Joe B QB take

[C.Biscuit97]

Dude I'm really not trying to argue, I swear. I'm just asking you that IF EJ sucks again in camp and the preseason and everyone agrees that he is a distant third behind Cassel and whoever else (there will be a third guy, mark my words- Jeff Tuel is not a real guy), would you be OK cutting him then?

if either Locker or Manuel is close to Cassel for a backup position, I'd get rid of Cassel. Cassel is so whatever.

 

But I will always favor "upside."

[metzelaars_lives]

Put aside your feeling about Marrone for a second.

 

He and Whaley had their choice of any QB in EJ's draft, and they picked EJ. They then made the Watkins trade a year later to help EJ develop. They did basiclaly nothing at QB last offseason, leaving the team's fate entirely in EJ's hands.

 

In short, EJ was their guy. The fact that they brought in ZERO compeition/help at the QB spot last offseason should be even more proof of that.

 

What happened? EJ was absolutely freaking HORRIBLE in OTA's, camp, and pre-season. Whaley and Marrone finally panicked and started sifting through the free agent leftovers for someone to play QB in August.

 

Finally they found Orton, who sighed and said "What the hell...I guess I'll take your money," downed his beer, packed his mouth full of chew, and headed on up to Orchard Park.

 

EJ was embarassingly bad. Marrone might be a jerk, but EJ was HIS GUY and he cut the cord that quickly.

 

Rex has no connection to EJ, and Whaley's fate seemingly has little to do with whether EJ pans out at this point. Everyone misses sometimes. If they sign another QB I would not expect to see EJ start a regular season game here again.

Wow you are actually a smart poster.

[billsfan1959]

Doug Marrone is an offensive line coach in Jacksonville. Orton had the same qbr as EJ's rookie year. Maybe the problem with the offense was bigger than just EJ.

 

But if the Bills cutting EJ for 2 older guys with similar stats would be such a Bills move. Dumb.

Shhhh....you'll ruin the perception of some posters that the QB operates in a vacuum...when he is on the Bills...and his name is EJ Manuel

[metzelaars_lives]

if either Locker or Manuel is close to Cassel for a backup position, I'd get rid of Cassel. Cassel is so whatever.

 

But I will always favor "upside."

That's fair. I would rather have EJ than Cassel if they were neck and neck too. I think EJ wins the job if he is neck and neck with anyone. And I would be cool with that. One more question- would it completely shock you if Manuel came in this year in camp and the preseason and looked every bit as bad as he did last year?

Edited March 5, 2015 by metzelaars_lives

[TheFunPolice]

The offense IS bigger than the QB.

Marrone could be a bad coach.

 

Those two things can still be true in a world where EJ is also totally inept as a QB.

 

How is Marrone to blame for EJ coming to camp and totally blowing it in practice? The guy straight up SUCKED.

 

What about Spiller's comments about EJ being too "buddy buddy" with players?

 

EJ owns his performance. Marrone had EVERY reason to make sure EJ succeeded because he hand picked him, and suddenly he had no use for the player in his 2nd year and turned to Orton.

 

I really think Whaley and Marrone were shocked at just how bad he was (which is why they suddenly started looking at the scrap heap of QBs in August).

[metzelaars_lives]

Shhhh....you'll ruin the perception of some posters that the QB operates in a vacuum...when he is on the Bills...and his name is EJ Manuel

Shhhh...you'll ruin the perception that because Doug Marrone is now an offensive line/assistant head coach for Jacksonville that he affected EJ's accuracy in 7 on 7 drills with no pads and that EJ is necessarily going to look better this year because the new job Doug Marrone took is kind of funny.

[TheFunPolice]

No coach will ever be as invested in EJ's success as Doug Marrone was.

 

Let that one sink in.

 

EJ was Marrone's QB. Marrone benched him and then quit his job.

[billsfan1959]

Shhhh...you'll ruin the perception that because Doug Marrone is now an offensive line/assistant head coach for Jacksonville that he affected EJ's accuracy in 7 on 7 drills with no pads and that EJ is necessarily going to look better this year because the new job Doug Marrone took is kind of funny.

Your crusade undermines your credibility when it comes to EJ...

[C.Biscuit97]

That's fair. I would rather have EJ than Cassel if they were neck and neck too. I think EJ wins the job if he is neck and neck with anyone. And I would be cool with that. One more question- would it completely shock you if Manuel came in this year in camp and the preseason and looked every bit as bad as he did last year?

No and it won't shock me if he looked the best he has since he's been drafted too.

 

It seems like a lot of Bills fans have been trying to bury the kid since he's been drafted. My biggest thing is that I think Marrone is a joke. He hired Hackett as an OC and WB coach. And it's not just hat. It's the use of Spiller and Watkins. It's the benching of Urbik. It's moving Pears to G. Marrone thought he was a lot smarter than he is. A good head coach doesn't not become a line coach in Jacksonville.

