Gugny Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 I don't agree that with Alex Smith level Quarterback play we would be a Superbowl contender (we'd be a play-off team but we wouldn't be going deep) or that Tannehill was far better than Smith last season. The teams that go deep in the play-offs all have Quarterbacks that can make explosive plays. I don't believe either Smith or Tannehill do that - that is why you are stuck in that purgatory with them. Tannehill was not far better than Smith last year. To keep this a little more relevant, I'll ask this .... If Kyle Orton had remained a Buffalo Bill and was the starter next year, how far do you think the Bills could go?
1billsfan Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 (edited) I don't agree that with Alex Smith level Quarterback play we would be a Superbowl contender (we'd be a play-off team but we wouldn't be going deep) or that Tannehill was far better than Smith last season. The teams that go deep in the play-offs all have Quarterbacks that can make explosive plays. I don't believe either Smith or Tannehill do that - that is why you are stuck in that purgatory with them. Bingo! Both Smith and Tannehill suck when the games start meaning something and the going gets get tough. Anyone remember the Indy playoff game when the Chiefs' Smith couldn't answer the bell in the second half? The Chiefs were 1-4 in their last 5 games last year. Geno Smith rolled Tannehill in their last game 3 TDs to 1 TD. Ask Miami fans how good Tannehill is when the games mean something. Yet this is what Bills fans would be happy with in 2015. Amazing. Understanding that it takes QB's time to develop and being skeptical about EJ Manuel after two years in the league are not mutually exclusive. Also I find it highly interesting that the "you can't possibly know anything about a QB after two years" crowd are the same ones who like to mock Geno Smith and act like, well of course Manuel is better than Geno Smith. Not me, I think that Geno and Manuel are on the same level. I think they were both raw QBs who have both shown just enough signs of being a viable starting QB that they deserved this third year to either make it or find another team. Both have different qualities, but I see them both currently at the same level. I think that both of them win the starting job too. IMO Fitz is done as a QB who can win the starting job, even with Gailey there. As for part one, fine be skeptical...just stop with the over-the-top bashing of Manuel if you want us to believe that you're being honest with regards to your qualifier. Edited March 16, 2015 by 1billsfan
FireChan Posted March 16, 2015 Author Posted March 16, 2015 (edited) Bingo! Both Smith and Tannehill suck when the games start meaning something and going gets get tough. Anyone remember the Indy playoff game when the Chiefs' Smith couldn't answer the bell in the second half? The Chiefs were 1-4 in their last 5 games last year. Geno Smith rolled Tannehill in their last game 3 TDs to 1 TD. Ask Miami fans how good Tannehill is when the games mean something. Yet this is what Bills fans would be happy with in 2015. Amazing. What explosive plays has EJ made? Besides throwing to Watt? Or a pick with the game on the line? Maybe we'll reference his first two games, which were his best, and also happened almost 3 years ago. Blaine Gabbert needs one more year, right? Edited March 16, 2015 by FireChan
LB3 Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 (edited) Fair enough, what level of QB play do you think is needed to win a Super Bowl? Romo? Ryan? Brady? I am trying to get a sense for it. For me, Alex Smith or Tannehill would be about the floor that I think that this team could win with. I am expecting a top 5 defense, a top 5 ST and a top 18 offense (with one of those guys I would say top 15). I really like the coaching staff as well. To me they need to get middle of the league play at the QB position to be a Super Bowl contender. Those guys are the middle of the league to me.GunnerBill and I seem to be thinking similarly. Here is the list of QB's I think could win a Super Bowl with this team in 2015 in no particular order: Rodgers Brady Wilson Brees Manning (x2) Rivers Roethlisberger Luck Flacco Romo Ryan Stafford Palmer Newton I think this group could get you close but not get the job done: A. Smith Tannehill Dalton Cutler (i could see him in both groups) Foles Bradford (though he's really an unknown because he's missed so much time) I could be wrong in my evaluations, but it's why I wouldn't make that trade. He's good enough to get a huge extension, but not win the Super Bowl. I said it before in this thread and I'll say it again, if I'm wrong about Tanny I will own it. Edited March 16, 2015 by KikoSeeBallKikoGetBall
