Joe B QB take

[Nanker]

Here we go again. It would only be dumb if EJ went on to be good somewhere else. Let me ask you this (let's not argue OK?): what if, WHAT IF, they bring in, say Jake Locker, and all throughout camp and all throughout preseason Manuel is CLEARLY a distant third. Are you OK cutting him then? Honest question.

Honest question. What if Manuel is CLEARLY the top guy. Are you OK with him being The Bills QB then? Honest question.

 

You might be, but I swear there are a ton of idiots here who would not be. That's just my opinion and you're entitled to it.

[bigK14094]

Put aside your feeling about Marrone for a second.

 

He and Whaley had their choice of any QB in EJ's draft, and they picked EJ. They then made the Watkins trade a year later to help EJ develop. They did basiclaly nothing at QB last offseason, leaving the team's fate entirely in EJ's hands.

 

In short, EJ was their guy. The fact that they brought in ZERO compeition/help at the QB spot last offseason should be even more proof of that.

 

What happened? EJ was absolutely freaking HORRIBLE in OTA's, camp, and pre-season. Whaley and Marrone finally panicked and started sifting through the free agent leftovers for someone to play QB in August.

 

Finally they found Orton, who sighed and said "What the hell...I guess I'll take your money," downed his beer, packed his mouth full of chew, and headed on up to Orchard Park.

This

I disagree that Lewis and Tuel "regressed"

 

Tuel was never any good. His own college coach questioned his ability to play in the NFL. I guess I missed his period of good play.

 

Thad Lewis is a career journeyman/3rd stringer who did ok here for a few games. He was pretty much what you would expect. He is exactly the same guy he's always been.

 

Coaching makes some difference but ultimately you are what you are. Ryan Fitzpatrick has played on seemingly every team in the NFL (yes I am aware that that is not literally true) and he is and always has been pretty much the exact same guy, whether it's Marvin Lewis, Chan Gailey, Mike Munchak, or Bill O'Brien as the HC.

 

When I saw, two years ago, that thad had a much better arm than EJ, I knew EJ can't make it in the league. LACK OF ACCURACY!!! He has a strong arm, just can't hit a target consistently downfield. (season ticket holder, have seen every home game in person) EJ misses bigtime on longer throws 20 yds or more. Yes, he hits a few, but consistently missing by 5 yards or more. This lack of skill is unteachable.....and I am in the camp there will be another signee (hoping Locker) and EJ will be gone.

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

 

When I saw, two years ago, that thad had a much better arm than EJ, I knew EJ can't make it in the league. LACK OF ACCURACY!!! He has a strong arm, just can't hit a target consistently downfield. (season ticket holder, have seen every home game in person) EJ misses bigtime on longer throws 20 yds or more. Yes, he hits a few, but consistently missing by 5 yards or more. This lack of skill is unteachable.....and I am in the camp there will be another signee (hoping Locker) and EJ will be gone.

EJ also had an entire offseason to work on these things (assuming they are teachable); and it was obvious in preseason, games 1-4, that he was worse.

[TPS]

It is interesting how every QB you mentioned regressed. I wonder what the common denominator was?

I've been thinking about this issue for awhile, and I can't help but wonder if it was Hackett's fault? Here's my case:

 

I remember Sammy Watkins saying during OTAs and camp that he had to work on his "steps." The passing offense was based on the WRs taking a number of "steps" consistent with the QBs drop (based on 3, 5 or 7 step drop-backs). I don't recall any discussion of this method in year one, and I am wondering if Hackett tried to come up with a fancy new passing system that was too mechanical? WRs and QBs having to focus on "counting" rather than playing. I can't imagine how long it would take to adjust to this kind of system? And, how does one adjust steps when being jammed at the LOS? The fact that all 3 QBs regressed tells me that it was a new system, which I think contributed to regression by the entire offense.

 

I would certainly give EJ a pass (so to speak) on last year, and am very interested to see how he does this year in Roman's system, which hopefully doesn't rely on steps...

 

Regarding the Oline and Marrone, I recall Marrone brushing off questions he got about moving people around during the preseason, trying to find the best 5 players rather than getting his 5 guys early on so they could develop consistency and timing during the preseason. He didn't think it was an issue. I think that WAS exactly the issue. I think the Oline regressed because of the lack of familiarity with who was next to you.

 

My 2 cents.

