OCinBuffalo Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 (edited) One wonders what we did to deserve this thread being started once a year/six months, and how long our penance will last. There is the point/problem about apostasy to consider, intellectually, however. It cannot simply be overlooked with the tired, old "misinterpretation" excuse: If a religion is truly borne of a communion with God, those that turn away from it are God's problem, not man's. What need does God have for apostasy/non-believer "rules"? If He is God, and we are truly talking about eternal life/damnation, it's obtuse to have rules about apostasy on earth. Why does Muhammed's version of God needs man to do his judging/executing work for him? Everybody else's version of God can handle it. Why does Allah require man's "help"? Doesn't that move God's judgement closer to human's? That reeks of convenience, expediency, and the same excuses every totalitarian in history has made: "I have to kill some of the people to "protect" all of the people." Otherwise known as "I will kill some of the people as a warning to the others that deviation from my word is death". IF any philosophy is worth a damn, it stands on its own, and every individual is free to choose it, or not. It doesn't require punishment for non-believers or apostates, because, by definition, it is bigger than us all. It can't be that, and also require it's adherents to go on petty quests to hunt down apostates and non-believers, at the same time. In a more modern version: Tony Robbins has made 50x the $ Scientology has. Robbins, if he even has apostates, ignores them. Scientology behaves like Islam. So, as I said, there's an intellectual, logical, sticking point here, that cannot be brushed off with PC(otherwise known as anti-intellectual) excuses. We have empirical evidence to prove that a sound philosophy, in its non-bastardized form, requires no punishment for those that don't adhere/turn away, and gains followers on its merits. However, even with Allah's noblest of men of today, the apostasy rules remain literal. That is both a distinction and a real difference that is unavoidable and requires the honest to recognize it as the defect in reason that it is. Therefore, every truly thinking person is, by definition, forced to be more skeptical of Islam, than of the other great faiths. Christianity bids its followers to go out and convince, Islam largely bids its followers to go out and conquer, another defect in reason, if we are to consider Islam as "the same" as any other religion. And please understand, defect in reason does not mean mass executions, so you PC idiots: don't even start. Defect in reason means Islam has a Lvl 1 bug that needs fixing. Edited March 29, 2015 by OCinBuffalo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 (edited) One wonders what we did to deserve this thread being started once a year/six months, and how long our penance will last. There is the point/problem about apostasy to consider, intellectually, however. It cannot simply be overlooked with the tired, old "misinterpretation" excuse: If a religion is truly borne of a communion with God, those that turn away from it are God's problem, not man's. What need does God have for apostasy/non-believer "rules"? If He is God, and we are truly talking about eternal life/damnation, it's obtuse to have rules about apostasy on earth. Why does Muhammed's version of God needs man to do his judging/executing work for him? Everybody else's version of God can handle it. Why does Allah require man's "help"? Doesn't that move God's judgement closer to human's? That reeks of convenience, expediency, and the same excuses every totalitarian in history has made: "I have to kill some of the people to "protect" all of the people." Otherwise known as "I will kill some of the people as a warning to the others that deviation from my word is death". IF any philosophy is worth a damn, it stands on its own, and every individual is free to choose it, or not. It doesn't require punishment for non-believers or apostates, because, by definition, it is bigger than us all. It can't be that, and also require it's adherents to go on petty quests to hunt down apostates and non-believers, at the same time. In a more modern version: Tony Robbins has made 50x the $ Scientology has. Robbins, if he even has apostates, ignores them. Scientology behaves like Islam. So, as I said, there's an intellectual, logical, sticking point here, that cannot be brushed off with PC(otherwise known as anti-intellectual) excuses. We have empirical evidence to prove that a sound philosophy, in its non-bastardized form, requires no punishment for those that don't adhere/turn away, and gains followers on its merits. However, even with Allah's noblest of men of today, the apostasy rules remain literal. That is both a distinction and a real difference that is unavoidable and requires the honest to recognize it as the defect in reason that it is. Therefore, every truly thinking person is, by definition, forced to be more skeptical of Islam, than of the other great faiths. Christianity bids its followers to go out and convince, Islam largely bids its followers to go out and conquer, another defect in reason, if we are to consider Islam as "the same" as any other religion. And please understand, defect in reason does not mean mass executions, so you PC idiots: don't even start. Defect in reason means Islam has a Lvl 1 bug that needs fixing. Jesus(PBUH) never said he was God. That didn't stop people from thinking