The dangers of our new normal...

[Magox]

[Deranged Rhino]

[Magox]

[Deranged Rhino]

[Magox]

[Deranged Rhino]

I will get to that, I promise...

[Magox]

[Deranged Rhino]

I will get to that, I promise...

[Deranged Rhino]

NSA contractor arrested for alleged theft of top secret classified information

 

 

The FBI has arrested a National Security Agency contractor on suspicion of the theft of top secret classified data and documents in an alleged security breach at the same intelligence agency whose spy secrets were exposed by Edward Snowden.

Disclosure of the documents stolen “could be expected to cause exceptionally grave damage to the national security of the US”, claimed the justice department in a press release giving details of the criminal complaint against Harold Thomas Martin III, 51, of Glen Burnie, Maryland.

(snip)

“There is no evidence that Hal Martin intended to betray his country,” said Martin’s attorneys Jim Wyda and Deborah Boardman in a statement, according to the Washington Post. “What we do know is that Hal Martin loves his family and his country. He served honorably in the United States Navy as a lieutenant and he has devoted his entire career to protecting his country. We look forward to defending Hal Martin in court.” They said the charges against Martin were “mere allegations” and they had not yet seen prosecutors’ evidence.

The justice department confirmed that Martin worked for the same company as Snowden when he exposed details of NSA mass surveillance methods three years ago.

Martin has been in custody since a court appearance in August. According to the New York Times, Martin is suspected of taking the “source code” developed by the agency to break into computer systems of adversaries like Russia, China, Iran and North Korea.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/oct/05/nsa-contractor-arrested-harold-thomas-martin-edward-snowden

Edited October 6, 2016 by Deranged Rhino

[DC Tom]

NSA contractor arrested for alleged theft of top secret classified information

 

 

The FBI has arrested a National Security Agency contractor on suspicion of the theft of top secret classified data and documents in an alleged security breach at the same intelligence agency whose spy secrets were exposed by Edward Snowden.

Disclosure of the documents stolen “could be expected to cause exceptionally grave damage to the national security of the US”, claimed the justice department in a press release giving details of the criminal complaint against Harold Thomas Martin III, 51, of Glen Burnie, Maryland.

(snip)

“There is no evidence that Hal Martin intended to betray his country,” said Martin’s attorneys Jim Wyda and Deborah Boardman in a statement, according to the Washington Post. “What we do know is that Hal Martin loves his family and his country. He served honorably in the United States Navy as a lieutenant and he has devoted his entire career to protecting his country. We look forward to defending Hal Martin in court.” They said the charges against Martin were “mere allegations” and they had not yet seen prosecutors’ evidence.

The justice department confirmed that Martin worked for the same company as Snowden when he exposed details of NSA mass surveillance methods three years ago.

Martin has been in custody since a court appearance in August. According to the New York Times, Martin is suspected of taking the “source code” developed by the agency to break into computer systems of adversaries like Russia, China, Iran and North Korea.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/oct/05/nsa-contractor-arrested-harold-thomas-martin-edward-snowden

 

Perfect situation for the Clinton "There was no intent, I was just careless" defense.

[Dante]

Show us the proof that the US is purposely funding ISIS and Al Qaeda via proxy vs. the Russians and Assad.

 

This is your claim, you stated it as fact, now show us, tinfoil nut.

They have done it before they are doing it now. Criminals. Putin's a choir boy compared to people like Hillary and Barry.

 

http://www.globalresearch.ca/america-created-al-qaeda-and-the-isis-terror-group/5402881

[Deranged Rhino]

Since Gator has returned in my absence, I'd like to bump an old post from nearly two years ago to remind us all (not just Gator) once again that the issues we're talking about in this thread aren't left or right issues. They're not political issues at all no matter how they've been framed. They're existential threats to our civil liberties and our democratic republic as a whole.

