Inside The Mind Of Islam's False Prophet Muhammad

[DC Tom]

The real hilarity is the pseudo-profound idea that they're all Muslims, even if they don't all believe the same things, so they are responsible for the actions of another in that group. Talk about an arbitrary division. Why don't we make people from the same family responsible for each other? Or folks who shares 50% of HLA proteins? Or, in a broader sense, live in the same country? If I'm a white Polish-American living in Montana, should I have had my flashlight out to try to find the Unabomber? If not, some blame lay with me, right?

 

As Bills fans, we're all complicit in the Oklahoma City bombing...

[Justice]

It's a clear analog of the situation that we are currently discussing. You don't see the parallels of two fringe, religious groups taking passages uncommonly cited or followed from their holy text, and following them zealously?

 

Answer the questions.

 

Also, let's see some direct quotes from Justice. Not "something along the lines of," that's not good enough.

 

He doesn't want them to just condemn, he wants them to "join the fray." Because God knows, if there's one group of folks I want fighting terrorist zealots, it's pious, peaceful civilians.

When it comes to killing someone for committing apostasy I don't like it, but I do understand it. This is a complex topic. Death isn't always the punishment. Each violator must be given a chance and a certain amount of time to repent, before whatever punishment is rendered. I want to make it clear that those that leave Islam quietly will not be punished at all, it's the people that try to convince others to join them that gets punished.

 

The reason why I said they deserve whatever punishment they get is because they should have simply left quietly. I still don't like it. There's a process that must take place before punishment is carried out. That process must be followed. Vigilantes acting on their own accord without following the necessary steps are wrong for that.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Justice

[shrader]

The real hilarity is the pseudo-profound idea that they're all Muslims, even if they don't all believe the same things, so they are responsible for the actions of another in that group. Talk about an arbitrary division. Why don't we make people from the same family responsible for each other? Or folks who shares 50% of HLA proteins? Or, in a broader sense, live in the same country? If I'm a white Polish-American living in Montana, should I have had my flashlight out to try to find the Unabomber? If not, some blame lay with me, right?

 

At the same time though, I get fed up with the "they're not real Muslims" response, as if that somehow ends the discussion. If this group is bastardizing the teachings of Islam, it's not going to be catholics or jews who are going to start teaching the religion the right way. It's going to be Muslims. They're not responsible, but they're in the best position to correct this in the future.

[DC Tom]

 

At the same time though, I get fed up with the "they're not real Muslims" response, as if that somehow ends the discussion. If this group is bastardizing the teachings of Islam, it's not going to be catholics or jews who are going to start teaching the religion the right way. It's going to be Muslims. They're not responsible, but they're in the best position to correct this in the future.

 

Yes, but if you keep demonizing them as Muslims, you create an "us vs. them" division between the Muslim world and everyone else.

 

That's the point. It's strategically inept to call them Muslims when they're not. It's better to make the distinction (e.g. "We don't consider ISIS Muslim, since they clearly run counter to just about everything in the Koran." Hammer that point, and let the Islamic world debate the accuracy of it.) Better to say that, than to call them Islamic and encourage the rest of Islam to view our actions as an oppression of ALL of Islam.

[Justice]

 

Yes, but if you keep demonizing them as Muslims, you create an "us vs. them" division between the Muslim world and everyone else.

 

That's the point. It's strategically inept to call them Muslims when they're not. It's better to make the distinction (e.g. "We don't consider ISIS Muslim, since they clearly run counter to just about everything in the Koran." Hammer that point, and let the Islamic world debate the accuracy of it.) Better to say that, than to call them Islamic and encourage the rest of Islam to view our actions as an oppression of ALL of Islam.

Well said!

[3rdnlng]

It's a clear analog of the situation that we are currently discussing. You don't see the parallels of two fringe, religious groups taking passages uncommonly cited or followed from their holy text, and following them zealously?

 

Answer the questions.

 

Also, let's see some direct quotes from Justice. Not "something along the lines of," that's not good enough.

He doesn't want them to just condemn, he wants them to "join the fray." Because God knows, if there's one group of folks I want fighting terrorist zealots, it's pious, peaceful civilians.

I suggest that you go back and read post #'s 24, 34, 44, 80, 82, 83, 90, 92 and 98 of this thread. You know posts that you must have already read since you were involved in the conversation. Justice has made it clear that he believes that killing for apostasy is justifiable if the person doesn't leave the religion quietly. He also admits that he doesn't want to know how or when it is done. If that's not burying your head in the sand I don't what is. My point here is that so called moderate Muslims should do a much better job of speaking out against what would appear to be millions of Islamic radicals. The attitude that Justice displays not only would appear to condone the radicals but fosters the thought process that groups the "moderates" in with the radicals.