1billsfan Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 What explosive plays has EJ made? Besides throwing to Watt? Or a pick with the game on the line? Maybe we'll reference his first two games, which were his best, and he's been bad since. Blaine Gabbert needs one more year, right? Blaine Gabbert couldn't hold EJ Manuel's jock strap... http://www.pro-football-reference.com
Alphadawg7 Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 What explosive plays has EJ made? Besides throwing to Watt? Or a pick with the game on the line? This statement alone proves you don't know much about EJ, you're on a crusade to smear the kid, and you have a biased hatred for some reason. He has 3 4th quarter comeback wins in just 14 games...he had a couple rookie of the week nods in his rookie 10 games...he went on the road and beat Chicago in the home opener than killed the Dolphins to start the season. You act like he has had no good moments, and its getting absurd. And you want to bring up JJ Watt...where is your threads hating the OL who let JJ Watt by himself hit EJ 9 times that game? Most QBs, especially young QBs would have a hard time playing a good game when you are hit double digit times, especially when one guy gets to you 9 times. The OL was destroyed that game like it was a high school team out there. It wasn't all EJs fault. EJ has plenty to work on, but all this garbage like he's had no good moments, no good games, etc that you whine and spew about all the time is pointless and false. He has had less bad games than he has had decent or good ones but you and others act like he's the second coming of Ryan Leaf out there. EJ may not make it or he may become a good starter...the jury is still out. If you believe he won't, fine...but at least keep it real and stop over exaggerating or starting lopsided threads to try and fuel your crusade. Why do people start polls of things that don't exist? What is the point of this poll other than to try and fuel your anti EJ campaign which is spread all over this board already?
Kirby Jackson Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 Bingo! Both Smith and Tannehill suck when the games start meaning something and the going gets get tough. Anyone remember the Indy playoff game when the Chiefs' Smith couldn't answer the bell in the second half? The Chiefs were 1-4 in their last 5 games last year. Geno Smith rolled Tannehill in their last game 3 TDs to 1 TD. Ask Miami fans how good Tannehill is when the games mean something. Yet this is what Bills fans would be happy with in 2015. Amazing Not that I want to be "that guy" but Alex Smith threw for 378 yards and 4 Tds in his last playoff start. In fact he has 9 Tds and 0 INTs in his 3 playoff starts. His career playoff rating is 108.6.
FireChan Posted March 16, 2015 Author Posted March 16, 2015 (edited) This statement alone proves you don't know much about EJ, you're on a crusade to smear the kid, and you have a biased hatred for some reason. He has 3 4th quarter comeback wins in just 14 games...he had a couple rookie of the week nods in his rookie 10 games...he went on the road and beat Chicago in the home opener than killed the Dolphins to start the season. You act like he has had no good moments, and its getting absurd. And you want to bring up JJ Watt...where is your threads hating the OL who let JJ Watt by himself hit EJ 9 times that game? Most QBs, especially young QBs would have a hard time playing a good game when you are hit double digit times, especially when one guy gets to you 9 times. The OL was destroyed that game like it was a high school team out there. It wasn't all EJs fault. EJ has plenty to work on, but all this garbage like he's had no good moments, no good games, etc that you whine and spew about all the time is pointless and false. He has had less bad games than he has had decent or good ones but you and others act like he's the second coming of Ryan Leaf out there. EJ may not make it or he may become a good starter...the jury is still out. If you believe he won't, fine...but at least keep it real and stop over exaggerating or starting lopsided threads to try and fuel your crusade. Why do people start polls of things that don't exist? What is the point of this poll other than to try and fuel your anti EJ campaign which is spread all over this board already? 