 

I want every offensive player to get a fresh start. For some reason, we love to give up on young Qbs early. It's the hardest job in sports. EJ was better than Sanchez as rookie. EJ is very similar to Locker through their careers. He has basically the same qb rating as Cassel. Now, these are suppose to be his replacements.

 

Obviously, EJ needs to prove it. But if he doesn't, I hope it is a guy like Locker. You are completely limited with Cassel. It's Orton Part 2. And that was as good as Sanchez can look in Philly.

 

Odds are EJ will fail. But how hreat could it be for this team if he turns into Russell Wilson lite?

No coach will ever be as invested in EJ's success as Doug Marrone was.

 

Let that one sink in.

 

EJ was Marrone's QB. Marrone benched him and then quit his job.

BS. If Marrone was invested in EJ, he would have played him in Ne. Marrone is a loser who couldn't sniff a big time job after "saving" the Bills.

 

Good coaches don't go to Jacksonville to be a line coach.

[billsfan1959]

No and it won't shock me if he looked the best he has since he's been drafted too.

 

It seems like a lot of Bills fans have been trying to bury the kid since he's been drafted. My biggest thing is that I think Marrone is a joke. He hired Hackett as an OC and WB coach. And it's not just hat. It's the use of Spiller and Watkins. It's the benching of Urbik. It's moving Pears to G. Marrone thought he was a lot smarter than he is. A good head coach doesn't not become a line coach in Jacksonville.

 

I want every offensive player to get a fresh start. For some reason, we love to give up on young Qbs early. It's the hardest job in sports. EJ was better than Sanchez as rookie. EJ is very similar to Locker through their careers. He has basically the same qb rating as Cassel. Now, these are suppose to be his replacements.

 

Obviously, EJ needs to prove it. But if he doesn't, I hope it is a guy like Locker. You are completely limited with Cassel. It's Orton Part 2. And that was as good as Sanchez can look in Philly.

 

Odds are EJ will fail. But how hreat could it be for this team if he turns into Russell Wilson lite?

 

BS. If Marrone was invested in EJ, he would have played him in Ne. Marrone is a loser who couldn't sniff a big time job after "saving" the Bills.

 

Good coaches don't go to Jacksonville to be a line coach.

A very reasonable post

[C.Biscuit97]

Shhhh...you'll ruin the perception that because Doug Marrone is now an offensive line/assistant head coach for Jacksonville that he affected EJ's accuracy in 7 on 7 drills with no pads and that EJ is necessarily going to look better this year because the new job Doug Marrone took is kind of funny.

Explain why a 10th year vet had the same qbr as EJ did his rookie year. Explain why so many offensive players regressed.

[Kelly the Dog]

Put aside your feeling about Marrone for a second.

 

He and Whaley had their choice of any QB in EJ's draft, and they picked EJ. They then made the Watkins trade a year later to help EJ develop. They did basiclaly nothing at QB last offseason, leaving the team's fate entirely in EJ's hands.

 

In short, EJ was their guy. The fact that they brought in ZERO compeition/help at the QB spot last offseason should be even more proof of that.

 

What happened? EJ was absolutely freaking HORRIBLE in OTA's, camp, and pre-season. Whaley and Marrone finally panicked and started sifting through the free agent leftovers for someone to play QB in August.

 

Finally they found Orton, who sighed and said "What the hell...I guess I'll take your money," downed his beer, packed his mouth full of chew, and headed on up to Orchard Park.

 

EJ was embarassingly bad. Marrone might be a jerk, but EJ was HIS GUY and he cut the cord that quickly.

 

Rex has no connection to EJ, and Whaley's fate seemingly has little to do with whether EJ pans out at this point. Everyone misses sometimes. If they sign another QB I would not expect to see EJ start a regular season game here again.

That is one way to look at it. That is not a fact, and not at all how I see what happened.

 

How I see is was Buddy Nix was determined not to leave the team without a franchise QB. He made the EJ pick. Marrone and Whaley went along with it. Perhaps they agreed perhaps they liked another guy.

 

Neither of them thought EJ was ready right away. They described him as raw. They brought in a veteran to play and for EJ to watch. It was a terrible move in retrospect only because Kolb was an injury waiting to happen and didn't disappoint.

 

Then two unforeseen things happened. Whaley traded for a veteran backup in Thad Lewis and Marrone fell in puppy love with Jeff Tuel. Kolb was out for the season. EJ was forced to play. EJ got hurt three times. Lewis was forced to play and played surprisingly well. Then he got hurt. Marrone's love toy got some experience.