 

Just to make it clear I am not suggesting that Justice or anyone else takes up arms against terrorists. In asking them to "join the fray" I'm asking them to speak out and make it clear that they abhor the actions of the radicals. They don't get to say that it is horrific and then qualify it with a but.............

 

Comparing puny Westboro Baptist Church and their assinine shenanigans with the death and destruction caused by Al Qaeda and ISIS is ridiculous and you should know better. WBC has been widely denounced by nearly everybody.

Well said!

Again, where is it written that female mutilation is forbidden in the Muslim world?

 

Yes, but if you keep demonizing them as Muslims, you create an "us vs. them" division between the Muslim world and everyone else.

 

That's the point. It's strategically inept to call them Muslims when they're not. It's better to make the distinction (e.g. "We don't consider ISIS Muslim, since they clearly run counter to just about everything in the Koran." Hammer that point, and let the Islamic world debate the accuracy of it.) Better to say that, than to call them Islamic and encourage the rest of Islam to view our actions as an oppression of ALL of Islam.

Do they run counter to just about everything in the Koran?

 

In other words we should give the moderates a free pass to pursue their yes/but positions when it comes to radical Islam?

[GG]

 

Yes, but if you keep demonizing them as Muslims, you create an "us vs. them" division between the Muslim world and everyone else.

 

That's the point. It's strategically inept to call them Muslims when they're not. It's better to make the distinction (e.g. "We don't consider ISIS Muslim, since they clearly run counter to just about everything in the Koran." Hammer that point, and let the Islamic world debate the accuracy of it.) Better to say that, than to call them Islamic and encourage the rest of Islam to view our actions as an oppression of ALL of Islam.

 

Fine in theory, but hasn't worked in execution because it allows the Muslim world plausible deniability to the terrorist acts because they're not coming from true Muslims, so it's not up to them to fix the problems. At the end of the day, the Islamic world has to address the issue, and not acknowledging that the terrorist movement is prevalent in non-modernized Muslim societies sweeps the problem under the rug.

[DC Tom]

 

Fine in theory, but hasn't worked in execution because it allows the Muslim world plausible deniability to the terrorist acts because they're not coming from true Muslims, so it's not up to them to fix the problems. At the end of the day, the Islamic world has to address the issue, and not acknowledging that the terrorist movement is prevalent in non-modernized Muslim societies sweeps the problem under the rug.

 

When has it even been tried? Closest anyone came is Bush saying that we were at war with al Qaeda, not Islam, which is not the same thing (particularly when you're stupid enough to follow it up with "We're on a crusade." )

 

And to treat Islam as a monolithic bloc is a peculiar Western fallacy doomed to failure anyhow, since most of the "Islamic" issues we have to deal with don't stem from Islam, but from tribalism (on which Islam is at best overlaid). You address Islamic extremism from the perspective of tribal divisions in the Arab and Arab-influenced Muslim world, and you have a much better chance of success than treating Islam as a whole as the problem. Doubly so in dealing with ISIS, which is probably the only current conflict between the West and Islamic extremists that doesn't have a tribal basis...because so many of the ISIS jihadists are imported, not native, which makes it a damn near perfect situation for reinforcing the exact "they are not your tribe" distinctions I'm talking about.

[Justice]

I suggest that you go back and read post #'s 24, 34, 44, 80, 82, 83, 90, 92 and 98 of this thread. You know posts that you must have already read since you were involved in the conversation. Justice has made it clear that he believes that killing for apostasy is justifiable if the person doesn't leave the religion quietly. He also admits that he doesn't want to know how or when it is done. If that's not burying your head in the sand I don't what is. My point here is that so called moderate Muslims should do a much better job of speaking out against what would appear to be millions of Islamic radicals. The attitude that Justice displays not only would appear to condone the radicals but fosters the thought process that groups the "moderates" in with the radicals.

 

Just to make it clear I am not suggesting that Justice or anyone else takes up arms against terrorists. In asking them to "join the fray" I'm asking them to speak out and make it clear that they abhor the actions of the radicals. They don't get to say that it is horrific and then qualify it with a but.............