[The Frankish Reich]

Joe B. said the same thing on Denver talk radio, on a show hosted by Cecil Lammey, who actually knows what he's talking about. Look, there would be nothing shocking about going into camp with Cassel, Locker (or Hoyer? Moore?) and EJ fighting it out. (Although I'm still tending toward the Leroi "EJ gets cut right away" theory.) If Cassel can't move at all (we know he's a statue, but I'm saying an even more immobile statue than he's been), he could be cut with a guarantee of on a million something. Yes, you'd lose the draft picks (really "pick" since they got one back), but it wouldn't be a major thing as Joe and Lammey pointed out. Joe pretty clearly does have sources in the organization, although I agree with people who say his football knowledge is, well, unimpressive. But Lammey knows the NFL and the draft, and he wasn't at all surprised by the notion that the Bills would bring in someone else to compete too.

[metzelaars_lives]

Honest question. What if Manuel is CLEARLY the top guy. Are you OK with him being The Bills QB then? Honest question.

 

You might be, but I swear there are a ton of idiots here who would not be. That's just my opinion and you're entitled to it.

Of course! I already stated in this thread that if he is neck and neck with anyone I'm ok with the tie going to Manuel. And my opinion is that there is not one person on this website that is rooting against EJ and would not want him to play if he proved to be their best option after a real qb competition. Anyone who actually feels that way is simply not a bills fan. Edited March 5, 2015 by metzelaars_lives

[Maddog69]

Except for the Seattle Seahawks did just that and it worked out okay for them. I think Joe B is right.

This. And, I don't believe they need to evaluate Cassel. In my opinion, he is here to be a solid #2 QB. EJ and whomever they sign will fight it out for the #1 spot.

They only way Cassel starts is injury or if both other QBs really suck.

[BreezeMafia]

I'm not so sure. I think he does have sources within the organization. I just think his football knowledge is that of an average fan maybe less.

 

His analysis of our draft plans in the past tell me he does have some good intel.

 

I agree here. He has sources but below average reporter. He is young and will grow, but below average.

[bisonbrigade]

Why can't you evaluate 3 QB's? If you sign another FA QB you already have plenty of tape on the guy. To be honest the only QB to be evaluated is EJ. The Bills know what they have in Cassel and any other free agent QB.

[billykaykay]

I don't think the Bills are done at QB.

 

I think they will still add another FA or even trade. Worse add a QB in the draft.

 

By pure numbers they have to. Ryan and Whaley were talking about going to camp with 4. I honestly don't see Tuel in the mix. So with Manuel and Cassel, they need to add 2 more.

 

I also don't see the Bills trying to "get by" at the position. They will load up, even if it means cutting a guy in camp.

 

That's just how I see it

If they let Hughes go, they will get a 3rd round comp pick. They will lose that if they sign a free agent QB. Look for them to go QB in the draft if the draft falls their way.

[billykaykay]

Agree on Tuel, disagree on Lewis. He played rather well under the circumstances in 2013 in actual games until he got hurt, threw some great passes, and he was ABYSMAL in 2014. He couldn't complete passes in skeleton drills.

Re: Tuel, it's pretty hard to regress when you only started one game in your NFL career. For an undrafted rookie, that one start wasn't really that bad.

[John from Riverside]

Put aside your feeling about Marrone for a second.

 

He and Whaley had their choice of any QB in EJ's draft, and they picked EJ. They then made the Watkins trade a year later to help EJ develop. They did basiclaly nothing at QB last offseason, leaving the team's fate entirely in EJ's hands.

 

In short, EJ was their guy. The fact that they brought in ZERO compeition/help at the QB spot last offseason should be even more proof of that.

 

What happened? EJ was absolutely freaking HORRIBLE in OTA's, camp, and pre-season. Whaley and Marrone finally panicked and started sifting through the free agent leftovers for someone to play QB in August.

 

Finally they found Orton, who sighed and said "What the hell...I guess I'll take your money," downed his beer, packed his mouth full of chew, and headed on up to Orchard Park.

 

EJ was embarassingly bad. Marrone might be a jerk, but EJ was HIS GUY and he cut the cord that quickly.

 

Rex has no connection to EJ, and Whaley's fate seemingly has little to do with whether EJ pans out at this point. Everyone misses sometimes. If they sign another QB I would not expect to see EJ start a regular season game here again.

You know......when this all started out I was firmly on the EJ train....they guy has every physical trait that you could want in a franchise QB....PHYSICAL traits

 

But then we hear all this talk of EJ working with a QB coach in the offseason......and the bills bring in a QB QB all this talk about working on his footwork and mechancs

 

Then training camp hits and EJ actually having a good day in camp ends up being the exception instead of the rule...it looked like he had taken a step BACK from his rookie season.

 

Now.....could this be coaching? You bet....the problem is we have a defense biult to win NOW......by the time EJ figures it out we might not have the defense in place that we have now.....

 

This team needs a veteran game manager type who wont make the mistake that causes us to lose the game.......we have one of the very best running backs in the league....we have a top 5 defense.....we have Sammy Watkins.....and we have this whole free agency and draft to continue to improve.

