Has Dealer Doug earned benefit of the doubt?

[QB Bills]

You have got to be kidding. Other than the Hughes move, every single one of his moves can be debated. And some were downright idiotic.

 

He was out parading "we are open to every position except QB" weeks before the draft last year. There were sensible people on this board scratching their heads about that. Even if that's how he felt, why publicize it? In any case, after just 4 more games from the guy he had anointed, his tune is now "we are looking to upgrade the QB position". It's just so amateur.

 

He drafted 3 crappy lineman in the last draft. One of whom they were forced to start and proceeded to rate right near the bottom of the entire league. The other two who could barely see the field even though there wasn't much competition.

 

Chris Williams is awful. I know...what a shocker. At least to those who didn't bother to google him and see he has pretty much been awful his whole career.

 

Sammy Watkins...an excellent player, no doubt but not a lot of scouting had to go into determining that. But a bad trade when looking at it from a value perspective. And especially so when you don't have an established QB.

 

Trading a proven receiver who had success with a crappy QB for a 4th because "he doesn't mesh with our new QB". Who is also crappy. The guy who was then benched a quarter into the season.

 

Trading a 4th for a backup RB who barely saw the field. And when he did, he fumbled the season away.

 

And now he trades for a running back with a huge cap number, who has benefited from a greater support system than he will receive here. The same system that had Bryce Brown running for 170 yards in consecutive games. The guy who couldn't crack the starting lineup here. And he trades away a promising young player at a more valuable position, who almost won rookie of the year and who is only one year into his rookie deal. And people are happy about this? They couldn't give him away to at least one team (Arizona), yet we send them Kiko. Unbelievable.

 

How so many people are in love with this guy and trash Nix makes no sense, considering Nix has added more talent to this current roster than Whaley has. He doesn't seem like he has a long-term plan and just seems to be winging it.

Edited March 4, 2015 by QB Bills

[RealityCheck]

 

Then debate me on why I'm wrong. I'll most assuredly listen to your opinion.

It has to do with making massive assumptions, and then making more assumptions based on those assumptions. I am not saying that you are wrong, but your extrapolation of events behind the scenes just seems odd to me considering the realm of likely possibilities. I believe that a range of things could have occurred, while it seemed a little soap opera-esque as to your account of things. Playing the jump to conclusions game isn't my strong suit. It just looks like a decisive personnel move by Whaley to me. JMO.

[hondo in seattle]

I think Whaley sees us on the cusp of playoff contention. Our 9-7 record last year bears that out. So he feels a sense of urgency. He's hungry to make the playoffs this season so he'll work overtime and make bold deals to get us there.

 

I think he's happy with the defensive roster overall. And we did well on special teams last season (I'm guessing DW will resign Easley). But DW knows Rex and Roman need more offensive weapons.

 

Since no franchise QBs are available, DW went out and got us a franchise RB. He knows we're going to need a great running attack to balance what might be a weak passing attack. Toward this end, DW signed Incognito, traded for a RB, and I'm guessing he's going to get another FA OL.

 

I was not a fan of trading up for Sammy but mostly I like what Whaley is doing.

 

(Humbly noting that neither I nor most anyone else here know 1/100th about NFL personnel that DW knows. But as a fan, it's more fun to have an opinion anyway).

Edited March 4, 2015 by hondo in seattle

[Hapless Bills Fan]

You have got to be kidding. Other than the Hughes move, every single one of his moves can be debated. And some were downright idiotic.

 

He was out parading "we are open to every position except QB" weeks before the draft last year. (...) now "we are looking to upgrade the QB position". It's just so amateur.

 

He drafted 3 crappy lineman in the last draft.

 

Chris Williams is awful.

 

Sammy Watkins...an excellent player, no doubt but not a lot of scouting had to go into determining that. But a bad trade when looking at it from a value perspective.

 

Trading a proven receiver who had success with a crappy QB for a 4th because "he doesn't mesh with our new QB". Who is also crappy.

 

Trading a 4th for a backup RB who barely saw the field. And when he did, he fumbled the season away.

 

And now he trades for a running back with a huge cap number,....They couldn't give him away to at least one team (Arizona), yet we send them Kiko. Unbelievable.

 

How so many people are in love with this guy and trash Nix makes no sense, considering Nix has added more talent to this current roster than Whaley has. He doesn't seem like he has a long-term plan and just seems to be winging it.