 

Comparing puny Westboro Baptist Church and their assinine shenanigans with the death and destruction caused by Al Qaeda and ISIS is ridiculous and you should know better. WBC has been widely denounced by nearly everybody.

 

Again, where is it written that female mutilation is forbidden in the Muslim world?

 

Do they run counter to just about everything in the Koran?

 

In other words we should give the moderates a free pass to pursue their yes/but positions when it comes to radical Islam?

I can and did speak for myself. I do not condone the radicals. Not even a little bit. Why don't you take me at my word? It's getting to the point where I may have to block you. There's no reasoning with you. You take everything the worst possible way.

 

For example, I said they don't teach terrorism in nearly the amount of madrassas as you think and you took that as me saying they do in half of them. Where did you get that number from? And now you say I condone the acts of radicals. I don't. And when I say I don't want to know, which I ended up doing anyways, I meant I won't be the one doing it so I don't need to know.

 

I get questioned here by some asking if I'd actually kill someone, and if they teach calculus at a madrassa (school). I'd never ask any of you those questions. Believe in what you want to believe in. I don't care. Live and let live, but questions like those tells me everything I need to know about the questioners views and knowledge on Islam.

 

I didn't answer that question the first time because it was a stupid question. How big of a book would it be if it told people every single thing they CAN'T do? It doesn't mention crack anywhere in the Koran either, should we assume it's okay to smoke it then? Obviously not.

 

The funny thing is I learned about Muslim extremists from the news and from this board. My parents both prayed 5 times a day and they didn't teach me none of this stuff. Same for every other Muslim I've ever met or known.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Justice

[GG]

 

When has it even been tried? Closest anyone came is Bush saying that we were at war with al Qaeda, not Islam, which is not the same thing (particularly when you're stupid enough to follow it up with "We're on a crusade." )

 

And to treat Islam as a monolithic bloc is a peculiar Western fallacy doomed to failure anyhow, since most of the "Islamic" issues we have to deal with don't stem from Islam, but from tribalism (on which Islam is at best overlaid). You address Islamic extremism from the perspective of tribal divisions in the Arab and Arab-influenced Muslim world, and you have a much better chance of success than treating Islam as a whole as the problem. Doubly so in dealing with ISIS, which is probably the only current conflict between the West and Islamic extremists that doesn't have a tribal basis...because so many of the ISIS jihadists are imported, not native, which makes it a damn near perfect situation for reinforcing the exact "they are not your tribe" distinctions I'm talking about.

 

It's beyond tribalism in the Arab-influenced world, because that wouldn't explain Africa and rest of Asia. Yet the patterns are very similar, and of course tribalism plays a major role, but tribalism does not explain the influx of foreign fighters from the west. How does a British born youth with no ancestral ties to Syrian lands identify with ISIS? He doesn't. But he identifies with a call from his imam.

 

The problem, as has been discussed is that there is no Muslim guide to a life in a modern world that separates the dogma from every day life. There's been no Reformation. If anything, over the last 50 years, the predominant Muslim teachings have urged greater insularity from modernism. You can argue that part of the tribal wars is the beginning of this process, but all I see is fighting among the extremists to see who can most effectively roll back the clock to 700 AD.

[Justice]

 

It's beyond tribalism in the Arab-influenced world, because that wouldn't explain Africa and rest of Asia. Yet the patterns are very similar, and of course tribalism plays a major role, but tribalism does not explain the influx of foreign fighters from the west. How does a British born youth with no ancestral ties to Syrian lands identify with ISIS? He doesn't. But he identifies with a call from his imam.

 

The problem, as has been discussed is that there is no Muslim guide to a life in a modern world that separates the dogma from every day life. There's been no Reformation. If anything, over the last 50 years, the predominant Muslim teachings have urged greater insularity from modernism. You can argue that part of the tribal wars is the beginning of this process, but all I see is fighting among the extremists to see who can most effectively roll back the clock to 700 AD.

http://www.pennlive.com/opinion/2015/04/make_no_mistake_what_isis_prac.html

 

1. Do not kill any child, any woman, or any elder or sick person.

 

2. Do not practice treachery or mutilation.

 

3. Do not uproot or burn palms or cut down fruitful trees.

 

4. Do not slaughter a sheep or a cow or a camel, except for food.

 

5. If one fights his brother, [he must] avoid striking the face, for God created him in the image of Adam."

 

6. Do not kill the monks in monasteries, and do not kill those sitting in places of worship.

 

7. Do not destroy the villages and towns, do not spoil the cultivated fields and gardens, and do not slaughter the cattle.

