motorguy Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 (edited) You're entitled to your opinion. Facts are, we needed another RB last year to back up FredEx and CJ in case of injury. If the Bills analysis was that Bryce Brown was as good a player as they were likely to be able to draft in the 4th round, then it was a decent move to trade a 4th round pick for a RB who has shown the ability to stick in the league for 2 years already. And in fact, FredEx and CJ were injured and Brown was needed to fill in. I love FredEx and I don't believe the Bills should cut him, but from a pure objective standpoint, 32 out of 32 NFL GMs would tell you that cutting a RB who will be 2nd or 3rd string, is past the age where most RBs show a decline. and who counts $2.7M against the cap, is sound NFL business and requires no rhetoric about sacrifice, validation, overreaches, justification, and quests. The reason I think it's a mistake is because FredEx is driven to the likes of a Jerry Rice for conditioning and taking care of himself, has less NFL wear n tear because he got his chance late, and because all our RBs had poor productivity last year but FredEx > Brown in rushing YPA and receiving YPG. But that's just my opinion, and I understand that both moves (trading for Brown and cutting Fredex) make logical sense in the framework of the NFL. Whaley has no need to forcibly justify any move he makes. I have absolutely no idea what "beating the dead horse of his overreaches until we revolt" is supposed to mean - if there are other moves Whaley has made that you dislike, it would seem more rational to just name them. Would those same 32 GMs cut their #1 in receiving yards Sir? I don't mean their #1 receiver, I mean their #1 in receiving yards..................Sammy is ranked 3 spots behind Fred in receiving yards, #1 for the Bills. I think not. Edited March 10, 2015 by motorguy
Punch Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 Would those same 32 GMs cut their #1 in receiving yards Sir? I don't mean their #1 receiver, I mean their #1 in receiving yards..................Sammy is ranked 3 spots behind Fred in receiving yards, #1 for the Bills. I think not. ???
K-9 Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 In that scenario, there won't be an outcry because he would have lost it on its merits. The pushback over the last couple of days is that he would be getting replaced by a guy who couldn't beat him out when he was playing on one leg and a JAG from the Jets who has been pedestrian. Note, that no one squeaked a bit when the Bills brought in McCoy, which stands to greatly diminish Fred's role. Sure, but that's you. I'm talking about the Zubaz and Merrells crowd, not pragmatic thinkers. Hey, if anyone can prolong the ravages of time, it's Fred Jackson. I would never count him out. But it's obvious he's not the same player he once was from an athletic standpoint. Reasonable people understand this. I just have a sinking suspicion that there are a ton of fans who lead with their hearts too often. GO BILLS!!!
GG Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 Sure, but that's you. I'm talking about the Zubaz and Merrells crowd, not pragmatic thinkers. Hey, if anyone can prolong the ravages of time, it's Fred Jackson. I would never count him out. But it's obvious he's not the same player he once was from an athletic standpoint. Reasonable people understand this. I just have a sinking suspicion that there are a ton of fans who lead with their hearts too often. GO BILLS!!! There's a reason some people are still proud to wear Zubaz, and they won't have much of a collective howl if Fred loses a competitive battle in August.
negativo Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 What's gonna happen if Freddy gets cut in camp because he isn't cutting it any more? More petitions? More Zubaz and Merrels attired, plywood sign bearing protesters at the Ralph? Will El Pegaul throw himself in front of the door? Will he fire Whaley and the coaching staff because they had the temerity to cut a player who simply isn't good enough anymore? I honestly don't know if Freddy will be there or not come August. He has lost a step for sure. Maybe two. That's been apparent since the summer of '13. He hasn't lost an ounce of his veteran savvy though. Indeed, he's probably acquired some more. Sooner or later, though, savvy won't compensate for that lost step. Father time is undefeated as they say. 34 is long in the tooth for an RB, even one as "fresh" as Freddy. GO BILLS!!! What if Mario Williams looks a step slower and just can't cut it? Do we cut him? How about Kyle Williams? He's super popular, but what if time and injuries have taken their toll. Does the team have the temerity to waive him? Look, your entire argument about FJ is based on the false pretense that fans wanted him back as a lovable folk hero to be retained out of pure sentiment. That's ignoring the facts. That's creating a false reality in which a bad running back (Bryce Brown) is better than Freddy. Freddy was better than Bryce last year. Much, much better. Bryce Brown was a failure. The only reason he got off the practice squad was due to Freddy AND CJ going down in the same game. Fans want to win. They see a player who is the better being pushed out. A better leader, better receiver, better blocker, better runner, better teammate, better competitor, better performer in the clutch, better influence on others...just better in every way. His age is not relevant to that fact. He was much better than Brown at 33, and there is no reason to believe he wouldn't be better at 34. Those who blindly trust The Doug even when their eyes and reasoning says otherwise, well, a lot of us respectfully do not. Look, GMs have their own agendas, too. Sometimes they are selfish ones. They're human, and are at times even more subjective than fans. In this case, Fred isn't Whaley's guy he's Whaley's inheritance. Meanwhile, Whaley traded for Brown and in the process invested a piece of his reputation in getting it right. Well, he got it wrong. Fortunately, the fans and the owner himself stepped in and corrected the judgment error. Because of this, if Shady needs some rest or misses a game all is not lost. We have a replacement in Freddy who can jump right in and win us games. Could Brown? Not the one we saw last year, and we're too good of a team now to take any chances on a stiff who bombed out in his extended audition last season carrying a critical load next season. Draft pick be damned, the smart move was retaining Freddy.
