Bills to trade Kiko Alonso for LeSean McCoy

[JohnC]

i dont think they overspent - i think they had a dollar in, dollar out spending cycle at the position so you cant characterize it as saved money to acquire a running back. if we cut fred and then signed someone else, then signed powell at a similar price to fred, you would not characterize it as the bills saving money to get the other player and then also getting a replacement running back... wise spending or not, it seemed like spending your savings twice in the narrative.

I don't want to belabor the point but the Demarco pickup was an unexpected pickup, at least that is what I read and heard from a number of reports. As I stated in the prior post it was Murray and his reps that got in touch with the Eagles, not the other way around. Again, Kelly didn't expect to use available money for another RB, but the talent was too enticing not to explore and bring into the fold. They were in position to sieze an unexpected opportunity, and they did so.

 

Sproles, Mathews and Murray make up a very deep and varied running back corps. If you factor in that their OL is near the top of the league in run blocking then it is probable that they will continue to get a lot of pruduction from the backfield despite the loss of a an excellent back in McCoy. That is the bottom line.

 

Unless the Bills do additional work in upgrading their OL they will get a lot less production out of McCoy (elite talent) than the Eagles got out of him. Watkins is a very dynamic receiver. His talents were very much underutilized because the caliber of qb play was less than mediocre. I'm hoping that that type of scenario doesn't repeat itself for McCoy this season because of a lack of supporting cast (OL).

Edited March 13, 2015 by JohnC

[eball]

I don't want to belabor the point but the Demarco pickup was an unexpected pickup, at least that is what I read and heard from a number of reports. As I stated in the prior post it was Murray and his reps that got in touch with the Eagles, not the other way around. Again, Kelly didn't expect to use available money for another RB, but the talent was too enticing not to explore and bring into the fold. They were in position to sieze an unexpected opportunity, and they did so.

 

Sproles, Mathews and Murray make up a very deep and varied running back corps. If you factor in that their OL is near the top of the league in run blocking then it is probable that they will continue to get a lot of pruduction from the backfield despite the loss of a an excellent back in McCoy. That is the bottom line.

 

Unless the Bills do additional work in upgrading their OL they will get a lot less production out of McCoy (elite talent) than the Eagles got out of him. Watkins is a very dynamic receiver. His talents were very much underutilized because the caliber of qb play was less than mediocre. I'm hoping that that type of scenario doesn't repeat itself for McCoy this season because of a lack of supporting cast (OL).

 

JohnC you are clearly an intelligent guy and your comments are never of the knee-jerk variety...unfortunately, you also seem to believe that Marrone was a good head coach and at least an adequate offensive strategist. You blame the OL and the QB without consideration for the fact that both units were very poorly coached.

 

As for Chip Kelly and the Eagles, Kelly has essentially proven himself a liar with the way they have spent $$ at the RB position. He clearly didn't like McCoy and that's why they dealt him. Kelly knew he could pick up one or two top level RBs at some point.

[JohnC]

 

JohnC you are clearly an intelligent guy and your comments are never of the knee-jerk variety...unfortunately, you also seem to believe that Marrone was a good head coach and at least an adequate offensive strategist. You blame the OL and the QB without consideration for the fact that both units were very poorly coached.

 

As for Chip Kelly and the Eagles, Kelly has essentially proven himself a liar with the way they have spent $$ at the RB position. He clearly didn't like McCoy and that's why they dealt him. Kelly knew he could pick up one or two top level RBs at some point.

eball, Without any equivocation I say with confidence that our OL last year was either the worst or near the worst in the league last year. I will aslo say without any equivocation that Orton was the worst or near the worst starting qb in the league. Those staffing deficiencies had little to do with the unlikeable HC that you continue to rebuke even while he is gone from the organization.

 

The departed HC that you revile got an 8-8 caliber of team (9-7 record) to play to its talent level. What more do you want? Is Doug Marrone an elite HC. Absolutely not. He is certainly not an innovative coach but he is a legitimate HC who during his stint had his team moving in the right directiion. Compare that to the loud talking HC from Jersey whose team over the past three years was on a downward trajectory and whose record against DM was not very sterling. You don't have to be reminded that Rex was fired by the Jets and DM was not. He left under his own volution.

 

I don't know what the source of your animus is towards DM. He made a decison based on his own interest and was permissable within the terms of his contract. The former HC and the GM had different visions on how to build a roster. Because of that he did what he felt was right for him and his family. In the end not only did he do what was right for himself but he did what was right for the organization. What is wrong with that?

