Has Dealer Doug earned benefit of the doubt?

[QB Bills]

Going too far again. Fred will outrush mccoy? History and stats be damned! Lololol.

 

Doooomed.

Not outrush. He won't be given the same opportunity as McCoy to do that. But, as he's done in the past, he will outplay this latest hotshot running back if given the chance. As in, he will look more effective and get the yards that someone else wouldn't.

[thewildrabbit]

I didn't even touch on the trade for RB Bryce Brown with a 4th round pick who was a non factor as a RB last season. Remind me again, what round pick did the Seahawks give the Bills for Lynch?

 

Trading away Stevie Johnson because he didn't mesh well with EJ...only to see EJ benched after three games. Kyle Orton could have used a better receiving red zone threat (a guy who always found a way to get open) to help the Bills move out of that 30th ranked worst in the NFL at scoring TD's in the red zone.

 

Paying so much for McCoy when he could have signed Spiller for almost half the cost, and Spiller would have been far more productive playing behind that line McCoy has had the last few years. I can't emphasize enough how important it is to have quality players on the O line.

 

Doug Whaley as GM.... Defense, near brilliant. Offense, not very good.

 

-------

 

Dumping Fred Jackson to save 2 mill per is downright stupid. He is without question the teams best blocker at RB, and that blocking ability surpasses even the teams current TE's. While not as fast as he once was he certainly would be a big factor as a pass catching third down back. Plus the man is a team captain, and a locker room leader. Not to mention a fan favorite.

 

Fredex still has some serious elusiveness in him, and that would have shown last year if the line wasn't as bad as it was.

[ddaryl]

I didn't even touch on the trade for RB Bryce Brown with a 4th round pick who was a non factor as a RB last season. Remind me again, what round pick did the Seahawks give the Bills for Lynch?

 

Trading away Stevie Johnson because he didn't mesh well with EJ...only to see EJ benched after three games. Kyle Orton could have used a better receiving red zone threat (a guy who always found a way to get open) to help the Bills move out of that 30th ranked worst in the NFL at scoring TD's in the red zone.

 

Paying so much for McCoy when he could have signed Spiller for almost half the cost, and Spiller would have been far more productive playing behind that line McCoy has had the last few years. I can't emphasize enough how important it is to have quality players on the O line.

 

Doug Whaley as GM.... Defense, near brilliant. Offense, not very good.

 

-------

 

Dumping Fred Jackson to save 2 mill per is downright stupid. He is without question the teams best blocker at RB, and that blocking ability surpasses even the teams current TE's. While not as fast as he once was he certainly would be a big factor as a pass catching third down back. Plus the man is a team captain, and a locker room leader. Not to mention a fan favorite.

 

Fredex still has some serious elusiveness in him, and that would have shown last year if the line wasn't as bad as it was.

 

 

 

ROTFLMAO

 

thanks for the comedy

 

Steve Johnson is a nobody and Fred is long in the tooth

[thewildrabbit]

All these long posts about whether he's done a good job or not...

 

I come back to the fact that we have gone from perpetual 6-10, to 9-7 with a lineup of crap coaches. To me that speaks for player talent.

 

The worst thing I have to say about him is if he thought Marrone was a good hire.

Ya know what. "I" attribute that 9-7 season to two main factors.

• The first being QB Kyle Orton and him being undefeated against the NFC North division, Bears, Lions, Vikings, Packers. Orton was a godsend by going 7-5 in such a bad offense with such horrid, stupid coaches.
• Then you have the Bills #4 defense in the NFL coached by the man who shut down the leagues MVP in Aaron Rodgers. Jim Schwartz as an ex HC from the NFC North.

Even then the Bills needed the miracles of an NFL kicker missing three FG's in Detroit. Kyle Orton making a last min amazing drive by throwing a TD with one second left on the clock against the Vikings. A Rodgers dropped pass to a wide open GB WR for a certain TD if he holds onto the ball. OT win against the Bears with a 38 yard run by Fredex, and a kick by Carpenter.