 

8. Do not wish for an encounter with the enemy; pray to God to grant you security; but when you [are forced to] encounter them, exercise patience.

 

9. No one may punish with fire except the Lord of Fire.

 

10. "Accustom yourselves to do good if people do good, and to not do wrong even if they commit evil.

 

According to Muhammad's rules for war, as documented by his closest followers, beheadings or any practice of mutilation of treachery is forbidden; and women, children, the elderly and the sick are to be protected by faithful Muslims, not violated and killed.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Justice

[3rdnlng]

I can and did speak for myself. I do not condone the radicals. Not even a little bit. Why don't you take me at my word? It's getting to the point where I may have to block you. There's no reasoning with you. You take everything the worst possible way.

 

For example, I said they don't teach terrorism in nearly the amount of madrassas as you think and you took that as me saying they do in half of them. Where did you get that number from? And now you say I condone the acts of radicals. I don't. And when I say I don't want to know, which I ended up doing anyways, I meant I won't be the one doing it so I don't need to know.

 

I get questioned here by some asking if I'd actually kill someone, and if they teach calculus at a madrassa (school). I'd never ask any of you those questions. Believe in what you want to believe in. I don't care. Live and let live, but questions like those tells me everything I need to know about the questioners views and knowledge on Islam.

 

I didn't answer that question the first time because it was a stupid question. How big of a book would it be if it told people every single thing they CAN'T do? It doesn't mention crack anywhere in the Koran either, should we assume it's okay to smoke it then? Obviously not.

 

The funny thing is I learned about Muslim extremists from the news and from this board. My parents both prayed 5 times a day and they didn't teach me none of this stuff. Same for every other Muslim I've ever met or known.

Did you not see the post in which I said that by cutting things in half was part of the making fun of not only you but OC and the people ripping him apart?

 

As far as the bolded above goes you said in post #237 of this thread: "Of course there are some madrassas that are extremist but no where near all of them." I used your words to facetiously estimate that half of them were extremist schools. Since "no where near all" sounds like over half but not near to all should I revise my figure to 3/4's?

 

As far as female mutilation goes you claimed that it was forbidden in Islam. Where and why was it forbidden? Remember, you started this with all of your holier than thou talk about STD's, white wedding gowns, premarital sex and virginity.

[GG]

http://www.pennlive.com/opinion/2015/04/make_no_mistake_what_isis_prac.html

 

 

 

According to Muhammad's rules for war, as documented by his closest followers, beheadings or any practice of mutilation of treachery is forbidden; and women, children, the elderly and the sick are to be protected by faithful Muslims, not violated and killed.

 

Are you trying to help me make a point? Every religion can point to the theology that Thou Shalt Not Kill, etc. But show me the Mid East guide or established cultural answer to "My daughter wants to go to Cancun for spring break. What bikini should she pack?" When the fanatics can answer the question without tossing the daughter off the cliff, then things would be different.

[Justice]

Did you not see the post in which I said that by cutting things in half was part of the making fun of not only you but OC and the people ripping him apart?

 

As far as the bolded above goes you said in post #237 of this thread: "Of course there are some madrassas that are extremist but no where near all of them." I used your words to facetiously estimate that half of them were extremist schools. Since "no where near all" sounds like over half but not near to all should I revise my figure to 3/4's?

 

As far as female mutilation goes you claimed that it was forbidden in Islam. Where and why was it forbidden? Remember, you started this with all of your holier than thou talk about STD's, white wedding gowns, premarital sex and virginity.

You're gonna have to prove that because I never said it was forbidden. It's not even mentioned. Why lie?

 

Your post is confusing. First you say you were mocking OC then you ask if it's 3/4? Not even 3/4. I have no clue. If I told you I'd be lying. All of my family members go and went to a madrassa. None of them were extremist schools. None.

 

Are you trying to help me make a point? Every religion can point to the theology that Thou Shalt Not Kill, etc. But show me the Mid East guide or established cultural answer to "My daughter wants to go to Cancun for spring break. What bikini should she pack?" When the fanatics can answer the question without tossing the daughter off the cliff, then things would be different.

I didn't even come close to making your point. The reason why I posted that was to prove to you ISIS isn't Islamic. It's anti-Islamic.

 

As far as Cancun goes I can answer that for you. If my daughter wants to go there for spring break she better pack for the long haul because she can stay there. She's not welcome back to my home.

[GG]

I didn't even come close to making your point. The reason why I posted that was to prove to you ISIS isn't Islamic. It's anti-Islamic.