 

In the off season, Marrone still had his love toy and Lewis was thought to be able to improve. He was very smart and didn't have training camp. Both Marrone and Whaley decided that rather than bring in a crappy veteran to battle it out and pressure EJ and take reps from him, as there was NO GOOD CHOICE available at all (Vick and McCown were the only ones, neither was any good, and both wanted a good chance or assurance to start), they would bank on Lewis being a decent backup and surrounding EJ with good WR and RBs.

 

Unfortunately, in OTAs it became very apparent that Lewis did not improve, he regressed. Tuel did not improve, he regressed. IMO, it was Whaley who pulled the plug and went after Orton when training camp started. Lewis and Tuel both sucked in camp and preseason. They courted Orton and then signed him to either be a backup or starter if EJ sucked. EJ didn't have a good camp or preseason either. But Orton was better than anyone they could have signed in the offseason and there was no chance he was going to sign with anyone until the reg season started. So they cut Lewis, signed Palmer until they had Orton locked up (I think they knew 90% likelihood they would sign him on eve of season) and then when EJ played so horrible, Marrone pulled the plug.

[metzelaars_lives]

No and it won't shock me if he looked the best he has since he's been drafted too.

 

It seems like a lot of Bills fans have been trying to bury the kid since he's been drafted. My biggest thing is that I think Marrone is a joke. He hired Hackett as an OC and WB coach. And it's not just hat. It's the use of Spiller and Watkins. It's the benching of Urbik. It's moving Pears to G. Marrone thought he was a lot smarter than he is. A good head coach doesn't not become a line coach in Jacksonville.

 

I want every offensive player to get a fresh start. For some reason, we love to give up on young Qbs early. It's the hardest job in sports. EJ was better than Sanchez as rookie. EJ is very similar to Locker through their careers. He has basically the same qb rating as Cassel. Now, these are suppose to be his replacements.

 

Obviously, EJ needs to prove it. But if he doesn't, I hope it is a guy like Locker. You are completely limited with Cassel. It's Orton Part 2. And that was as good as Sanchez can look in Philly.

 

Odds are EJ will fail. But how hreat could it be for this team if he turns into Russell Wilson lite?

 

BS. If Marrone was invested in EJ, he would have played him in Ne. Marrone is a loser who couldn't sniff a big time job after "saving" the Bills.

 

Good coaches don't go to Jacksonville to be a line coach.

I thought Manuel should've played against New England too. Clearly Marrone was obsessed with getting to 9-7 because he knew he was going to quit and he thought the winning record would make him more marketable. I think my biggest issue here is that I haven't been burying Manuel since he was drafted. I loved the pick and I thought for sure he was gonna be our guy after the Carolina game. I just get pissed when people tell me I'm not allowed to take what I saw all last camp, all last preseason, the San Diego and Houston games and formulate the opinion that I think the chances of him succeeding at this point are highly doubtful.

[TheFunPolice]

That is one way to look at it. That is not a fact, and not at all how I see what happened.

 

How I see is was Buddy Nix was determined not to leave the team without a franchise QB. He made the EJ pick. Marrone and Whaley went along with it. Perhaps they agreed perhaps they liked another guy.

 

Neither of them thought EJ was ready right away. They described him as raw. They brought in a veteran to play and for EJ to watch. It was a terrible move in retrospect only because Kolb was an injury waiting to happen and didn't disappoint.

 

Then two unforeseen things happened. Whaley traded for a veteran backup in Thad Lewis and Marrone fell in puppy love with Jeff Tuel. Kolb was out for the season. EJ was forced to play. EJ got hurt three times. Lewis was forced to play and played surprisingly well. Then he got hurt. Marrone's love toy got some experience.

 

In the off season, Marrone still had his love toy and Lewis was thought to be able to improve. He was very smart and didn't have training camp. Both Marrone and Whaley decided that rather than bring in a crappy veteran to battle it out and pressure EJ and take reps from him, as there was NO GOOD CHOICE available at all (Vick and McCown were the only ones, neither was any good, and both wanted a good chance or assurance to start), they would bank on Lewis being a decent backup and surrounding EJ with good WR and RBs.

 

Unfortunately, in OTAs it became very apparent that Lewis did not improve, he regressed. Tuel did not improve, he regressed. IMO, it was Whaley who pulled the plug and went after Orton when training camp started. Lewis and Tuel both sucked in camp and preseason. They courted Orton and then signed him to either be a backup or starter if EJ sucked. EJ didn't have a good camp or preseason either. But Orton was better than anyone they could have signed in the offseason and there was no chance he was going to sign with anyone until the reg season started. So they cut Lewis, signed Palmer until they had Orton locked up (I think they knew 90% likelihood they would sign him on eve of season) and then when EJ played so horrible, Marrone pulled the plug.

