some power schemes will be used as well with some trickery thrown in to make it interesting.

yep. we have the personnel for a spread attack but that's not the base. so this thread topic is not accurate. if anything, they will deploy multiple schemes based on the defense/opponent. we can be like a swiss army knife of sorts but to say we are a spread offense team is not accurate

[Willyville Guy]

Really good first post in this thread. I'm concerned about using a mismatch-oriented spread offense that doesn't include a substantial amount of QB runs. Those runs are very often the correct read and make that style of offense "go." Without the right QB, the willingness to run a QB into the ground, and the lack of an o-line that can run the zone schemes that usually come along with that type of attack... well, there's a lot of work to do if that's the direction the Bills are moving.

 

Good thing it's only March.

[Kemp2Warlick]

 

EJ is going to be the starter. I think it's probably very long odds that Cassel will be able to beat him out for the job seeing how he doesn't bring anything more to the table than EJ other than experience. Manuel has speed, size and mobility that Cassel can't offer yet probably makes Roman drool thinking about the possibilities of using Manuel's running skills in conjunction with the elite skill players they have now.

 

IMO Roman will pick Manuel over Cassel just like he picked Kaepernick over Smith.

 

If EJ is the starter prepare for an 8 and 8 season....Cassel starts there will be a chance for a 10 and 6 season

[YoloinOhio]

Really good first post in this thread. I'm concerned about using a mismatch-oriented spread offense that doesn't include a substantial amount of QB runs. Those runs are very often the correct read and make that style of offense "go." Without the right QB, the willingness to run a QB into the ground, and the lack of an o-line that can run the zone schemes that usually come along with that type of attack... well, there's a lot of work to do if that's the direction the Bills are moving.

 

Good thing it's only March.

agree. Concepts from Urban's offense - absolutely. I see it in the personnel. But he is willing to run his QBs into the ground with all the design runs. That can't work in the nfl and they won't do it. It's fine in college when you have 5 star talent down the bench and they aren't getting paid, and rotate out every 3-4 yrs. His qbs are expected to run as part of the offense. That part can't be used as part of the scheme but as a threat to run when the play breaks down (like Russell Wilson, etc) that can be effective too and more viable in the nfl.

 

Urban has a couple Alex smith types in his QB que (as opposed to Braxton miller types, which he has too) so should one of those guys end up playing at some point we will see him employ more of the latter from his Utah days.

Edited March 22, 2015 by YoloinOhio

[BackInDaDay]

While the personnel and the talent call for a spread look, most of Roman's run plays are big on big (iso, counter, dive, trap). He likes to use the fullback and use motion a lot to try and give the defense different looks. He might start out with a spread look but then motion to a power I. Watch a SF game. They put the power in power running. This is something McCoy isn't known for. He likes to dance in the hole like CJ. Thats one of the reasons why Chip wanted to get rid of him. He wants someone that is going to hit the hole full steam ahead (that's why they went after Gore and then Murray). That's why I'm confused about why the Bills went after McCoy. He has always been a zone read RB. He has never run behind a FB. What makes them think he's going to be successful in Roman's offense? Unless like you say they are going to work out of a spread look and thus abandon his typical power running game. I'll be interested to see how it plays out.

 

agree with everything but the bolded..

 

as you say - Roman has shown he can use spread concepts to shift in and out of power formations with the use of a H-back, or use traditional double tight or unbalanced formations to force the defense to account for the numbers advantage he creates to the strong side. the point you raise about McCoy is valid - i read the same thing about McCoy's inability to hit the hole as designed in Kelly's offense. this becomes problematic when - for example - Roman's pulling the strong side guard to come back and lead McCoy to his cutback on the weakside. if Roman has to make allowances for McCoy's lack of discipline, it will become known. just as Roman having to use his strong side TE or H-back in the pulling guard's role, when he realizes his guard can't get weakside quick enough to lead the play. this is what i was talking about when i talked about Roman and Cromer tinkering with combinations of schemes to use in the power game.

[BackInDaDay]

agree. Concepts from Urban's offense - absolutely. I see it in the personnel. But he is willing to run his QBs into the ground with all the design runs. That can't work in the nfl and they won't do it. It's fine in college when you have 5 star talent down the bench and they aren't getting paid, and rotate out every 3-4 yrs. His qbs are expected to run as part of the offense. That part can't be used as part of the scheme but as a threat to run when the play breaks down (like Russell Wilson, etc) that can be effective too and more viable in the nfl.