it. Apostasy is only supposed to be enforced if the person doesn't leave Islam quietly. It's okay to leave. In both of these instances the people were the ones that got it wrong. Not the books. Edited March 29, 2015 by Justice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OCinBuffalo Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 (edited) Jesus(PBUH) never said he was God. That didn't stop people from thinking it. Apostasy is only supposed to be enforced if the person doesn't leave Islam quietly. It's okay to leave. In both of these instances the people were the ones that got it wrong. Not the books. Ok, but that still doesn't answer why there are any rules at all in the Koran. That's the crux of the argument: why do we need man's rules, when Allah is perfectly capable of handling the eternal souls of men? The rules themselves reduce Allah's position as God, because man's rules, for reasons passing understanding, need to exist in Islam. No they don't, yet there they are. That's a bug. You won't find Jesus or Buddha giving out specific instructions as to what to do to whom, and how to kill them. Nor do you find stories about the battles Jesus or Buddha lead to conquer and convert by force. And, please, that's perhaps the most charitable interpretation of Islam's position on apostasy I have ever read. People are hunted down and killed/jailed on a regular basis TODAY, for apostasy, in the name of Islam, and you're telling me that the very methods used to do so aren't specifically spelled out in the Koran? Yes they are. And like I said, that's a defect of reason. If God is God, he doesn't require man's puny intellect or utter lack of wisdom, in comparison, to pass judgement in his name on earth. As DC_Tom has said many times: Islam needs a reformation. I agree, if for no other reason than to permanently prevent Islamic men from continuing to get it wrong. Without reform, when can we expect Islamic men to cease getting it wrong? 10 years from now, 20? Edited March 29, 2015 by OCinBuffalo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 Ok, but that still doesn't answer why there are any rules at all in the Koran. That's the crux of the argument: why do we need man's rules, when Allah is perfectly capable of handling the eternal souls of men? The rules themselves reduce Allah's position as God, because man's rules, for reasons passing understanding, need to exist in Islam. No they don't, yet there they are. That's a bug. You won't find Jesus or Buddha giving out specific instructions as to what to do to whom, and how to kill them. Nor do you find stories about the battles Jesus or Buddha lead to conquer and convert by force. And, please, that's perhaps the most charitable interpretation of Islam's position on apostasy I have ever read. People are hunted down and killed/jailed on a regular basis TODAY, for apostasy, in the name of Islam, and you're telling me that the very methods used to do so aren't specifically spelled out in the Koran? Yes they are. And like I said, that's a defect of reason. If God is God, he doesn't require man's puny intellect or utter lack of wisdom, in comparison, to pass judgement in his name on earth. As DC_Tom has said many times: Islam needs a reformation. I agree, if for no other reason than to permanently prevent Islamic men from continuing to get it wrong. Without reform, when can we expect Islamic men to cease getting it wrong? 10 years from now, 20? Apostasy was needed in the infancy stages of Islam and I understand why it remains today, but it's true, you can not enforce apostasy if someone leaves quietly. God is merciful, but there is certain lines that can't be passed. When you leave the religion and speak out against it, you're going against God's words and there's a serious punishment on earth as well as the after-life. People can't see the after-life, but they can see on earth. Therefore punishment is necessary here as well. I can not stress it enough though. If you leave quietly you will not be put to death. Whoever is doing that is wrong. Can't convert by force, either. That's wrong. What you might have heard is sparing of lives to those that convert during times of war, because it is forbidden to kill other muslims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 [citation needed] Why do you want to reward these guys for posting crap like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 I'd also like to add that there are homosexual churches and synagogues. Does these make the religions flawed or is it the people that are flawed, because homosexuality is strictly forbidden in any of the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 Apostasy was needed in the infancy stages of Islam and I understand why it remains today, but it's true, you can not enforce apostasy if someone leaves quietly. God is merciful, but there is certain lines that can't be passed. When you leave the religion and speak out against it, you're going against God's words and there's a serious punishment on earth as well as the after-life. People can't see the after-life, but they can see on earth. Therefore punishment is necessary here as well. I can not stress it enough though. If you leave quietly you will not be put to death. Whoever is doing that is wrong. Can't convert by force, either. That's wrong. What you might have heard is sparing of lives to those that convert during times of war, because it is forbidden to kill other muslims. What about atheists? Some speak out against all religions......sometimes loudly. Most of them