NoSaint Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 It's hard to argue that brown is that awful unless you have a vested interest in making the alternative to him look good. Brown wasn't great but he's not the worst back ever either
Hapless Bills Fan Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 Would those same 32 GMs cut their #1 in receiving yards Sir? I don't mean their #1 receiver, I mean their #1 in receiving yards..................Sammy is ranked 3 spots behind Fred in receiving yards, #1 for the Bills. I think not. I'm very confused. Sammy Watkins had the most receiving yards for the Bills last year. Woods was #2. Jackson was #3,4 yds ahead of Chandler, which is very creditable to him as a complete player, but the fact that he ranked so high really says as much about the mediocre quality of the Bills passing game and the meh quality of our TE - a lot of check-downs and quick dumps to the RB, who happened to be Freddie most of the time. So do teams cut the guy on their team who is #3 in receiving yards, yes (see Johnson, Stevie); do they cut #2 yes (see Johnson, Andre) #1 can't think of a #1 receiving yards guy who was outright cut, but if you're Bill Belichek you can let him walk in FA after making him a crap offer (see Welker, Wes)
QB Bills Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 What if Mario Williams looks a step slower and just can't cut it? Do we cut him? How about Kyle Williams? He's super popular, but what if time and injuries have taken their toll. Does the team have the temerity to waive him? Look, your entire argument about FJ is based on the false pretense that fans wanted him back as a lovable folk hero to be retained out of pure sentiment. That's ignoring the facts. That's creating a false reality in which a bad running back (Bryce Brown) is better than Freddy. Freddy was better than Bryce last year. Much, much better. Bryce Brown was a failure. The only reason he got off the practice squad was due to Freddy AND CJ going down in the same game. Fans want to win. They see a player who is the better being pushed out. A better leader, better receiver, better blocker, better runner, better teammate, better competitor, better performer in the clutch, better influence on others...just better in every way. His age is not relevant to that fact. He was much better than Brown at 33, and there is no reason to believe he wouldn't be better at 34. Those who blindly trust The Doug even when their eyes and reasoning says otherwise, well, a lot of us respectfully do not. Look, GMs have their own agendas, too. Sometimes they are selfish ones. They're human, and are at times even more subjective than fans. In this case, Fred isn't Whaley's guy he's Whaley's inheritance. Meanwhile, Whaley traded for Brown and in the process invested a piece of his reputation in getting it right. Well, he got it wrong. Fortunately, the fans and the owner himself stepped in and corrected the judgment error. Because of this, if Shady needs some rest or misses a game all is not lost. We have a replacement in Freddy who can jump right in and win us games. Could Brown? Not the one we saw last year, and we're too good of a team now to take any chances on a stiff who bombed out in his extended audition last season carrying a critical load next season. Draft pick be damned, the smart move was retaining Freddy. Excellent post! Couldn't have said it better myself. Bryce Brown holds the ball like it's a dirty diaper. I'd be happy to never see that guy in a bills uniform again.
Kelly the Dog Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 Excellent post! Couldn't have said it better myself. Bryce Brown holds the ball like it's a dirty diaper. I'd be happy to never see that guy in a bills uniform again. He fumbled one time in the last two years. Granted, it was a big one, but he wasn't even carrying it carelessly.
NoSaint Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 Excellent post! Couldn't have said it better myself. Bryce Brown holds the ball like it's a dirty diaper. I'd be happy to never see that guy in a bills uniform again. He did have that 1 fumble the last 2 years (150 touches)
FireChan Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 It's hard to argue that brown is that awful unless you have a vested interest in making the alternative to him look good. Brown wasn't great but he's not the worst back ever either He was a worse RB than Fred in every way in 2014.
ExWNYer Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 He did have that 1 fumble the last 2 years (150 touches) You're missing his point, No Saint. Fred has never fumbled.