 

Last years offense under Whaley was again very bad in being 18th passing, 25th rushing . #26th in three downs and out percentage. 26th in 3rd down conversion efficiency. 30th in red zone TD scoring. 24th in yards per first down attempt. How do you go from the #2 team in the NFL in rushing in 2013 to 25th in 2014 with the same RB's, and only one player change on the line?

 

If Whaley gets credit for the #4 ranked defense he also gets credit for that crappy offense.

[Rob's House]

I didn't even touch on the trade for RB Bryce Brown with a 4th round pick who was a non factor as a RB last season. Remind me again, what round pick did the Seahawks give the Bills for Lynch?

 

Trading away Stevie Johnson because he didn't mesh well with EJ...only to see EJ benched after three games. Kyle Orton could have used a better receiving red zone threat (a guy who always found a way to get open) to help the Bills move out of that 30th ranked worst in the NFL at scoring TD's in the red zone.

 

Paying so much for McCoy when he could have signed Spiller for almost half the cost, and Spiller would have been far more productive playing behind that line McCoy has had the last few years. I can't emphasize enough how important it is to have quality players on the O line.

 

Doug Whaley as GM.... Defense, near brilliant. Offense, not very good.

 

-------

 

Dumping Fred Jackson to save 2 mill per is downright stupid. He is without question the teams best blocker at RB, and that blocking ability surpasses even the teams current TE's. While not as fast as he once was he certainly would be a big factor as a pass catching third down back. Plus the man is a team captain, and a locker room leader. Not to mention a fan favorite.

 

Fredex still has some serious elusiveness in him, and that would have shown last year if the line wasn't as bad as it was.

You're on fire today. It's hard to argue with this.

[ddaryl]

You're on fire today. It's hard to argue with this.

 

actually its real easy to argue that.. No reason to keep an aging Fred on this team. the ship has sailed were moving on

 

Spiller is a glass jaw, and Fred has had trouble staying healthy and has definitely slowed a few steps

[Rob's House]

 

actually its real easy to argue that.. No reason to keep an aging Fred on this team. the ship has sailed were moving on

 

Spiller is a glass jaw, and Fred has had trouble staying healthy and has definitely slowed a few steps

Kind of a tangential argument that barely grazes the surface of his overall argument, but it's also hard to argue with hard hitting factual analysis like "that ship has sailed," so you can have a cookie too. Edited March 9, 2015 by Rob's House

[Buftex]

I think Steve Johnson was traded, more because he didn't mesh with Doug Marrone, than because he didn't mesh with EJ.

 

Funny though, the critics are saying "great on defense" "horrible on offense". Now, he is basically, remaking the offense, and people are upset. I love Fred Jackson as much as anyone, but if you want players like McCoy, or to re-sign young, star players like Hughes, you have to make moves like this...

Edited March 9, 2015 by Buftex

[Rob's House]

I think Steve Johnson was traded, more because he didn't mesh with Doug Marrone, than because he didn't mesh with EJ.

Doug Marrone treats objects like players, man.

[8-8 Forever?]

I didn't even touch on the trade for RB Bryce Brown with a 4th round pick who was a non factor as a RB last season. Remind me again, what round pick did the Seahawks give the Bills for Lynch?

 

Trading away Stevie Johnson because he didn't mesh well with EJ...only to see EJ benched after three games. Kyle Orton could have used a better receiving red zone threat (a guy who always found a way to get open) to help the Bills move out of that 30th ranked worst in the NFL at scoring TD's in the red zone.

 

Paying so much for McCoy when he could have signed Spiller for almost half the cost, and Spiller would have been far more productive playing behind that line McCoy has had the last few years. I can't emphasize enough how important it is to have quality players on the O line.

 

Doug Whaley as GM.... Defense, near brilliant. Offense, not very good.

 

-------

 

Dumping Fred Jackson to save 2 mill per is downright stupid. He is without question the teams best blocker at RB, and that blocking ability surpasses even the teams current TE's. While not as fast as he once was he certainly would be a big factor as a pass catching third down back. Plus the man is a team captain, and a locker room leader. Not to mention a fan favorite.

 

Fredex still has some serious elusiveness in him, and that would have shown last year if the line wasn't as bad as it was.

Love 'im, but Fred represents the past, the Jauron/Gailey/Marrone dark time. Time to move on it would appear. Life goes on.