 

As far as Cancun goes I can answer that for you. If my daughter wants to go there for spring break she better pack for the long haul because she can stay there. She's not welcome back to my home.

 

And if you ask ISIS, they'll pull out the scripture to show that they are working at the behest of Allah.

 

And thanks for reaffirming Islam's acceptance of modernity. Note that I didn't describe what your daughter may be doing in Cancun, but if her mere trip to a sunny beach gets her thrown out of the house is enough of a hint.

[Jauronimo]

 

And if you ask ISIS, they'll pull out the scripture to show that they are working at the behest of Allah.

 

And thanks for reaffirming Islam's acceptance of modernity. Note that I didn't describe what your daughter may be doing in Cancun, but if her mere trip to a sunny beach gets her thrown out of the house is enough of a hint.

Cancun is haram.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Jauronimo

[Justice]

 

And if you ask ISIS, they'll pull out the scripture to show that they are working at the behest of Allah.

 

And thanks for reaffirming Islam's acceptance of modernity. Note that I didn't describe what your daughter may be doing in Cancun, but if her mere trip to a sunny beach gets her thrown out of the house is enough of a hint.

Why don't you show it to me, because they're breaking all those 10 rules of war.

 

I live in Miami. They can enjoy the beach with the family anytime they want. No problem.

 

Maybe when you hear Cancun that's what you think, just enjoying the sun, when I hear Cancun I think of drugs, alcohol, wild behavior, bikinis and sex. Maybe she comes home pregnant. Maybe she comes home with a disease. Maybe she comes home hooked on drugs or alcohol.

 

You think Jesus (pbuh) would've spent his spring in a place like Cancun when the college kids are there? When you see Cancun do you see something closer to God or the Devil?

Cancun is haram.

Lol. Haram.

 

Now if you would've asked me if she can go off to college than my answer is yes, she can. I realize they party at school too, but hopefully she'll just stick to learning.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Justice

[GG]

Why don't you show it to me, because they're breaking all those 10 rules of war.

 

I live in Miami. They can enjoy the beach with the family anytime they want. No problem.

 

Maybe when you hear Cancun that's what you think, just enjoying the sun, when I hear Cancun I think of drugs, alcohol, wild behavior, bikinis and sex. Maybe she comes home pregnant. Maybe she comes home with a disease. Maybe she comes home hooked on drugs or alcohol.

 

You think Jesus (pbuh) would've spent his spring in a place like Cancun when the college kids are there? When you see Cancun do you see something closer to God or the Devil?

Lol. Haram.

 

What does Jesus have to do with youngsters going to Cancun? You can't separate your theology from a trip to the beach? You can't trust your daughter to abstain from the sins of the flesh and lure of drugs & alcohol?

[Justice]

 

What does Jesus have to do with youngsters going to Cancun? You can't separate your theology from a trip to the beach? You can't trust your daughter to abstain from the sins of the flesh and lure of drugs & alcohol?

Nice way to answer the question [sarcasm]. Read my above post. I added to it. She'd look pretty ridiculous wearing a hijab in the middle of spring breakers. Would you take a recovering alcoholic to a liquor store? Edited April 16, 2015 by Justice

[3rdnlng]

http://www.pennlive.com/opinion/2015/04/make_no_mistake_what_isis_prac.html

 

1. Do not kill any child, any woman, or any elder or sick person.

 

2. Do not practice treachery or mutilation.

 

3. Do not uproot or burn palms or cut down fruitful trees.

 

4. Do not slaughter a sheep or a cow or a camel, except for food.

 

5. If one fights his brother, [he must] avoid striking the face, for God created him in the image of Adam."

 

6. Do not kill the monks in monasteries, and do not kill those sitting in places of worship.

 

7. Do not destroy the villages and towns, do not spoil the cultivated fields and gardens, and do not slaughter the cattle.

 

8. Do not wish for an encounter with the enemy; pray to God to grant you security; but when you [are forced to] encounter them, exercise patience.

 

9. No one may punish with fire except the Lord of Fire.

 

10. "Accustom yourselves to do good if people do good, and to not do wrong even if they commit evil.

 

According to Muhammad's rules for war, as documented by his closest followers, beheadings or any practice of mutilation of treachery is forbidden; and women, children, the elderly and the sick are to be protected by faithful Muslims, not violated and killed.

Thanks for the comic relief. What does a list of rules on the conduct of war have to do with the practice of FGM?