[Dr. Who]

No and it won't shock me if he looked the best he has since he's been drafted too.

 

It seems like a lot of Bills fans have been trying to bury the kid since he's been drafted. My biggest thing is that I think Marrone is a joke. He hired Hackett as an OC and WB coach. And it's not just hat. It's the use of Spiller and Watkins. It's the benching of Urbik. It's moving Pears to G. Marrone thought he was a lot smarter than he is. A good head coach doesn't not become a line coach in Jacksonville.

 

I want every offensive player to get a fresh start. For some reason, we love to give up on young Qbs early. It's the hardest job in sports. EJ was better than Sanchez as rookie. EJ is very similar to Locker through their careers. He has basically the same qb rating as Cassel. Now, these are suppose to be his replacements.

 

Obviously, EJ needs to prove it. But if he doesn't, I hope it is a guy like Locker. You are completely limited with Cassel. It's Orton Part 2. And that was as good as Sanchez can look in Philly.

 

Odds are EJ will fail. But how hreat could it be for this team if he turns into Russell Wilson lite?

 

BS. If Marrone was invested in EJ, he would have played him in Ne. Marrone is a loser who couldn't sniff a big time job after "saving" the Bills.

 

Good coaches don't go to Jacksonville to be a line coach.

Correct on all this, I think, though I may be slightly more optimistic about EJ's chances.

Those who are in a hurry to bury EJ annoy me. I'd really like to see EJ do well because it would be good for the team, the city, it would reward a young man of high character and cause chagrin to the many trolls who presumptively wrote him off.

 

Then again, maybe he'll just bust

[respk]

I'm hoping the Bills bring in a FA and a draftee at QB. I don't think it would be a good idea to go into next season with Cassel and EJ competing for the starting job. The rook can go on the practice squad if he can't stay on the roster. Cassel, EJ and the FA can decide which one of them is the backup or gets released. EJ gets a chance but I think it is nearly a foregone conclusion that he is not the starter. Especially with the Bills spending a pick on Cassel.

[JohninMinn.]

Wow. What a dumb thread. Could you grasp for straws anymore? I was listening to the segment when it happened. He said "it wouldn't surprise him" if they still brought in another free agent. He didn't even say he thinks it will happen. And Bulldog agreed with him. Sal, everybody's darling at the moment, disagreed with him. I happen to agree with Joe Buscaglia here. It wouldn't surprise me either. What is with all the vitriol constantly directed toward Buffalo media members? It's ridiculous. I live in Denver and I cannot even begin to tell you how much better Schopp and the Bulldog are than the afternoon drive guys in Denver. The only guys I'm not cool with are Gleason and Sullivan. The WGR guys are just fine. Joe B is good at what he does. So is Jeremy White. And I honestly believe that all you who say otherwise are just jealous that guys like Joe B worked to a point that they get to cover the Buffalo Bills for a living while you are sitting at a desk somewhere doing some mundane job and you're pissed off about what you didn't do with your career.

 

My thoughts exactly. I live in Minneapolis and i dont understand all the hate Buffalo fans spew at the local guys. Sports media here treat the teams like a joke and are way too arrogant.

[dwight in philly]

with cassel being here now, i could handle RGlll.. if they do in fact want him, and can get him.. play him, if he gets hurt.. cassel.. not bad..

[Protocal69]

Wow. What a dumb thread. Could you grasp for straws anymore? I was listening to the segment when it happened. He said "it wouldn't surprise him" if they still brought in another free agent. He didn't even say he thinks it will happen. And Bulldog agreed with him. Sal, everybody's darling at the moment, disagreed with him. I happen to agree with Joe Buscaglia here. It wouldn't surprise me either. What is with all the vitriol constantly directed toward Buffalo media members? It's ridiculous. I live in Denver and I cannot even begin to tell you how much better Schopp and the Bulldog are than the afternoon drive guys in Denver. The only guys I'm not cool with are Gleason and Sullivan. The WGR guys are just fine. Joe B is good at what he does. So is Jeremy White. And I honestly believe that all you who say otherwise are just jealous that guys like Joe B worked to a point that they get to cover the Buffalo Bills for a living while you are sitting at a desk somewhere doing some mundane job and you're pissed off about what you didn't do with your career.

 

 

Who do you listen to in Denver that is worst than Schopp and the Bulldog. I have to hear this for myself to believe that. Please give a Channel, Time Slot and Host Name(s). I'll be waiting

Edited March 5, 2015 by Protocal69

[1billsfan]

Dude I'm really not trying to argue, I swear. I'm just asking you that IF EJ sucks again in camp and the preseason and everyone agrees that he is a distant third behind Cassel and whoever else (there will be a third guy, mark my words- Jeff Tuel is not a real guy), would you be OK cutting him then?