[QB Bills]

Doug Marrone treats objects like players, man.

Stay out of Malibu

[ddaryl]

Kind of a tangential argument that barely grazes the surface of his overall argument, but it's also hard to argue with hard hitting factual analysis like "that ship has sailed," so you can have a cookie too.

 

 

??? no different then the ridiculousness of people arguing cutting Fred or trading for McCoy was a bad move.

 

 

fact is and everyone can see it. Fred is slowing down and has been injured more so the last few years

[QB Bills]

 

 

??? no different then the ridiculousness of people arguing cutting Fred or trading for McCoy was a bad move.

 

 

fact is and everyone can see it. Fred is slowing down and has been injured more so the last few years

Would it matter if he was 24 instead of 34? I'm pretty sure you aren't even aware that he has less career carries than McCoy.

 

Look beyond his age. Look beyond the fact he's never actually been a burner. Look at what he was able to do with that awful line and with Marrone as a coach compared to the other running backs on the team.

 

The guy has been underrated his whole career from a national standpoint. It shouldn't be that way in Buffalo where I'm guessing people actually watch the games.

[PromoTheRobot]

Ya know what. "I" attribute that 9-7 season to two main factors.

• The first being QB Kyle Orton and him being undefeated against the NFC North division, Bears, Lions, Vikings, Packers. Orton was a godsend by going 7-5 in such a bad offense with such horrid, stupid coaches.
• Then you have the Bills #4 defense in the NFL coached by the man who shut down the leagues MVP in Aaron Rodgers. Jim Schwartz as an ex HC from the NFC North.

Even then the Bills needed the miracles of an NFL kicker missing three FG's in Detroit. Kyle Orton making a last min amazing drive by throwing a TD with one second left on the clock against the Vikings. A Rodgers dropped pass to a wide open GB WR for a certain TD if he holds onto the ball. OT win against the Bears with a 38 yard run by Fredex, and a kick by Carpenter.

 

Last years offense under Whaley was again very bad in being 18th passing, 25th rushing . #26th in three downs and out percentage. 26th in 3rd down conversion efficiency. 30th in red zone TD scoring. 24th in yards per first down attempt. How do you go from the #2 team in the NFL in rushing in 2013 to 25th in 2014 with the same RB's, and only one player change on the line?

 

If Whaley gets credit for the #4 ranked defense he also gets credit for that crappy offense.

Ever consider changing your name to "LoveThe Losing?"

[Buftex]

Would it matter if he was 24 instead of 34? I'm pretty sure you aren't even aware that he has less career carries than McCoy.

 

Look beyond his age. Look beyond the fact he's never actually been a burner. Look at what he was able to do with that awful line and with Marrone as a coach compared to the other running backs on the team.

 

The guy has been underrated his whole career from a national standpoint. It shouldn't be that way in Buffalo where I'm guessing people actually watch the games.

Just in part, to wrap my head around getting rid of Fred, you have to think that Rex Ryan has seen plenty of Fred Jackson over the years, and is well aware of his strengths. It may just be a case of really wanting Powell (he is a pretty decent back, and a good guy like Fred), and it just so happens he is a free agent. The Bills can save some cap money, and get a younger player at the same time..a younger player who the new head coach just happens to really value. Not so sure the Bills were necessarily looking to get rid of Fred, as much as taking advantage of an opportunity that has fallen to them...and one that might have some longer positive value for them...

[Dorkington]

Ya know what. "I" attribute that 9-7 season to two main factors.

• The first being QB Kyle Orton and him being undefeated against the NFC North division, Bears, Lions, Vikings, Packers. Orton was a godsend by going 7-5 in such a bad offense with such horrid, stupid coaches.
• Then you have the Bills #4 defense in the NFL coached by the man who shut down the leagues MVP in Aaron Rodgers. Jim Schwartz as an ex HC from the NFC North.

Even then the Bills needed the miracles of an NFL kicker missing three FG's in Detroit. Kyle Orton making a last min amazing drive by throwing a TD with one second left on the clock against the Vikings. A Rodgers dropped pass to a wide open GB WR for a certain TD if he holds onto the ball. OT win against the Bears with a 38 yard run by Fredex, and a kick by Carpenter.