 

(emphasis added)

 

 

Let's walk this out a bit more. The bulk of your assets are in 1s and 0s on a computer, you access this through your debit cards and credit cards. All of that is logged and stored for analysis whenever it's deemed necessary. More and more of your bills are paid with automatic debits from your accounts, increasing your dependency upon being connected each passing day. So far you've never tripped any alarms or alerts at the state level because you live an otherwise normal life and abide by the laws of the land. You're not a killer, you're not a terrorist, you're not a kook plotting to blow someone up for whatever reason. You're Gatorman, US citizen, going about your day.

 

Cut to 2016. Unless something mildly historic happens, the GOP (whom you seemingly don't like very much, go along with it if that's not entirely accurate for the sake of this example) is going to win the presidency. Now, imagine that they ran your WORST nightmare, doesn't matter who -- it could be W again -- and he won. Now the GOP is in power, controlling the senate, house and executive. Now imagine that the new president is every bit the bastard you fear he would become, he's overturning gay marriages, he's repealing the ACA, he's about to start WW3 by bombing Iran because he had a bad BM to start his morning -- I'm talking your absolute worst nightmare of a president. Still with me?

 

Rightfully enraged by #45's new policies, you begin to exercise your right to free speech by donating money to the opposition party. The new president, as part of his scheme, wrote an executive order (classified top secret) that added "alerts" to all the watch lists of the surveillance apparatus. These alerts create a list of anyone who donates to the opposition party, or anyone who mentions going to a rally on the phone/email/text/social media. Even in jest. The moment you begin to move those 1s and 0s around in your bank account towards Elizabeth Warren's campaign, you're added to their watch list. Without needing a warrant, or without you having any knowledge they're doing so, the intelligence apparatus begins to go back through your entire history to see who you are. To look for ways to discredit you should they need to. Let's say this bastard of a president wants to take it one step further and freeze anyone's assets who pop up on the watch list (regardless of reason). So, your bank accounts are frozen (without warning), your mortgage payments, car payments, all your bills begin to mount up with no way to pay them. When you go to the bank to solve the problem, the bank tells you their hands are tied. The government doesn't have to tell them why they ordered your accounts frozen, that's classified. The bank has to comply and you're !@#$ed. No access to your money, no understanding of why this happened... all because you tried to voice an opposition opinion as is your right as a US citizen.

 

All of this, right now, today, is legal and possible without a warrant or need for judicial oversight. Think about that. Without due process, the US Government can declare you a threat to national security (without having to prove anything more than a suspicion) and completely remove your democratic means of expressing yourself. This has always been possible on some scale, history is full of tyrants imprisoning innocents. But no tyrant has ever had the amount of control today's US Government is capable of. I said it earlier and you scoffed, but if information is power then what the government has today is absolute power. And that always leads to absolute control.

 

While the idea of the above scenario seems unlikely to go that bad in a year's time, what happens 10 years from now? Twenty? Say it's 2035, it's been over two decades without a terrorist attack on US soil. ISIS / whoever is the boogeyman of the day has been defeated. But these policies are still on the books because the public has already considered them a fait accompli -- who's stopping the powers that be in 2035 from amending these laws and powers to suit their own political interests? Especially when they don't have to tell us (as the law is written today) that they've changed it at all?

 

You'll read this and think it's paranoia, but I urge you to inform yourself on the realities of the world you're living in first. If you do, you'll see that everything I walked out in this scenario is legal and possible today. The only thing that has prevented it from happening are the people currently in power. How much faith in those elected representatives keeping to the straight and narrow without abusing what essentially is unlimited power over the individual do you actually have? Hasn't there been enough political malfeasance over your lifetime to make you at least a little suspicious or hesitant to willingly surrender your individual right to privacy and due process to a faceless, nameless government entity with zero oversight?

 

Stay woke.

[Tiberius]

Since Gator has returned in my absence, I'd like to bump an old post from nearly two years ago to remind us all (not just Gator) once again that the issues we're talking about in this thread aren't left or right issues. They're not political issues at all no matter how they've been framed. They're existential threats to our civil liberties and our democratic republic as a whole.