 

"the best Roman can do is to take elements of the spread philosophy - primarily the idea of getting the ball to your most gifted players where there's a number advantage at the point of attack - and implement them to whatever degree of risk he and Rex are willing to take with their QB. the acquisitions of McCoy, Clay and Harvin are a means to this end - giving Roman the ability to design the QB out of the spread offense's numbers game. having more than enough talent to over match your opponent in the run game without incorporating your QB is essential in the pros. he now has the ability to answer a defense willing to put 7 or 8 in the box with a sprinkling of elements taken from a spread Air Raid attack using Watkins, Goodwin, Woods, and Easley or Hogan - along with Harvin."

[Rockinon]

I added a link to my previous post explaining Roman's running concepts. A good read, though kind of lengthy. Roman likes to load up blockers in an effort to increase the number of gaps as opposed to the number of defenders. He does this with additional OLmen, TEs, FBs....basically anyone who can effectively put a hat on their man.

 

The presnap movement is key because the defense doesn't know where a move TE will pull up and block. Also, guys like Harvin can start out wide, run all the way across the formation to where his blocks are on a sweep. More gaps than defenders means a hole will be created. Honestly, I cannot see Roman getting away from the power run game. He likes to attack in different areas but there is one theme. There are generally more blockers than defenders, which means there are more gaps to run through. This is a classic power concept.

 

Don't be fooled though, the OP is absolutely correct about running the spread. We have too many great receivers to not have them on the field creating mismatches in the secondary. This means that defenders will have to cover them. It also means there will be fewer defending the run. The offense is going to use a combination of spread and power schemes.

[BackInDaDay]

I added a link to my previous post explaining Roman's running concepts. A good read, though kind of lengthy. Roman likes to load up blockers in an effort to increase the number of gaps as opposed to the number of defenders. He does this with additional OLmen, TEs, FBs....basically anyone who can effectively put a hat on their man.

 

The presnap movement is key because the defense doesn't know where a move TE will pull up and block. Also, guys like Harvin can start out wide, run all the way across the formation to where his blocks are on a sweep. More gaps than defenders means a hole will be created. Honestly, I cannot see Roman getting away from the power run game. He likes to attack in different areas but there is one theme. There are generally more blockers than defenders, which means there are more gaps to run through. This is a classic power concept.

 

Don't be fooled though, the OP is absolutely correct about running the spread. We have too many great receivers to not have them on the field creating mismatches in the secondary. This means that defenders will have to cover them. It also means there will be fewer defending the run. The offense is going to use a combination of spread and power schemes.

yes, thats. very good article, and i agree with what you're expressing regarding the power running game.. but i think many here are confusing the spread offensive philosophy with spread formations. the concepts in that article are the same as those expressed by Meyer when he began developing his offense at Bowling Green.

 

a power running game within a spread offense accomplishes its numbers advantage in various ways - but primarily by movement.. forcing a defense to try to match up where they're obviosly at a disadvantage, and then striking where they've exposed themselves.

 

i really think our lack of athletic interior linemen will be the only reason Roman may have to break the huddle with personnel that limits what he can move in and out of. so yes, we could become less dynamic in some packages

 

edit- good article with a funky link.. just google the football times and meyer spread offense philosophy

Edited March 22, 2015 by BackInDaDay

[Codyny13]

I really think the biggest discrepancy from last year will be Aaron kromer. Having him focus on just the o-line will bring out the best of him and our young talent. He did wonders with the Saints a few years back and really helped create the schemes that got Sproles into space. I remember players wanting to go from New Orleans to Chicago to follow him.

[BackInDaDay]

I really think the biggest discrepancy from last year will be Aaron kromer. Having him focus on just the o-line will bring out the best of him and our young talent. He did wonders with the Saints a few years back and really helped create the schemes that got Sproles into space. I remember players wanting to go from New Orleans to Chicago to follow him.

there's a lot riding on what he can get done with our guards.. we can't become any kind of offense if we can't get linemen downfield in the run game

[Big Turk]

Look at how well we ran under Chan Gailey out of spread formations...spread formations by their nature create running lanes and puts teams in disadvantageous positions to stop the run because they have to allocate people out wide and away from the LOS to cover receviers. Now, the question is can we power it in there when we need to? On 3rd and 1 or 4th and 1...then again, not sure why teams always bring people to the line of scrimmage by bringing everyone in tight to the line and running power football...it would seem much smarter to continue running out of a spread formation where you only have to deal with 5 or 6 players in the box and can run various traps, pulls and motions to give you big advantages at the point of attack...