K-9 Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 What if Mario Williams looks a step slower and just can't cut it? Do we cut him? How about Kyle Williams? He's super popular, but what if time and injuries have taken their toll. Does the team have the temerity to waive him? Look, your entire argument about FJ is based on the false pretense that fans wanted him back as a lovable folk hero to be retained out of pure sentiment. That's ignoring the facts. That's creating a false reality in which a bad running back (Bryce Brown) is better than Freddy. Freddy was better than Bryce last year. Much, much better. Bryce Brown was a failure. The only reason he got off the practice squad was due to Freddy AND CJ going down in the same game. Fans want to win. They see a player who is the better being pushed out. A better leader, better receiver, better blocker, better runner, better teammate, better competitor, better performer in the clutch, better influence on others...just better in every way. His age is not relevant to that fact. He was much better than Brown at 33, and there is no reason to believe he wouldn't be better at 34. Those who blindly trust The Doug even when their eyes and reasoning says otherwise, well, a lot of us respectfully do not. Look, GMs have their own agendas, too. Sometimes they are selfish ones. They're human, and are at times even more subjective than fans. In this case, Fred isn't Whaley's guy he's Whaley's inheritance. Meanwhile, Whaley traded for Brown and in the process invested a piece of his reputation in getting it right. Well, he got it wrong. Fortunately, the fans and the owner himself stepped in and corrected the judgment error. Because of this, if Shady needs some rest or misses a game all is not lost. We have a replacement in Freddy who can jump right in and win us games. Could Brown? Not the one we saw last year, and we're too good of a team now to take any chances on a stiff who bombed out in his extended audition last season carrying a critical load next season. Draft pick be damned, the smart move was retaining Freddy. Nobody beats father time. Not Mario, not Kyle; nobody. Ever. So yeah, when their production suffers because they can no longer hack it, they too will be let go. It's just the nature of the beast. Fred Jackson will go down as one of the greatest all time in Buffalo sport annals. And I look forward to his Wall of Fame ceremony. I certainly don't need to defend my stance on Fred Jackson to you or anyone else. So I won't. I just refuse to kid myself when it comes to the end of the road. Even for my most favorite players. There have been dozens over the years. I know how it goes. Perhaps you need more time. GO BILLS!!!
NoSaint Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 You're missing his point, No Saint. Fred has never fumbled. I know your joking but for the sake of chatter... In the same stretch Fred is at like 8 in 450 or so touches So only a little over double browns rate?
ExWNYer Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 I know your joking but for the sake of chatter... In the same stretch Fred is at like 8 in 450 or so touches So only a little over double browns rate? Yeah. FWIW, I love what Fred has been to this franchise and would hate to see him go but some of the irrational things being spewed regarding his possible release are just maddening.
Ramblin' Rob Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 Fred Jackson is the best Bills player this millennium. We may have had guys with more talent, but no one has matched his heart. He is my favorite Bills player, maybe ever. He deserves a chance to make this team, but I fully expect him to get cut based on merit. One can only be the the oldest RB in the league for so long. One can only beat the odds so many times before the odds beat you, and has been making the odds his B!/@# for nearly a decade. Smart money is on Fred not being on an active roster week one next season.
Ramblin' Rob Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 Yeah. FWIW, I love what Fred has been to this franchise and would hate to see him go but some of the irrational things being spewed regarding his possible release are just maddening. This. Most of these people were probably the same ones that demonized Ralph for not leaving a succession plan. Reality was far different. Reality is, Fred may have a few carries left in him, but his best is long past, and it was evident last year to anyone that is looking at this impartially. Bilal Powell only ran for 150 on us once, his only game over 100 yards. How many times has Fred rushed for 150? or how many games over 100 in the past two seasons? Get a grip people!!! Please do not force the owner into this fray. let the football people make the decisions, and nobody really wants personnel decisions made by fans!
negativo Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 Frank Gore turns 32 in May. He's had over 1,200 more regular season carries than Freddy plus an additional 342 playoff carries. He's considered to still be an elite back being fought over in free agency. Let's keep perspective, people. Age is a relative number, and Fred has not given any indication he is not capable of being a strong complimentary back to McCoy. Like Kenneth Davis supported Thurman Thomas, you need two quality backs if you want to win big.
Don Beebe Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 Bradley Gelber @BradleyGelber 1h1 hour ago How I imagine the cutting Fred Jackson talks went... #BillsMafia That's how they should go. I like the Pegula's more all the time!
Freddie's Dead Posted March 10, 2015 Posted March 10, 2015 I'm calling my shot. Fred won't get cut in TC or anytime this season. He will suit up for the Bills after proving once again that he is the best back on the team. He won't start over McCoy due to the money, but Brown, Boobie, or Powell will be gone after Fred thoroughly outperforms them in TC and preseason. He'll be the clear #2. All the naysayers will once again be proven wrong. It's just what Fred does. He's far from finished. Someday the naysayers will be right. But since they've been wrong for the last 5 years, I'm going with the winner. I'm going with Fred Jackson.
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