 

(emphasis added)

 

 

 

Stay woke.

Trump could abuse this system for sure, and it would not surprise me if he did, but to reiterate, this is an old problem, not a new. Dictatorships, widespread corruption and lots of bad things have happened before. Trump may have new tools, but ultimately his power rests with the people that love him. He really might get a pass with almost anything with a GOP congress, I don't think they will ever challenge him. But, that has always been a danger and will remain. I don't think the technology matters as much as the fact that the people who support him will support him no matter what. This false equilevency applied to everrtyhing he does gives him a pass.

 

So, to summarize, he might be really, really bad, but not because of a new normal in technology, but because of historical circumstances--demographic shifts--and flaws in the republic--gerrymandering, senate's conservativism and the elector college--which will not guarantee checks and balances. Hopefully, this too shall pass.

[DC Tom]

Trump could abuse this system for sure, and it would not surprise me if he did, but to reiterate, this is an old problem, not a new. Dictatorships, widespread corruption and lots of bad things have happened before. Trump may have new tools, but ultimately his power rests with the people that love him. He really might get a pass with almost anything with a GOP congress, I don't think they will ever challenge him. But, that has always been a danger and will remain. I don't think the technology matters as much as the fact that the people who support him will support him no matter what. This false equilevency applied to everrtyhing he does gives him a pass.

 

So, to summarize, he might be really, really bad, but not because of a new normal in technology, but because of historical circumstances--demographic shifts--and flaws in the republic--gerrymandering, senate's conservativism and the elector college--which will not guarantee checks and balances. Hopefully, this too shall pass.

 

I'm just going to jump straight to the punch line again.

 

But you're the (*^*&%^$^#that compared invasion of privacy in the US to Gestapo tactics to begin with. Greg asked when in history was it possible to abridge freedoms as can be done now, and you specifically said "The Gestapo did it physically."

 

You actually dismissed concerns about the abridgement of rights with a "No big deal, Nazi's did it too" argument (which any sane person would consider an argument FOR concern, not against). Then you dismiss your own backwards reducto ad absurdum fallacious argument with a straw man fallacy that invasion of privacy is not the same as Nacht und Nebel.

 

You've managed to create an entirely new kind of logical fallacy. Literally. What you have done - contradicting one's own ridiculous logic with an equally ridiculous straw man, both based on a complete confusion of two distinct topics - has never before been formally identified in the two and a half millenia of the existence of logic itself.

 

The Gatorman Fallacy. Something entirely new and different in the field of logic. I could publish a paper on this.

Edited November 30, 2016 by DC Tom

[Deranged Rhino]

Trump could abuse this system for sure, and it would not surprise me if he did, but to reiterate, this is an old problem, not a new. Dictatorships, widespread corruption and lots of bad things have happened before. Trump may have new tools, but ultimately his power rests with the people that love him. He really might get a pass with almost anything with a GOP congress, I don't think they will ever challenge him. But, that has always been a danger and will remain. I don't think the technology matters as much as the fact that the people who support him will support him no matter what. This false equilevency applied to everrtyhing he does gives him a pass.

 

So, to summarize, he might be really, really bad, but not because of a new normal in technology, but because of historical circumstances--demographic shifts--and flaws in the republic--gerrymandering, senate's conservativism and the elector college--which will not guarantee checks and balances. Hopefully, this too shall pass.

 

To be fair, this is an entirely different point is it not? I'm not arguing the technological capabilities of the intelligence services in this country made Trump "bad", nor am I talking about the multitude of factors that made Trump's victory possible.

 

I'm talking about the dangers inherent in giving the government a blank check when it comes to "fighting the war on terror". The technology we have today has given the government more control over the individual citizen than at any point in human history. Over the past 13+ years the same government has worked to strip away the very legal protections and civil liberties intended and designed to protect our rights.