 

Interesting cherry-picked list. You do realize that the GM is responsible for determining what type of players the coach feels he needs and delivering them? If the coach changes, so does the type of players who fit.

 

In the modern NFL, it's also important to consider cap. SJ was owed $16M or something like that, $4M last year. So he was traded for a 4th and $4M because he excelled as an E-P player and Marrone placed higher value on having high quality WR who could be coached to run crisp WCO routes. That wasn't Stevie's strength.

 

"They couldn't give (McCoy) away to Arizona" really? Really?

 

I think Whaley sees us on the cusp of playoff contention. Our 9-7 record last year bears that out. So he feels a sense of urgency. He's hungry to make the playoffs this season so he'll work overtime and make bold deals to get us there.

 

I think he's happy with the defensive roster overall. And we did well on special teams last season (I'm guessing DW will resign Easley). But DW knows Rex and Roman need more offensive weapons.

 

Since no franchise QBs are available, DW went out and got us a franchise RB. He knows we're going to need a great running attack to balance what might be a weak passing attack. Toward this end, DW signed Incognito, traded for a RB, and I'm guessing he's going to get another FA OL.

 

I was not a fan of trading up for Sammy but mostly I like what Whaley is doing.

 

(Humbly noting that neither I nor most anyone else here know 1/100th about NFL personnel that DW knows. But as a fan, it's more fun to have an opinion anyway).

 

Good analysis, I think. Including the note that I don't think any of us here have 1/100th of NFL personnel knowledge as DW.

 

I see the franchise RB situation the same way. We are planning to mask the shortcomings of whoever wins the QB battle with a strong running game and a stout OL.

Edited March 4, 2015 by Hopeful

[YoloinOhio]

Now a trade for cassell? Dealer Doug can't stop won't stop.

[Maury Ballstein]

Now a trade for cassell? Dealer Doug can't stop won't stop.

Dealer Doug ! He can't be stopped. Wonder if Mario for Skelton is next

[hondo in seattle]

You have got to be kidding. Other than the Hughes move, every single one of his moves can be debated. And some were downright idiotic.

 

He was out parading "we are open to every position except QB" weeks before the draft last year. There were sensible people on this board scratching their heads about that. Even if that's how he felt, why publicize it? In any case, after just 4 more games from the guy he had anointed, his tune is now "we are looking to upgrade the QB position". It's just so amateur.

 

He drafted 3 crappy lineman in the last draft. One of whom they were forced to start and proceeded to rate right near the bottom of the entire league. The other two who could barely see the field even though there wasn't much competition.

 

Chris Williams is awful. I know...what a shocker. At least to those who didn't bother to google him and see he has pretty much been awful his whole career.

 

Sammy Watkins...an excellent player, no doubt but not a lot of scouting had to go into determining that. But a bad trade when looking at it from a value perspective. And especially so when you don't have an established QB.

 

Trading a proven receiver who had success with a crappy QB for a 4th because "he doesn't mesh with our new QB". Who is also crappy. The guy who was then benched a quarter into the season.

 

Trading a 4th for a backup RB who barely saw the field. And when he did, he fumbled the season away.

 

And now he trades for a running back with a huge cap number, who has benefited from a greater support system than he will receive here. The same system that had Bryce Brown running for 170 yards in consecutive games. The guy who couldn't crack the starting lineup here. And he trades away a promising young player at a more valuable position, who almost won rookie of the year and who is only one year into his rookie deal. And people are happy about this? They couldn't give him away to at least one team (Arizona), yet we send them Kiko. Unbelievable.

 

How so many people are in love with this guy and trash Nix makes no sense, considering Nix has added more talent to this current roster than Whaley has. He doesn't seem like he has a long-term plan and just seems to be winging it.

 

 

You made some valid points but to call DW idiotic is hubris, brother. DW is far, far smarter about football than you or I will ever be.

 

Every GM makes both good and bad moves - the good ones makes somewhat fewer bad calls.

 

It seems to me that Whaley - with some of the ground work being laid by Buddy Nix - has built this team into a playoff contender.

 

We'll see. I'll eat my words if we finish 6-10. But I think 10-6 is far more likely.

 

With EJ or Cassel under center, we're not going to field a dynamic passing attack. So DW is doing everything he can to guarantee a good running attack. Dealing a player where we have depth for an elite RB makes loads of sense. Bryce Brown is not LeSean McCoy.