 

I shudder to think what Chan Gailey could have schemed up with the talent we have on offense right now...

 

I agree that Aaron Kromer is going to upgrade the line several notches just by his presence and teaching ability to teach proper fundamentals and situational football.

[Codyny13]

there's a lot riding on what he can get done with our guards.. we can't become any kind of offense if we can't get linemen downfield in the run game

I agree, and I think our guards are an unknown. The reports that the bills were trying to bring in Bulaga makes me think they may want to kick Seantrel inside. I'm not sure what they do with the 50th pick but if a bulldozing guard is there like an A.j Cann I wouldn't be surprised to see them make that pick. I'm also excited to see what Cyril can become. We always hear about the big jump players make from year 1 to 2 and I'm hoping that comes to fruition. same goes for Seantrel.

[Big Turk]

I agree, and I think our guards are an unknown. The reports that the bills were trying to bring in Bulaga makes me think they may want to kick Seantrel inside. I'm not sure what they do with the 50th pick but if a bulldozing guard is there like an A.j Cann I wouldn't be surprised to see them make that pick. I'm also excited to see what Cyril can become. We always hear about the big jump players make from year 1 to 2 and I'm hoping that comes to fruition. same goes for Seantrel.

 

I'm more excited to see the jump they can make under good coaching with Kromer...he is the most important off season acquisition we have made

[Codyny13]

I really think the biggest discrepancy from last year will be Aaron kromer. Having him focus on just the o-line will bring out the best of him and our young talent. He did wonders with the Saints a few years back and really helped create the schemes that got Sproles into space. I remember players wanting to go from New Orleans to Chicago to follow him.

[San-O]

there's a lot riding on what he can get done with our guards.. we can't become any kind of offense if we can't get linemen downfield in the run game

 

 

+ 100

 

Excellent OP, thank you.

 

Although I lack the knowledge and insight of the the OP, I also do believe this team can go as far as the O line will let them, ot take them, and right

now it's bascially the same players...

 

I hope Ryan and Roman know something about these O limemen that nobody else does, or it will be a lot of wasted talent and cap space.

Also, I recall some point in the past reading the Bills had the largest average O line in the league? if so, these guys weren't selected because they're

quick and agile... yes?

[#34fan]

I hope we're not giving up on this draft as a source of some excellent weapons... McCoy... Charles Clay... Harvin... While inspiring, these pickups are not NEARLY enough offense to deliver Rex's promised "Bully"

 

I'm hoping we double-down on TE, RB, and WR... Jesse James, Josh Robinson, and Sammie Coates, respectively... I realize we probably don't have a shot at Coates, but the others are attainable... My football phiosophy is simple. -Overkill. We've been the whipping-boy in this division for far too long.

Edited March 22, 2015 by #34fan

[Rockinon]

62 Campbell, William G 6-4 311 23 2 Michigan

77 Glenn, Cordy T 6-6 345 25 3 Georgia

66 Henderson, Seantrel T 6-7 331 23 R Miami (FL)

Incognito, Richie G 6-3 319 31 9 Nebraska

Johnson, Darryl G 6-4 295 24 R New Mexico

71 Kouandjio, Cyrus T 6-7 322 21 R Alabama

Kupper, Alex G 6-3 299 25 1 Louisville

73 Morrell, D.J. G 6-6 325 23 R Old Dominion

68 Richardson, Cyril G 6-5 343 24 R Baylor

60 Urbik, Kraig G 6-5 324 29 6 Wisconsin

74 Williams, Chris G 6-6 320 29 7 Vanderbilt

70 Wood, Eric C 6-4 310 29 6 Louisville

 

Interesting. I wonder if the coaching staff doesn't think they have some answers all ready on the roster. One thing is clear. This is not the same as last year. That's 12 offensive linemen on the current roster. 3 of them don't even have a number yet.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Rockinon

[San-O]

Eric Wood | Center

Height: 6' 4" Weight: 310 lb.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

it's become obvious that Greg Roman is building Rex a spread offense born out of the 'run first' variations he incorporated for Harbaugh while at Frisco. his success in translating A Smith's experience in Urban Meyer's Utah spread option offense into something familiar enough for him to run in the NFL, was critical in Smith's resurgence as an NFL QB. and after taking Smith as far as he could, he then employed the same idea of making another young QB comfortable, when he installed elements of the offense C.Kap had learned running Brian Polian's (yep - Bill's son) Pistol version of the spread option at Nevada.