 

Last years offense under Whaley was again very bad in being 18th passing, 25th rushing . #26th in three downs and out percentage. 26th in 3rd down conversion efficiency. 30th in red zone TD scoring. 24th in yards per first down attempt. How do you go from the #2 team in the NFL in rushing in 2013 to 25th in 2014 with the same RB's, and only one player change on the line?

 

If Whaley gets credit for the #4 ranked defense he also gets credit for that crappy offense.

 

Sure, but I'll take a great defense and a crap offense, that gets us to 9-7, over a bad defense and a mediocre offense that gets us to 6-10.

 

Also, not sure what Orton did to win the Bears game.

[thewildrabbit]

Ever consider changing your name to "LoveThe Losing?"

Actually promo its you that seems to be happy with all the losing and never wants changes. I see things on how they are, and not what I wish them to be. Its difficult for me to be optimistic when I see so many idiotic mistakes year after year before the season even starts. Things would be different if it were all about injuries or just bad luck.

 

The main reason I even post in this forum is because I hate all the losing, and am just trying to shine some light on all the stupidity that transpires from people in the org making millions of dollars while failing at their jobs. My avatar / name / moniker is not directed at the fans in any way. Its directed at the lame coaching mistakes, hires, and decisions from the team / FO that have plagued this franchise for many seasons.

 

Over the years I have pointed out the mistakes that Jauron made, that Gailey made, that Marrone made, and even now the mistakes Whaley is making. I realize Whaley is new in his job, and learning as he goes. I haven't said anything about firing the man, EVER! What I am advocating is giving the team some added football knowledge in the form of a team president. This will help take Russ Brandon, and Terry Pegula out of the football decision making.

 

 

I think a big problem with the team recently was Doug's listening to that old goober Buddy Nix, and his lame philosophy on how to not to build the offensive line. Nix's philosophy= You can always move an OT inside to OG. (how did that work with Pears?) Size matters, and bigger is always better. (How did that work with 6'7'' 326lb OG Colin Brown?) Quality OG's are a dime a dozen, and can be found in the later rounds 4th thru 7th. Never spend a first round pick on an O linemen. How did all this work out for Mr. Show me the Baby! Seems to me it has screwed the Bills the last four years.

 

-------

 

To the fans that think Freddy is done, think again.

Source: #Bills will keep Fred Jackson. Told releasing him was not option. Contract re-structure was/is @wgrz

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Probably a poor choice of words on my part in stating "it was all him". I came away from that draft thinking this was Whaleys choice for QB. Technically the team likes to state it was always a consensus pick, and they have been saying that since Marv was GM.

 

Doug stated he personally scouted EJ, set up the 2013 draft process and board, and basically states in this video that if EJ is not the starter in three years then he will be looking for a new job. (watch the vid)

 

http://www.buffalorumblings.com/2013/5/13/4328100/doug-whaley-ej-manuel-buddy-nix-buffalo-bills

 

Anyway, I'm not campaigning for firing Doug Whaley. What I am attempting to do is remove the rose colored glasses from some fans who think Whaley has done a brilliant overall job, when in my opinion he clearly hasn't on offense. What I'm also attempting to point out is Whaley needs some serious help with the offensive acquisitions other then the current scouts. An experienced football man as team president is what I've been hoping the Bills to hire. If you want to be one of those eternally optimistic fans who sees nothing wrong with Whaley's offensive choices, then fine, as I'll leave you to your opinion.

 

Hi Fear, thanks for the link, good viewing. It was interesting to see how high the Bills were on EJ after the draft and how far they've backed away after the last 2 years.

 

I don't doubt that Whaley had a lot of influence on the EJ pick, but I do think it was an organizational pick. The HC always rightfully has a lot of input and I'm sure Nix and Brandon still weighed in. I think the biggest factor was the overall timing of the decision to draft a QB - the Bills chose to cast out their line into a relatively poor QB pool, rather than a previous year. I do believe that was Gailey and Nix's call (Fitz was Gailey's "ride or die"). I also think Whaley's comment about looking for a job in 3 years was overall recognition of the fact that coaches and GMs tend to lose their jobs when the team loses, and teams without a QB tend to lose, more than a claiming of the pick as all his.