 

Success in this league is about talent. Being a more personable and appealing character doesn't trump talent.

 

eball, look forward and don't let the past weigh you down. It is better to gain satisfaction from one's own successes rather than delight in the tribulations of others who have departed the scene.

Edited March 13, 2015 by JohnC

[Deranged Rhino]

eball, Without any equivocation I say with confidence that our OL last year was either the worst or near the worst in the league last year. I will aslo say without any equivocation that Orton was the worst or near the worst starting qb in the league. Those staffing deficiencies had little to do with the unlikeable HC that you continue to rebuke even while he is gone from the organization.

 

T

 

I had to stop there because of the blatant absurdity of your last sentence. The offense was Doug's design. The offensive line was Doug's baby. The offensive line was built to specifications requested by Doug's scheme (big bruisers employing a zone blocking scheme for some reason). The QB was brought in specifically because Doug wanted an option better than Jordan Palmer in case EJ faltered.

 

To say Orton and the offensive line's performance had nothing to do with the man who designed the schemes and picked the 53 is complete and udder nonsense.

Edited March 13, 2015 by GreggyT

[JohnC]

 

I had to stop there because of the blatant absurdity of your last sentence. The offense was Doug's design. The offensive line was Doug's baby. The offensive line was built to specifications requested by Doug's scheme (big bruisers employing a zone blocking scheme for some reason). The QB was brought in specifically because Doug wanted an option better than Jordan Palmer in case EJ faltered.

 

To say Orton and the offensive line's performance had nothing to do with the man who designed the schemes and picked the 53 is complete and udder nonsense.

It doesn't matter what scheme a HC designs, brilliant or not, if the players implementing the offense are inadequate it will not work. Success in the NFL is mostly about talent level. Marrone on offense, most notably the OL and at qb, was working with significant deficits.

 

Whether the qb option the HC had to draw from was EJ, Palmer, Orton, Thad Lewis or Tuel the talent level at that critical position was the primary reason why the offense was deeply stuck in the mud with no wheels.

 

Doug Marrone preferred linemen who were big and bulky over light and quick players because it fit his blocking scheme better. There is nothing unusual about that preference. But it was Whaley who used three draft picks on o-linemen and brought in a free agent to bolster the line. All three rookies were overwhelmed, including the second round pick who didn't deserve a roster spot. The veteran qb that was brought in, Orton, who didn't even work out in the offseason (and it showed) was atrocious. As bad as he was the coaches believed that he gave the team a better chance to win than their former first round pick. That is a commentary on the talent level, not the coaching philosophy.

 

Success in the NFL is mostly predicated on talent level rather than the likeability of the HC. DM got a very flawed team to play up to, if not a little beyond, its talent level. What is there to complain about?

[Chilly]

It doesn't matter what scheme a HC designs, brilliant or not, if the players implementing the offense are inadequate it will not work. Success in the NFL is mostly about talent level. Marrone on offense, most notably the OL and at qb, was working with significant deficits.

 

Whether the qb option the HC had to draw from was EJ, Palmer, Orton, Thad Lewis or Tuel the talent level at that critical position was the primary reason why the offense was deeply stuck in the mud with no wheels.

 

Doug Marrone preferred linemen who were big and bulky over light and quick players because it fit his blocking scheme better. There is nothing unusual about that preference. But it was Whaley who used three draft picks on o-linemen and brought in a free agent to bolster the line. All three rookies were overwhelmed, including the second round pick who didn't deserve a roster spot. The veteran qb that was brought in, Orton, who didn't even work out in the offseason (and it showed) was atrocious. As bad as he was the coaches believed that he gave the team a better chance to win than their former first round pick. That is a commentary on the talent level, not the coaching philosophy.

 

Success in the NFL is mostly predicated on talent level rather than the likeability of the HC. DM got a very flawed team to play up to, if not a little beyond, its talent level. What is there to complain about?

It's pretty easy to complain when it's been reported that it was Marrone, not Whaley, that wanted Chris Williams and EJ Manuel.

[JohnC]

It's pretty easy to complain when it's been reported that it was Marrone, not Whaley, that wanted Chris Williams and EJ Manuel.