 

although i'm not a fan, it's no surprise that Rex was working out B.Petty the other day. Baylor's Art Briles has been running a 'pass first' - Air Raid version of the spread down at Baylor with a lot of success. as a matter of fact, both Briles and West Virginia's Dana Holgorsen have sent recent QBs to the NFL, the latest being WV's G.Smith - when Rex chose him as the Jets QB of the future.

 

now, there's been a lot of talk about 'ground and pound' around here, and it's no fault of the fans or the team's media for repeating the chant - as that's how Rex has chosen to describe his offensive philosophy. but one shouldn't think of a spread offense running attack as three succesive double TE, FB led, dive plays. the pounding that takes place in a spread run game is usually being done to out-numbered, second level defenders.

 

this style of offense does have it's fair share of problems in the pros. as Roman and C.Kelly in Philly have discovered - it's difficult to execute many 'run first' spread offense plays in the NFL without the threat of the QB keeping the ball. personally, i believe this is what's kept Meyer out of the NFL - if he can't risk running his QB, then many of his bread and butter run options - whether it's his outside zone, inside zone, or inverted veer - become empty bluffs. Chip Kelly is running into this wall in Philly, just as Roman - to an extent, did in Frisco.

 

the best Roman can do is to take elements of the spread philosophy - primarily the idea of getting the ball to your most gifted players where there's a number advantage at the point of attack - and implement them to whatever degree of risk he and Rex are willing to take with their QB. the acquisitions of McCoy, Clay and Harvin are a means to this end - giving Roman the ability to design the QB out of the spread offense's numbers game. having more than enough talent to over match your opponent in the run game without incorporating your QB is essential in the pros. he now has the ability to answer a defense willing to put 7 or 8 in the box with a sprinkling of elements taken from a spread Air Raid attack using Watkins, Goodwin, Woods, and Easley or Hogan - along with Harvin.

 

i am concerned with the lack of athleticism on our O line. much of what can be run without the QB - counter trey, power sweeps - require trap and pull techniques that will challenge our current roster of guards. i'm under the impression that picking up Felton gives Roman an alternative in his blocking schemes, should we go to battle with what we've got. i'm sure there will be a lot of tinkering in camp, and perhaps into the season, before Roman and Cromer can come up with a nice blend of personnel packages that get the job done, without tipping things off.

 

as far as the QB situation goes, Roman will build an offense that takes as much pressure off the QB position as possible, but this is the NFL., and QBs have to make plays when they present themselves. the fact that neither Cassel, Manuel or Taylor came from collegiate spread offenses puts them all on even footing in that regard - but you can't dismiss what Cassel's years of experience bring - including the fact that his most prolific season was under Belichik in NE, after Belichik and Meyer got chummy, and started swapping strategies. but i'm sure in Cassel's time in the pros, he's seen his fair share of spread concepts in multiple stops. also, and not too surprisingly, considering the proliferation of spread offensive philosphies in college, is the fact that Tuel was coached for a year at Washington State by the man who taught both Briles and Holgorsen the Air Raid spread offense - Mike Leach. that may help Tuel pick up some of it's concepts quickly, but i don't think Roman will install enough of it, that it will be a factor in the QB competition - but you never know.

 

so i do believe our base O will be what's commonly referred to as spread offense, and that it will definitely try to spread out the front six in those heavy nickle defenses (335/425) being discussed elsewhere - in order to run through them. it will have a 'run first' philosophy with enough weapons to attack however the defense responds. it will also employ some risk by exposing our QBs to limited contact, but only enough to establish the threat of the QB as a runner - to set up some spread option plays.

 

it should be fun to see how everything comes together.

 

 

Tebow would be perfect for this