 

I wouldn't cut Manuel this year even if he was a distant third behind Cassel and the new guy. The reason why is because he was drafted as a project QB. That was the plan the Bills organization signed up for. His salary is small so there is no reason to not give him three full seasons of development.

 

I think that many fans here completely ignore the "project" aspect of Manuel. I heard stories that he played awful in training camp, yet he did put in two good performances on the road in Chicago and at home against Miami to open last season in games that actually counted. Then he looked bad in back to back games. This is what a "project" looks like.

 

As for your bringing up over and over wanting him to be cut if he plays badly in training camp. I'm sorry, but I think it would be foolish to do that. Today's QBs don't get near the same amount of practice time that they used to due to the new player union contract. Also, this is a new system for Manuel. So he very well may look bad again this training camp. I say so what. Stick with the plan and give him the full 2015 season in the new system.

 

I'm not saying that I don't want the Bills to draft a QB at #50. Even as a Manuel supporter I'm fine if they do that. But I'm sticking with Manuel for three full seasons regardless of how he looks in training camp. Because that is what a project requires. A three year commitment. My support for him ends this year, but I do have one more year of patience and would keep him on this team.

Edited March 5, 2015 by 1billsfan

[metzelaars_lives]

Who do you listen to in Denver that is worst than Schopp and the Bulldog. I have to hear this for myself to believe that. Please give a Channel, Time Slot and Host Name(s). I'll be waiting

Alfred and D-Mac. Alfred Williams used to play for the Broncos and Darren McKee actually interned for the Bills 20 years ago. They do the black guy/white guy routine. They are on 104.3 The Fan. Alfred Williams is a nice guy but talks out of his ass all the time. Darren McKee is from Boston and is so incredibly obnoxious and he is such a dork. They are unbearable. Yesterday, they were going through the Broncos opponents next year, debating which games are wins and losses. I can tell you that the level of dialogue on Schopp and Bulldog's show is geared toward a smarter listener than the show here in Denver. Every time I listen to them in my truck, I end up yelling "how do you not know that!?!" Example, they'll be talking and one of them will say that Wes Welker won Super Bowls in New England. And then the other one will say, "wait did he?" And then they'll agree that he did and move on. That happened. At least Schopp and the Bulldog will look something up if they're not sure about it. I get how Schopp's condescending tone can sometimes be off putting but overall it's not that bad of a show. I'm telling you, when guys have nothing to talk about except sports for four hours straight and you are in a two sport town, it is not an easy job. So if they sometimes talk about pop culture for a few minutes, that's fine. All the successful ones do that now too.

 

I wouldn't cut Manuel this year even if he was a distant third behind Cassel and the new guy. The reason why is because he was drafted as a project QB. That was the plan the Bills organization signed up for. His salary is small so there is no reason to not give him three full seasons of development.

 

I think that many fans here completely ignore the "project" aspect of Manuel. I heard stories that he played awful in training camp, yet he did put in two good performances on the road in Chicago and at home against Miami to open last season in games that actually counted. Then he looked bad in back to back games. This is what a "project" looks like.

 

As for your bringing up over and over wanting him to be cut if he plays badly in training camp. I'm sorry, but I think it would be foolish to do that. Today's QBs don't get near the same amount of practice time that they used to due to the new player union contract. Also, this is a new system for Manuel. So he very well may look bad again this training camp. I say so what. Stick with the plan and give him the full 2015 season in the new system.

 

I'm not saying that I don't want the Bills to draft a QB at #50. Even as a Manuel supporter I'm fine if they do that. But I'm sticking with Manuel for three full seasons regardless of how he looks in training camp. Because that is what a project requires. A three year commitment. My support for him ends this year, but I do have one more year of patience and would keep him on this team.

I respect everything you said here. Although I never said I want him to be cut if he performs poorly in camp. I'm just preparing people to understand that it is a real possibility. But yeah, if he is abysmal in camp and the preseason again, I can't say that it would be outrageous for them to cut him outright. I would support it. I'm not rooting for it though.

Edited March 5, 2015 by metzelaars_lives

[What a Tuel]

Of course! I already stated in this thread that if he is neck and neck with anyone I'm ok with the tie going to Manuel. And my opinion is that there is not one person on this website that is rooting against EJ and would not want him to play if he proved to be their best option after a real qb competition. Anyone who actually feels that way is simply not a bills fan.

 

I've already seen some posts that say "no way EJ wins in a truly open qb competition" so be prepared for "it was handed to Manuel" if he does end up winning