The GM and his scouting department evaluate and rank players and prospects. There is no doubt that a HC has some input. But the selection is made by the GM. It's not fully known if EJ was favored by Nix and/or Whaley. But there is no doubt that Whaley was instrumental on evaluating and ranking the qb prospects in that particular draft year.

 

Could you please provide the link indicating Marrone's role in the selection of Chris Williams and EJ? The bottom line is that the GM, not the HC, has the last say on the selection of players.

Edited March 13, 2015 by JohnC

[Deranged Rhino]

It doesn't matter what scheme a HC designs, brilliant or not, if the players implementing the offense are inadequate it will not work. Success in the NFL is mostly about talent level. Marrone on offense, most notably the OL and at qb, was working with significant deficits.

 

Whether the qb option the HC had to draw from was EJ, Palmer, Orton, Thad Lewis or Tuel the talent level at that critical position was the primary reason why the offense was deeply stuck in the mud with no wheels.

 

Doug Marrone preferred linemen who were big and bulky over light and quick players because it fit his blocking scheme better. There is nothing unusual about that preference. But it was Whaley who used three draft picks on o-linemen and brought in a free agent to bolster the line. All three rookies were overwhelmed, including the second round pick who didn't deserve a roster spot. The veteran qb that was brought in, Orton, who didn't even work out in the offseason (and it showed) was atrocious. As bad as he was the coaches believed that he gave the team a better chance to win than their former first round pick. That is a commentary on the talent level, not the coaching philosophy.

 

Success in the NFL is mostly predicated on talent level rather than the likeability of the HC. DM got a very flawed team to play up to, if not a little beyond, its talent level. What is there to complain about?

 

Coaching in the NFL makes ALL the difference in the world. Every NFL roster is loaded with talent, yes some have more super stars than others but every player in the NFL has incredible talent. They have to, just by nature of making it as far in the sport as they have. The difference between winning and losing teams often times comes down to which coaches get the most from their rosters, either through scheme or development. St. Doug's scheme and development were both poor. This is undeniable. Every QB regressed, even our good young linemen like Glenn showed signs of regression.

 

Proof of the insanity of Doug's scheme is found in the deployment of the 53 man roster. Big and bulky players do not traditionally work well in the type of scheme Doug was running. Which was my point when I noted that it was a bad plan from the beginning. Moving Pears to guard, stapling Ubrik to the bench, those weren't brilliant moves in hindsight or real time. Excuse the man all you want, but the failures of the offense to produce fall squarely on the coach, not Whaley. But again, we clearly have different opinions. If you think this team went 9-7 because of Doug, not in spite of him, then we're never going to agree. If you think coaching doesn't matter in the NFL, then that tells me all I need to know about your argument.

[NoSaint]

I've taken to simply agreeing to disagree with johns take that the offense was so terrible that coaching could have zero effect. Our relationship is better without having to constantly remind him he's wrong.

[GG]

I've taken to simply agreeing to disagree with johns take that the offense was so terrible that coaching could have zero effect. Our relationship is better without having to constantly remind him he's wrong.

 

Sounds like you've been married for a while.

[JohnC]

I've taken to simply agreeing to disagree with johns take that the offense was so terrible that coaching could have zero effect. Our relationship is better without having to constantly remind him he's wrong.

Let's be clear to what I have consistently said all along. The primary reason for the offense's ineptitude and wretched performance had to do with the mediocre staffing of the OL and qb position. I have never stated that our coaching of the offense was of an elite or even a good level. It was adequate at best.

 

Anyone who watched Orton perform and not come away thinking that he stunk was watching different games than I was. What makes the situation so ridiculous and pathetic is that the HC believed that the middling veteran qb who was glaringly out of shape offered the team a better chance to win than our first round selected qb. What is sad but true is that the unpopular HC was right in his assessment.

 

Anyone who watched our OL play and not come away thinking that the play of the OL was wretched was not watching the same games that I watched. It is not unusual that teams have weak units. But when the weakness are at such a dramatically bad level that you can't mitigate your weaknesses then that is a staffing problem that can't be corrected until the staffing changes.

 

Whaley has consistently stated that upgrading our OL is a priority entering this season. He has stressed that point not because our OL was adequate last year but for the obvious reason that it was blatantly inadequate.

 

On the offensive side of the ball Whaley failed the unlikeable HC much more than the HC failed the GM. That is why the GM is putting a lot of effort in upgrading an offense that was very impotent last year. While most people are directing their harsh criticisms of DM for his misuse of players on offense (mostly OL and qb) my take on the situation is very different. The criticisms should be redirected to the person most responsible for assembling the talent on offense. And that is the GM---not the HC!