2 of his 3 best games were his first 2. You seem to be missing my point. I'm saying what they're saying about Tanny. "Tanny doesn't make explosive plays." That's completely incorrect. Rather than pull them up and educate them, I'll just say the same things about EJ. It's quicker. Blaine Gabbert couldn't hold EJ Manuel's jock strap... http://www.pro-football-reference.com He's a "project." A three year plan guy. Get him more time. I can make the exact same argument for Gabbert. If you think he doesn't deserve it, you're talking out of both sides. GunnerBill and I seem to be thinking similarly. Here is the list of QB's I think could win a Super Bowl with this team in 2015 in no particular order: Rodgers Brady Wilson Brees Manning (x2) Rivers Roethlisberger Luck Flacco Romo Ryan Stafford Palmer Newton I think this group could get you close but not get the job done: A. Smith Tannehill Dalton Cutler (i could see him in both groups) Foles Bradford (though he's really an unknown because he's missed so much time) I could be wrong in my evaluations, but it's why I wouldn't make that trade. He's good enough to get a huge extension, but not win the Super Bowl. I said it before in this thread and I'll say it again, if I'm wrong about Tanny I will own it. EJ isn't in either list and you wouldn't make the trade. Wut. Edited March 16, 2015 by FireChan
1billsfan Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 Not that I want to be "that guy" but Alex Smith threw for 378 yards and 4 Tds in his last playoff start. In fact he has 9 Tds and 0 INTs in his 3 playoff starts. His career playoff rating is 108.6. Great, but what did he do in the second half of that game in Indy? Stats mean nothing if you don't put them in some context. Smith's last TD in that game was with about 12 minutes to go in the 3rd quarter, then crickets, while Indy was making a huge comeback. They lost that game by 1 point. The 30 year old Smith's playoff record is 1-2. He was 1-4 in his last 5 games last year which is crunch time in the NFL. At this point in his career, he is what he is...a dud. He's had ample opportunity and he just can't get over the above average level enough too make a difference for a team which has aspirations of winning the Superbowl.
metzelaars_lives Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 Great, but what did he do in the second half of that game in Indy? Stats mean nothing if you don't put them in some context. Smith's last TD in that game was with about 12 minutes to go in the 3rd quarter, then crickets, while Indy was making a huge comeback. They lost that game by 1 point. The 30 year old Smith's playoff record is 1-2. He was 1-4 in his last 5 games last year which is crunch time in the NFL. At this point in his career, he is what he is...a dud. He's had ample opportunity and he just can't get over the above average level enough too make a difference for a team which has aspirations of winning the Superbowl. Alex Smith played very well in that game. They had lost so many players to injury that Indianapolis was able to score at will. Not to mention their game plan was more than a little faulty in the second half. Smith did not start playing poorly in the second half. I actually watched the replay of that game on NFLN within the last year and was very impressed with the way he looked throughout that game.
1billsfan Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 He's a "project." A three year plan guy. Get him more time. I can make the exact same argument for Gabbert. If you think he doesn't deserve it, you're talking out of both sides. I never said you couldn't play poorly enough to not get that third year. Gabbert played so poorly that he didn't deserve the benefit of the doubt. You're so twisted in your hatred of Manuel that you just can't think straight. Alex Smith played very well in that game. They had lost so many players to injury that Indianapolis was able to score at will. Not to mention their game plan was more than a little faulty in the second half. Smith did not start playing poorly in the second half. I actually watched the replay of that game on NFLN within the last year and was very impressed with the way he looked throughout that game. 3 points in the final 28 minutes of a playoff game? That's not poor for a QB?
KD in CA Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 Is it the homerism or has the price of crack dropped sharply? Tannehill is a middle of the pack QB. EJ doesn't break the top 30, and his upside appears to be no better than where Tannehill is now and it's likely he'll never even get there.
Doc Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 The one that allowed more sacks, more QB hits and more negative rushing attempts than Buffalo's? Yes. The first is also a function of the QB and the Dols were 2nd in the NFL in YPR. Oh and I'd also like to see EJ with a competent OC.