 

That makes a lot of sense.

 

Either way, I stand by my major point: NO NFL coach will ever be more invested in EJ than Marrone was.

 

For the current staff, he is someone else's mistake, so he has to be that much better to earn their respect/trust. Given how bad he was last camp I don't like his odds.

 

I DO think we just upgraded our coaching staff in a HUGE way, but there is a reason EJ was the first QB drafted in the 1st round, and it isn't because he was seen as some great prospect. It really wouldn't be all that surprising if he didn't work out.

[metzelaars_lives]

Explain why a 10th year vet had the same qbr as EJ did his rookie year. Explain why so many offensive players regressed.

I was extremely disappointed in Marrone's inability to get better production out of the line- that's what he played, right? I was disappointed in Hackett (though not as much as most- "why didn't he run there? Why didn't he pass there?"- you can only run or pass). I did not like Doug Marrone as a coach and I was glad when he quit. But that doesn't mean I can't also look at EJ Manuel and formulate my own opinions about how he looked. Like the other poster said, Marrone being a bad coach and EJ being a bad QB do not have to be mutually exclusive. You yourself just said that the odds of Manuel succeeding are not great. I'm not really sure we disagree about much to be honest.

[chris heff]

That is one way to look at it. That is not a fact, and not at all how I see what happened.

 

How I see is was Buddy Nix was determined not to leave the team without a franchise QB. He made the EJ pick. Marrone and Whaley went along with it. Perhaps they agreed perhaps they liked another guy.

 

Neither of them thought EJ was ready right away. They described him as raw. They brought in a veteran to play and for EJ to watch. It was a terrible move in retrospect only because Kolb was an injury waiting to happen and didn't disappoint.

 

Then two unforeseen things happened. Whaley traded for a veteran backup in Thad Lewis and Marrone fell in puppy love with Jeff Tuel. Kolb was out for the season. EJ was forced to play. EJ got hurt three times. Lewis was forced to play and played surprisingly well. Then he got hurt. Marrone's love toy got some experience.

 

In the off season, Marrone still had his love toy and Lewis was thought to be able to improve. He was very smart and didn't have training camp. Both Marrone and Whaley decided that rather than bring in a crappy veteran to battle it out and pressure EJ and take reps from him, as there was NO GOOD CHOICE available at all (Vick and McCown were the only ones, neither was any good, and both wanted a good chance or assurance to start), they would bank on Lewis being a decent backup and surrounding EJ with good WR and RBs.

 

Unfortunately, in OTAs it became very apparent that Lewis did not improve, he regressed. Tuel did not improve, he regressed. IMO, it was Whaley who pulled the plug and went after Orton when training camp started. Lewis and Tuel both sucked in camp and preseason. They courted Orton and then signed him to either be a backup or starter if EJ sucked. EJ didn't have a good camp or preseason either. But Orton was better than anyone they could have signed in the offseason and there was no chance he was going to sign with anyone until the reg season started. So they cut Lewis, signed Palmer until they had Orton locked up (I think they knew 90% likelihood they would sign him on eve of season) and then when EJ played so horrible, Marrone pulled the plug.

It is interesting how every QB you mentioned regressed. I wonder what the common denominator was?

[Punch]

It is interesting how every QB you mentioned regressed. I wonder what the common denominator was?

 

Jerry Sullivan

[metzelaars_lives]

It is interesting how every QB you mentioned regressed. I wonder what the common denominator was?

Yeah but no one ever mentions that Thad Lewis and EJ Manuel (at times) both looked decent in 2013 and Doug Marrone and Hackett were the coaches that year too. They did both regress. It's not the first time in the history of the NFL that a QB regressed. And Tuel does not even count in this conversation.

[chris heff]

I'm amazed that anyone thinks they should invest in another veteran QB. How many good QBs are acquired through trades or free agency vs the draft?

Yeah but no one ever mentions that Thad Lewis and EJ Manuel (at times) both looked decent in 2013 and Doug Marrone and Hackett were the coaches that year too. They did both regress. It's not the first time in the history of the NFL that a QB regressed. And Tuel does not even count in this conversation.

 

You forgot Orton, he had the same issues and regressed.

[Kelly the Dog]

Yeah but no one ever mentions that Thad Lewis and EJ Manuel (at times) both looked decent in 2013 and Doug Marrone and Hackett were the coaches that year too. They did both regress. It's not the first time in the history of the NFL that a QB regressed. And Tuel does not even count in this conversation.

Lewis came in and just played. He barely knew the playbook. He was playing on instinct. As was EJ. Tuel doesn't count and doesn't belong in the league. The longer they were exposed to Marrone the worse they played. That is what happened with Orton, too. So it's 3 for 3.