Edited March 14, 2015 by JohnC

[Chilly]

The GM and his scouting department evaluate and rank players and prospects. There is no doubt that a HC has some input. But the selection is made by the GM. It's not fully known if EJ was favored by Nix and/or Whaley. But there is no doubt that Whaley was instrumental on evaluating and ranking the qb prospects in that particular draft year.

 

Could you please provide the link indicating Marrone's role in the selection of Chris Williams and EJ? The bottom line is that the GM, not the HC, has the last say on the selection of players.

It's totally fair for you to call for a link, but I saw it on Twitter from two different beat reporters back in January. Can't remember who or wording to search.

[atlbillsfan1975]

eball, Without any equivocation I say with confidence that our OL last year was either the worst or near the worst in the league last year. I will aslo say without any equivocation that Orton was the worst or near the worst starting qb in the league. Those staffing deficiencies had little to do with the unlikeable HC that you continue to rebuke even while he is gone from the organization.

 

The departed HC that you revile got an 8-8 caliber of team (9-7 record) to play to its talent level. What more do you want? Is Doug Marrone an elite HC. Absolutely not. He is certainly not an innovative coach but he is a legitimate HC who during his stint had his team moving in the right directiion. Compare that to the loud talking HC from Jersey whose team over the past three years was on a downward trajectory and whose record against DM was not very sterling. You don't have to be reminded that Rex was fired by the Jets and DM was not. He left under his own volution.

 

I don't know what the source of your animus is towards DM. He made a decison based on his own interest and was permissable within the terms of his contract. The former HC and the GM had different visions on how to build a roster. Because of that he did what he felt was right for him and his family. In the end not only did he do what was right for himself but he did what was right for the organization. What is wrong with that?

 

Success in this league is about talent. Being a more personable and appealing character doesn't trump talent.

 

eball, look forward and don't let the past weigh you down. It is better to gain satisfaction from one's own successes rather than delight in the tribulations of others who have departed the scene.

eball is not the only one who thinks Marrone is a bad HC. No other team hired him. In fact no other team hired him as an OC. The only gig Marrone could get was Oline coach at Jax. It will be Marrones slow disappearance into oblivion.

You talk about how bad the Oline was in Buffalo last year, Marrone was that units coach.

People like you crack me up.

 

McCoy will be the best back we have seen in Buffalo since Thurman. Why? Roman and his staff on O will do a better job the Marrone and his staff did.

 

Rex is such a better coach then Marrone, it is not even funny. The D and talent won 9 games. That idiot Marrone lost 7.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

 

I had to stop there because of the blatant absurdity of your last sentence. The offense was Doug's design. The offensive line was Doug's baby. The offensive line was built to specifications requested by Doug's scheme (big bruisers employing a zone blocking scheme for some reason). The QB was brought in specifically because Doug wanted an option better than Jordan Palmer in case EJ faltered.

 

To say Orton , EJ and the offensive line's performance had nothing to do with the man who designed the schemes and picked the 53 is complete and udder nonsense.

fix the last for you

It's pretty easy to complain when it's been reported that it was Marrone, not Whaley, that wanted Chris Williams and EJ Manuel.

as noted by other posters.. some players do not develop until their later second or 3rd year.

 

Whaley brought in a bunch of talent. have some faith

you may also recall a group here wanting Gino Smith over EJ

you may also recall a group here wanting Johnny Futball over EJ

 

you may also recall a group here wanting a QB who retired because he lost his will to play @ 26 over EJ

If coaching has little affect please explain Bill Bilicheat

lets say Marrone wasn't a bad coach, just not good enough for the Buffalo Bills

[JohnC]

eball is not the only one who thinks Marrone is a bad HC. No other team hired him. In fact no other team hired him as an OC. The only gig Marrone could get was Oline coach at Jax. It will be Marrones slow disappearance into oblivion.

You talk about how bad the Oline was in Buffalo last year, Marrone was that units coach.

People like you crack me up.

 

McCoy will be the best back we have seen in Buffalo since Thurman. Why? Roman and his staff on O will do a better job the Marrone and his staff did.

 

Rex is such a better coach then Marrone, it is not even funny. The D and talent won 9 games. That idiot Marrone lost 7.