 

I don't know as I'd say I see nothing wrong with Whaley's offensive choices, but your list is negatively selective. For example, you ignore the upgrade to our WR corp - Woods and Watkins. You ignore the fact that SJ to 49ers was likely influenced by both salary cap, roster competition from upgraded WR, and poor fit between SJ's extemporaneous route running and the crisp WCO Marrone/Hackett wanted to install to state it had to do with EJ and thus was stupid once EJ was benched - baloney! Reportedly Whaley also had a lot to do with the 2012 draft board which brought Glenn. I think the Bryce Brown trade ranks as TBD since all of our running backs had poor years due to poor OL play. There were a number of minor FA guys brought in who look good - MarQueis Gray may be a find, and when Dixon played RB he looked pretty good in addition to the strong ST presence.

 

IMO the biggest gap so far in Whaley's tenure has been the expenditure of a FA guard and 3 draft choices on the OL, with the result of the poorest OL since the "anyone play LT?" year under Jauron. All I can say is we'll see this year by who is brought in and by how last year's signings play. 4 of the same 5 guys certainly produced much better OL play under Gailey's staff. But it's a serious gap, no question. I just don't see the need to ignore real upgrades or misrepresent the reasons behind some moves to try to argue your case, and that does seem to be the end result of your previous post.

 

I have two concerns about an "experienced football guy" to oversee (and presumably overrule) Whaley. First, like franchise QB, really good football guys with great track records tend to have jobs and be cherished by the teams they are running. And like FA QB, the ones who are available tend to be either out of the game for years (and potentially out of touch and perhaps no longer full of the fire it takes to work long hours) or retreads who never quite brought a team to success. If we could add a really talented, perceptive "Football Czar" who would make the best use of the talents of people under him, such as Whaley, I'd be all for it - but that's a big if. Reportedly, Polian wanted to boot Whaley and bring in retread not-quite-quite AJ Smith as GM. No thanks.

Edited March 10, 2015 by Hopeful

[thewildrabbit]

 

Hi Fear, thanks for the link, good viewing. It was interesting to see how high the Bills were on EJ after the draft and how far they've backed away after the last 2 years.

 

I don't doubt that Whaley had a lot of influence on the EJ pick, but I do think it was an organizational pick. The HC always rightfully has a lot of input and I'm sure Nix and Brandon still weighed in. I think the biggest factor was the overall timing of the decision to draft a QB - the Bills chose to cast out their line into a relatively poor QB pool, rather than a previous year. I do believe that was Gailey and Nix's call (Fitz was Gailey's "ride or die"). I also think Whaley's comment about looking for a job in 3 years was overall recognition of the fact that coaches and GMs tend to lose their jobs when the team loses, and teams without a QB tend to lose, more than a claiming of the pick as all his.

 

I don't know as I'd say I see nothing wrong with Whaley's offensive choices, but your list is negatively selective. For example, you ignore the upgrade to our WR corp - Woods and Watkins. You ignore the fact that SJ to 49ers was likely influenced by both salary cap, roster competition from upgraded WR, and poor fit between SJ's extemporaneous route running and the crisp WCO Marrone/Hackett wanted to install to state it had to do with EJ and thus was stupid once EJ was benched - baloney! Reportedly Whaley also had a lot to do with the 2012 draft board which brought Glenn. I think the Bryce Brown trade ranks as TBD since all of our running backs had poor years due to poor OL play. There were a number of minor FA guys brought in who look good - MarQueis Gray may be a find, and when Dixon played RB he looked pretty good in addition to the strong ST presence.

 

IMO the biggest gap so far in Whaley's tenure has been the expenditure of a FA guard and 3 draft choices on the OL, with the result of the poorest OL since the "anyone play LT?" year under Jauron. All I can say is we'll see this year by who is brought in and by how last year's signings play. 4 of the same 5 guys certainly produced much better OL play under Gailey's staff. But it's a serious gap, no question. I just don't see the need to ignore real upgrades or misrepresent the reasons behind some moves to try to argue your case, and that does seem to be the end result of your previous post.