 

The post I bumped from 2015 was pointing out the fallacy many on the left were/have been making under Obama's presidency, namely that "it's okay because a good guy is president thus there's no risk of him abusing these massive powers". When Bush's administration birthed the Patriot Act, the loudest voices of dissent came from the left (and there weren't many at the time because the country was still grieving from the events of 9/11). During Obama's presidency, one in which he originally campaigned on buffing these powers though in reality he expanded the powers dramatically, the loudest voices of dissent have come from the right.

 

Both sides are missing the point.

 

It's not a political issue. It's a fundamental civil liberties issue. Our democracy cannot function as intended without privacy and due process. Both sides of the aisle should be able to look past the political rhetoric and fearmongering that normally accompanies this topic and see the bigger picture but so far we've failed that test.

 

Now we have a president elect who is a complete wild card. A wild card who now is at the levers of the most sophisticated and omni-present security state ever created.

 

That's why this topic is bigger than politics. Surely you are beginning to see that bigger point, no?

[DC Tom]

Surely you are beginning to see that bigger point, no?

 

You're delusional.

[Nanker]

 

I'm just going to jump straight to the punch line again.

 

 

But you're the (*^*&%^$^#that compared invasion of privacy in the US to Gestapo tactics to begin with. Greg asked when in history was it possible to abridge freedoms as can be done now, and you specifically said "The Gestapo did it physically."

 

You actually dismissed concerns about the abridgement of rights with a "No big deal, Nazi's did it too" argument (which any sane person would consider an argument FOR concern, not against). Then you dismiss your own backwards reducto ad absurdum fallacious argument with a straw man fallacy that invasion of privacy is not the same as Nacht und Nebel.

 

You've managed to create an entirely new kind of logical fallacy. Literally. What you have done - contradicting one's own ridiculous logic with an equally ridiculous straw man, both based on a complete confusion of two distinct topics - has never before been formally identified in the two and a half millenia of the existence of logic itself.

 

The Gatorman Fallacy. Something entirely new and different in the field of logic. I could publish a paper on this.

 

For those keeping score, below is a Venn diagram of the Gatorman Fallacy.

 

Edited November 30, 2016 by Nanker

[Tiberius]

 

 

Now we have a president elect who is a complete wild card. A wild card who now is at the levers of the most sophisticated and omni-present security state ever created.

 

That's why this topic is bigger than politics. Surely you are beginning to see that bigger point, no?

Sure, it is a system that can absolutely be abused. It is a danger.

[Azalin]

 

To be fair, this is an entirely different point is it not? I'm not arguing the technological capabilities of the intelligence services in this country made Trump "bad", nor am I talking about the multitude of factors that made Trump's victory possible.

 

I'm talking about the dangers inherent in giving the government a blank check when it comes to "fighting the war on terror". The technology we have today has given the government more control over the individual citizen than at any point in human history. Over the past 13+ years the same government has worked to strip away the very legal protections and civil liberties intended and designed to protect our rights.

 

The post I bumped from 2015 was pointing out the fallacy many on the left were/have been making under Obama's presidency, namely that "it's okay because a good guy is president thus there's no risk of him abusing these massive powers". When Bush's administration birthed the Patriot Act, the loudest voices of dissent came from the left (and there weren't many at the time because the country was still grieving from the events of 9/11). During Obama's presidency, one in which he originally campaigned on buffing these powers though in reality he expanded the powers dramatically, the loudest voices of dissent have come from the right.

 

Both sides are missing the point.

 

It's not a political issue. It's a fundamental civil liberties issue. Our democracy cannot function as intended without privacy and due process. Both sides of the aisle should be able to look past the political rhetoric and fearmongering that normally accompanies this topic and see the bigger picture but so far we've failed that test.

 

Now we have a president elect who is a complete wild card. A wild card who now is at the levers of the most sophisticated and omni-present security state ever created.

 

That's why this topic is bigger than politics. Surely you are beginning to see that bigger point, no?

 

Just so you know, you're replying to a plagiarized cut & paste job.

 

I just might have to take him off ignore - the stuff I'm seeing quoted is highly amusing.

[Tiberius]

Now a creep is accusing me of cutting and pasting?