If DM was such a bad coach then why were the Bills going to retain him? If Rex was such a successful head coach then why was he fired?

 

There is no doubt that Rex is a more personable person and interesting character than the dour Marrone. But let's not allow his more engaging personality cloud his actual record. In the two years that Marrone coached in the league with Rex he demonstrably outperformed him. and head to head beat him more often.

 

Rex is a very good defensive coordinator. But as a HC he is average at best. You may be impressed with his juvenile tattoos, his souped up truck and his bombastic predictions that don't come to fruition but I'm not.

 

If Rex is to do well it is because the team improves its personnel. As demonstrated by his record in Jersey it certainly won't be due to his brilliant coaching.

Edited March 14, 2015 by JohnC

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

let me repeat this John C

 

lets say Marrone wasn't a bad coach, just not good enough for the Buffalo Bills.

 

why were the Bills going to retain him?

Because he had talent enough to overcome mediocre coaching?

 

 

If Rex was such a successful head coach then why was he fired?

the Jets FO is a mess and pas usual the NYETS sucked and they switched gears?

 

the day Rex publicly screams a Whaley I'll going in with you on this

[Chilly]

If DM was such a bad coach then why were the Bills going to retain him? If Rex was such a successful head coach then why was he fired?

 

Why do most good coaches get fired at least once in their careers?

[Deranged Rhino]

If DM was such a bad coach then why were the Bills going to retain him? If Rex was such a successful head coach then why was he fired?

 

There is no doubt that Rex is a more personable person and interesting character than the dour Marrone. But let's not allow his more engaging personality cloud his actual record. In the two years that Marrone coached in the league with Rex he demonstrably outperformed him. and head to head beat him more often.

 

Rex is a very good defensive coordinator. But as a HC he is average at best. You may be impressed with his juvenile tattoos, his souped up truck and his bombastic predictions that don't come to fruition but I'm not.

 

If Rex is to do well it is because the team improves its personnel. As demonstrated by his record in Jersey it certainly won't be due to his brilliant coaching.

 

The Jets had zero NFL caliber CBs last season and their defense still finished in the top ten. If you're going to completely remove personnel blunders by the Jets front office from the equation like you are in this post, it seems disingenuous not to do the same to Doug Marrone who you give a complete pass to on that front.

 

You're dramatically underselling Rex Ryan's coaching abilities and ignoring what was going on behind the scenes in New York his last two years. That's not fair when you're doing the opposite to St.Doug.

Edited March 14, 2015 by GreggyT

[atlbillsfan1975]

If DM was such a bad coach then why were the Bills going to retain him? If Rex was such a successful head coach then why was he fired?

 

There is no doubt that Rex is a more personable person and interesting character than the dour Marrone. But let's not allow his more engaging personality cloud his actual record. In the two years that Marrone coached in the league with Rex he demonstrably outperformed him. and head to head beat him more often.

 

Rex is a very good defensive coordinator. But as a HC he is average at best. You may be impressed with his juvenile tattoos, his souped up truck and his bombastic predictions that don't come to fruition but I'm not.

 

If Rex is to do well it is because the team improves its personnel. As demonstrated by his record in Jersey it certainly won't be due to his brilliant coaching.

None of us really know what the Pegula's wanted to do. I am pretty sure Mr and Mrs Pegula are well versed in the art of negotiations. To say they wanted to keep Marrone and he left is what we been told But i really wonder if Marrone's services were wanted. OR the Pegula's knew how to force Marrone's hand. IE tell the ego maniac you are not getting more control, in fact you are getting less, forfeiture of control over your staff.

 

It will be interesting to watch Doug Marrone's career from here till he retires. Something tells me he will be a name in 15 years from now we will be scratching our heads to recall.

Edited March 14, 2015 by atlbillsfan1975

[Fan in San Diego]

None of us really know what the Pegula's wanted to do. I am pretty sure Mr and Mrs Pegula are well versed in the art of negotiations. To say they wanted to keep Marrone and he left is what we been told But i really wonder if Marrone's services were wanted. OR the Pegula's knew how to force Marrone's hand. IE tell the ego maniac you are not getting more control, in fact you are getting less, forfeiture of control over your staff.

 

It will be interesting to watch Doug Marrone's career from here till he retires. Something tells me he will be a name in 15 years from now we will be scratching our heads to recall.

Kind of like Dick Jauron? Where is that guy now?