[Captain Hindsight]

Now a trade for cassell? Dealer Doug can't stop won't stop.

I'm expecting to offer his first born for Revis next

[buffalover4life]

We can't forget that we got Kiko by trading back to draft E.J. Doug is the reason our defense has gotten to where it is. I trust his ability to draft defense. Offensive drafting could be better. I fully expect us to go get Iupati now in free agency now.

[BillsVet]

It has to do with making massive assumptions, and then making more assumptions based on those assumptions. I am not saying that you are wrong, but your extrapolation of events behind the scenes just seems odd to me considering the realm of likely possibilities. I believe that a range of things could have occurred, while it seemed a little soap opera-esque as to your account of things. Playing the jump to conclusions game isn't my strong suit. It just looks like a decisive personnel move by Whaley to me. JMO.

 

Here's an example: Last year it was clear the Bills needed an insurance policy for Manuel. After all, the previous year they'd signed an oft-concussed Kevin Kolb knowing full-well they'd draft a QB.

 

But Whaley did not trade for or sign a veteran before or during UFA. Now apparently he's the one doing it?

 

When you compare tendencies with people, things become clear. Buddy Nix drafted players almost universally from the south in three separate drafts. In 2013 though, 2 of the top 3 picks were PAC-12 guys. Did Nix, after years of being a southern guy, suddenly change? Or was it more likely the individual making the decisions had changed?

 

That's my point here. The other scenario is when a big event takes place which prompted people to change their decision making. When RW passed, I think the organization as a whole change because new ownership was on the way and job security was in play. Anyone who's been in management knows that survival is the highest priority when new ownership comes in the door.

 

I don't think Whaley changed this off-season. I think the new HC is driving the change.

[Green Lightning]

I like a lot of what he has done. I admit I'm truly dissappointed in Matt Cassel. Moore, Locker or even Sanchise is better than Cassel. What it means to me is that he's all in on EJ. He's not giving up on his 1st rounder.

[HT02]

Absolutely not

I like a lot of what he has done. I admit I'm truly dissappointed in Matt Cassel. Moore, Locker or even Sanchise is better than Cassel. What it means to me is that he's all in on EJ. He's not giving up on his 1st rounder.

I agree 100%, all of those would have been better choices and were not even waiting to see what happens with Cutler or Manning

[Deranged Rhino]

I like a lot of what he has done. I admit I'm truly dissappointed in Matt Cassel. Moore, Locker or even Sanchise is better than Cassel. What it means to me is that he's all in on EJ. He's not giving up on his 1st rounder.

 

Will you change your mind when they still sign Moore or Locker in a week?

[RealityCheck]

 

Here's an example: Last year it was clear the Bills needed an insurance policy for Manuel. After all, the previous year they'd signed an oft-concussed Kevin Kolb knowing full-well they'd draft a QB.

 

But Whaley did not trade for or sign a veteran before or during UFA. Now apparently he's the one doing it?

 

When you compare tendencies with people, things become clear. Buddy Nix drafted players almost universally from the south in three separate drafts. In 2013 though, 2 of the top 3 picks were PAC-12 guys. Did Nix, after years of being a southern guy, suddenly change? Or was it more likely the individual making the decisions had changed?

 

That's my point here. The other scenario is when a big event takes place which prompted people to change their decision making. When RW passed, I think the organization as a whole change because new ownership was on the way and job security was in play. Anyone who's been in management knows that survival is the highest priority when new ownership comes in the door.

 

I don't think Whaley changed this off-season. I think the new HC is driving the change.

I don't know. If you are looking for a story line that justifies not giving credit to Whaley as GM, I guess it works.

[Jobu]

I find it hilarious that no one gets his name right. Bob Glauber is calling him Gary Whaley:

http://www.newsday.com/sports/columnists/bob-glauber/chip-kelly-s-deals-are-both-gutsy-and-questionable-1.10011238

[YoloinOhio]

I find it hilarious that no one gets his name right. Bob Glauber is calling him Gary Whaley:

http://www.newsday.com/sports/columnists/bob-glauber/chip-kelly-s-deals-are-both-gutsy-and-questionable-1.10011238

That's ok I've heard "Kiki" Alonso about 35 times today

[QB Bills]

 

 

You made some valid points but to call DW idiotic is hubris, brother. DW is far, far smarter about football than you or I will ever be.