 

I have two concerns about an "experienced football guy" to oversee (and presumably overrule) Whaley. First, like franchise QB, really good football guys with great track records tend to have jobs and be cherished by the teams they are running. And like FA QB, the ones who are available tend to be either out of the game for years (and potentially out of touch and perhaps no longer full of the fire it takes to work long hours) or retreads who never quite brought a team to success. If we could add a really talented, perceptive "Football Czar" who would make the best use of the talents of people under him, such as Whaley, I'd be all for it - but that's a big if. Reportedly, Polian wanted to boot Whaley and bring in retread not-quite-quite AJ Smith as GM. No thanks.

You are very welcome.*

 

Some of the known insiders (Kelly, Kirby) stated the primary reason Stevie was traded away was because he didn't run crisp routes, and was always freelancing to get open. The FO believed this was causing problems with EJ. I tend to believe most of what they post, so Its not baloney in my view.

 

I also forgot to mention the bad trade for WR Mike Williams who was inactive most of the season, and then released. Another offensive miss step.

 

Looking over the recent history of the drafts under Buddy Nix, and Doug Whaley on the offensive side of the ball.

• (2010) 5 offensive players drafted, one starter in CJ Spiller, ST player Marcus Easley. The team needed OT's, and not a RB when they already had Marshawn.
• (2011) 2 offensive players drafted none on roster.
• (2012) 5 offensive players drafted, one starter in Cordy Glenn. a trade up in the third for TJ Graham who was a bust.
• (2013) 5 offensive players drafted, one starter in Robert Woods. EJ drafted with a first round pick, and there is now talk of cutting him. 3rd rounder for Marquise Goodwin a total non factor (bust?)
• (2014) 4 offensive players drafted, two starters, one solid WR that required 3 draft picks to obtain, two firsts, and a fourth. the 2nd round OT looks like a bust, and the 7th round OT managed to start but played poorly.

Nineteen offensive players drafted since 2010, and the result was five starters. Spiller will be going elsewhere so that's four, and the Bills should replace Henderson at RT this off season so that leaves three starters. This record looks abysmal to me in finding quality offensive talent. Another reason I think Whaley needs some help with the offensive side of things.

 

I'm not ignoring the Woods, Watkins picks. Its just when I see the Packers draft a guy in the second round its Greg Jennings, Jordy Nelson, Randall Cobb. The Packers didn't need to spend two first rounders on a WR, or 100 million on a pass rusher, as they find them in the draft like Clay Matthews.

 

Let me say again that in order to find a WR playmaker the Bills FO / Whaley needed to trade up to obtain Sammy Watkins, and expend three draft picks, two firsts. Nobody in the scouting dept / FO/ GM saw the potential in Odell Beckham Jr, the potential in Kelvin Benjamin, the potential in Mike Evans? Mike Evans would have given them the needed play maker, and finally found that big red zone target they have been looking for for years. Even now the team is taking about finding a big target at WR. Plus the kid is a phenomenal blocker.

 

This Franchise needs some serious help in evaluating offensive talent in my view, even if its just an offensive specialist in the scouting dept.

 

 

In some of my posts since Polian turned down the job with Buffalo I've been advocating the Bills in hiring a current NFL GM and promoting him to team president. A Man like Green Bay Packers current GM Ted Thompson comes to mind. Most particularly because the man had the foresight to recognize the talent in Aaron Rodgers as an elite QB before he even played a down in the NFL.

 

http://www.packers.com/team/staff/ted-thompson/7d1caee3-e8f2-4e20-b304-98064f608dbb

 

 

I just want to see this team win a super bowl before the decade ends.

 

 

* edit

Edited March 10, 2015 by FeartheLosing

[GG]

But aren't you also using selective stats to prove your point?

 

It's undeniable that Whaley has more misses than hits on the offensive side, but Watkins did not cost 3 draft picks. Green Bay lucking out with Rodgers will cure a lot of ills on offense. Why do you think Cobb took less money in FA?

 

Whaley may still have a bright future, but it's easy to see why Pegula was/is looking for a football czar.