never "left". How does Islam reconcile with freedom of speech where it is recognized? If a U.S. citizen leaves and speaks out against Islam or any other religion it is his right as a citizen. What happens then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 What about atheists? Some speak out against all religions......sometimes loudly. Most of them never "left". How does Islam reconcile with freedom of speech where it is recognized? If a U.S. citizen leaves and speaks out against Islam or any other religion it is his right as a citizen. What happens then? It's basically the same as "forgive them for they don't know what they do" type of thing. We're told to ignore the ignorant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4merper4mer Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 It's basically the same as "forgive them for they don't know what they do" type of thing. We're told to ignore the ignorant. Got it. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
/dev/null Posted March 29, 2015 Share Posted March 29, 2015 That's a debate you can have the OP - in fact I brought up the non-truncated quote to show that the quote was more about colonizer vs colonized and not on how there was some NAZI ISLAM meeting of the minds. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/muftihit.html http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10007665 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeviF Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Jesus(PBUH) never said he was God. That didn't stop people from thinking it. One of you Christians here needs to jump on this because I hear this **** all the time from Muslims/atheists/whatevers and it's just wrong, according to the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 One of you Christians here needs to jump on this because I hear this **** all the time from Muslims/atheists/whatevers and it's just wrong, according to the Bible. While they're at it maybe they can explain to me the "forgive them for they know not what they do" and the "why have you forsaken me" lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Apostasy was needed in the infancy stages of Islam and I understand why it remains today, but it's true, you can not enforce apostasy if someone leaves quietly. God is merciful, but there is certain lines that can't be passed. When you leave the religion and speak out against it, you're going against God's words and there's a serious punishment on earth as well as the after-life. People can't see the after-life, but they can see on earth. Therefore punishment is necessary here as well. I can not stress it enough though. If you leave quietly you will not be put to death. Whoever is doing that is wrong. Can't convert by force, either. That's wrong. What you might have heard is sparing of lives to those that convert during times of war, because it is forbidden to kill other muslims. So if one speaks out about Islam after leaving it, they deserve to die, and possibly in an ugly manner? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justice Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 So if one speaks out about Islam after leaving it, they deserve to die, and possibly in an ugly manner? Tough questions and I don't intend to sugarcoat it. Yes they do, but honestly I don't know the manner in which their life can be taken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Tough questions and I don't intend to sugarcoat it. Yes they do, but honestly I don't know the manner in which their life can be taken. Probably beheading. It was the most merciful death available at the time the punishment was laid down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azalin Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Tough questions and I don't intend to sugarcoat it. Yes they do, but honestly I don't know the manner in which their life can be taken. You believe death is an acceptable fate for those who speak out against Islam after leaving the faith? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Tough questions and I don't intend to sugarcoat it. Yes they do, but honestly I don't know the manner in which their life can be taken. Wow. Just wow, and you call yourself a moderate Muslim? You and I have had many conversations over the last few years and you have been careful to not let this side of you come out. Well, now i know, so phuck you and your beliefs. I pray that your 72 virgins all have dicks and want to use them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeviF Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Wow. Just wow, and you call yourself a moderate Muslim? You and I have had many conversations over the last few years and you have been careful to not let this side of you come out. Well, now i know, so phuck you and your beliefs. I pray that your 72 virgins all have dicks and want to use them. Give the guy some credit; at least he's honest about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fingon Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Funny that there is so much hatred and strife between three religions that all branched off from the same Sumerian/Babylonian gods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meazza Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Tough questions and I don't intend to sugarcoat it. Yes they do, but honestly I don't know the manner in which their life can be taken. Classy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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