 

Every GM makes both good and bad moves - the good ones makes somewhat fewer bad calls.

 

It seems to me that Whaley - with some of the ground work being laid by Buddy Nix - has built this team into a playoff contender.

 

We'll see. I'll eat my words if we finish 6-10. But I think 10-6 is far more likely.

 

With EJ or Cassel under center, we're not going to field a dynamic passing attack. So DW is doing everything he can to guarantee a good running attack. Dealing a player where we have depth for an elite RB makes loads of sense. Bryce Brown is not LeSean McCoy.

I hear you. And I'm not calling the guy an idiot. I've reserved that name for Marrone for the time being. But I'm just not as sold on him as others are here. You trade up for a star receiver with a question mark at quarterback. And the next year, you trade for a star running back because you don't have a QB who can get the ball to said star receiver so you need to go run-heavy. Which they will soon discover they also can't necessarily do as they don't have the athletic o-line that the Eagles do.

 

Meanwhile, everyone keeps talking about all this depth the Bills have at linebacker. They have Bradham and Brown at the moment. And maybe they'll have Harris next week. What else is there? And Kiko is better than all those guys.

 

There just doesn't seem to be an end-game here.

[Deranged Rhino]

I hear you. And I'm not calling the guy an idiot. I've reserved that name for Marrone for the time being. But I'm just not as sold on him as others are here. You trade up for a star receiver with a question mark at quarterback. And the next year, you trade for a star running back because you don't have a QB who can get the ball to said star receiver so you need to go run-heavy. Which they will soon discover they also can't necessarily do as they don't have the athletic o-line that the Eagles do.

 

Meanwhile, everyone keeps talking about all this depth the Bills have at linebacker. They have Bradham and Brown at the moment. And maybe they'll have Harris next week. What else is there? And Kiko is better than all those guys.

 

There just doesn't seem to be an end-game here.

 

The end game is to build the team up to such an extent that a veteran/franchise QB hungry for a ring will choose to come to Buffalo in the next few years in an attempt to win it all. The backup plan is to develop the QBs they have, or will pick, in the coming drafts.

 

The end game is quite clear. The Bills are trying to win NOW. Not next year or two years from now. RIGHT NOW.

[Dorkington]

The fact is, we went 9-7 with arguably crappy coaching and mediocre QB play... if you can't see that Whaley has improved this roster over previous years, then I don't know what to say.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Doug Whaley isn't running this team the way a GM did in years past. This is Rex's team and Whaley is facilitating, not leading personnel acquisition.

 

Kiko Alonso was the first pick during 2010-2013 when Nix was "GM" who was taken that played outside the Southern region. It's why I think he was a Whaley pick.

 

That said, why would Whaley give up on one of his guys less than 2 years after drafting him? IMO, it's because Rex is building the roster and Whaley supports (but does not lead) that vision for the team.

 

I think you're working off a lot of assumptions there.

 

Nix was on his way out that draft. Whaley has an eye for linebacker talent and the "young guns" were allowed to have more of a say in the draft board.

 

Whaley also has 10 years of apprenticeship learning to build a perennial contender in Pittsburgh. When you have a position of strength, you deal players to make other parts of your team stronger. Dealing a young linebacker who has shown something but isn't essential to the team is a classic "Linebacker U" Pittsburgh move.

 

The Bills were a top D with Kiko on reserve/NFI last year, but he played well enough to generate a splash his rookie year (ROY candidate, 3rd in NFL in tackles) making him attractive as a trade candidate. He was especially attractive to his former college coach.

 

You build a team (and a rep as a GM) by making deals that strengthen your team, not getting all "ego" and "emo" about "oh he's my guy, I can't give up on him".

 

Where do you think Roman is in all this, sitting on the sofa eating bon-bons while Rex makes all the decisions he'll have to "ride or die" on? I think Roman, Rex, and Whaley sat down and agreed the team needed a top-tier running back and built a short list of who they wanted both in trade and FA, and a list of acceptable trade bait. Then Whaley took it from there, used his 13 years of contacts, found a deal, and came back to the decision making group (Rex and the Pegulas, maybe Brandon) to get buy-in on the final proposed trade.

Edited March 4, 2015 by Hopeful