FireChan Posted March 16, 2015 Author Posted March 16, 2015 (edited) I never said you couldn't play poorly enough to not get that third year. Gabbert played so poorly that he didn't deserve the benefit of the doubt. You're so twisted in your hatred of Manuel that you just can't think straight. 3 points in the final 28 minutes of a playoff game? That's not poor for a QB? Does only Alex Smith get the blame? How about their defense who let up 40? Or their receivers? Or their running game? Or their O-line? Talking out of both sides again.... Gabbert had most of his stats better than EJ's in his second year, and showed a vast improvement over his first year. Why didn't he deserve a third year? Yes. The first is also a function of the QB and the Dols were 2nd in the NFL in YPR. Oh and I'd also like to see EJ with a competent OC. Ha, so the sacks the Dolphins allowed were on the QB? But not in Buffalo? What about hits? Clearly the QB got the ball out of his hands pretty quick to avoid a sack. Edited March 16, 2015 by FireChan
LB3 Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 (edited) EJ isn't in either list and you wouldn't make the trade. Wut.He would be on a list which would include players that I would consider "unknown". It's why I didn't include players like Bridgewater or Carr. I haven't seen enough to decide yet. Edited March 16, 2015 by KikoSeeBallKikoGetBall
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 Can people just be honest and real about what happened last year already? EJ didn't suck for 4 games...he played well the first 2 games and had 2 rough games and in one of those games JJ Watt personally hit him 9 times on his own. The OL was the unit that sucked and EJ was getting hit before he finished his drop back. Any young QB would struggle in a game like that, and yet we still had a chance to win that game. I still don't understand the grossly over exaggerative attacks on him. I mean I do, this board is full of some of the worst QB evaluators I have ever seen, but still, the hate for this kid rivals the hate for Whitner, except he's done nothing to warrant all that hate. He's one of the hardest working players on the team and one of the teams biggest cheer leaders when he's not in the game. Yet people hate on him but were also the same people making excuses for the other terrible QBs like Orton, Fitz, Trent, etc. I am responding to this older post just because no matter what you say, no matter how logical, rational and or honestly these Trolls will never give up. They would rather tear the board down than act like an adult and agree to disagree. Last week one asked if we could stop the arguing and be friends, Less than 7 days later he's at it again. I am doing my best to ignore their rants. Granted Ignoring them won't stop them but it will improve the circle jerk they seem to enjoy.
Doc Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 (edited) Ha, so the sacks the Dolphins allowed were on the QB? But not in Buffalo? What about hits? Clearly the QB got the ball out of his hands pretty quick to avoid a sack. I'd say that Orton made the OL look better in terms of sacks and EJ didn't play enough games in 2014 to determine whether his 1.5 sacks/game were because of him or the OL. But as others have said, I wouldn't trade for Tannehill at this point, especially with him coming up on a new contract, unless he blows up this year. But that's a discussion for a year from now. Edited March 16, 2015 by Doc
Kirby Jackson Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 Great, but what did he do in the second half of that game in Indy? Stats mean nothing if you don't put them in some context. Smith's last TD in that game was with about 12 minutes to go in the 3rd quarter, then crickets, while Indy was making a huge comeback. They lost that game by 1 point. The 30 year old Smith's playoff record is 1-2. He was 1-4 in his last 5 games last year which is crunch time in the NFL. At this point in his career, he is what he is...a dud. He's had ample opportunity and he just can't get over the above average level enough too make a difference for a team which has aspirations of winning the Superbowl. That's a tough argument to make. Again, his playoff rating is 108.6. If he had enough games to qualify (think that he needs 1 more) he'd be the highest of all-time. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_rating_career_playoffs.htm?mobile=false
1billsfan Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 (edited) I am responding to this older post just because no matter what you say, no matter how logical, rational and or honestly these Trolls will never give up. They would rather tear the board down than act like an adult and agree to disagree. Last week one asked if we could stop the arguing and be friends, Less than 7 days later he's at it again. I am doing my best to ignore their rants. Granted Ignoring them won't stop them but it will improve the circle jerk they seem to enjoy. Suddenly, an eight year veteran NFL QB like Alex Smith can all of a sudden have all these excuses pulled out of you know where as to why his team lost even though his team only scored 3 points in the last 28 minutes of a playoff game. Yet the second year QB Manuel gets no excuses. It's too funny...LOL Edited March 16, 2015 by 1billsfan
GunnerBill Posted March 16, 2015 Posted March 16, 2015 GunnerBill and I seem to be thinking similarly. Here is the list of QB's I think could win a Super Bowl with this team in 2015 in no particular order: Rodgers Brady Wilson Brees Manning (x2) Rivers Roethlisberger Luck Flacco Romo Ryan Stafford Palmer Newton I'd take out Palmer probably but other than that - yep that is what I am thinking. I might even add Kaepernick in because whilst he is wildly inconsistent as a passer he has won his team play-off games with explosive plays... albeit with his legs.
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