stevewin Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 Again, don't get me wrong. I think McCoy is great and he is going to out-produce nearly every back in the league. But is it more valuable to have a great 1700 yard back, or instead a platoon of a couple of good guys who can get you 1300 combined yards (plus still have Kiko)? I've started to think about this in the context of Thurman Thomas, who I think McCoy has a lot of similarities to. How many times when a team needs a couple yards, or needs to convert a makeable first down, does the drive end because some mediocre 'dime-a-dozen' platoon RB falls into the line, doesn't see a hole, can't get outside etc (See Buffalo Bills). Compare that to an elite RB where you feel, just feed him the ball and he will make it happen. It's about production. How many times did Thurman make critical plays throughout games that moved the chains and moved the team down the field - all because of his special talent and unique skill and ability. It is not just about total yards - it's also about what type of yards they were and when they came, and whether a lesser player could have gotten them. Also more and more I'm buying into the theory that Rex just felt that Kiko was a luxury - he could bring in someone like Harris and still have a great defense. So even though Kiko could have still been a great player, the team has other holes to fill. Bottom line they felt they didn't need him for the D to be great - so they used him to fill one of the holes with a net improvement (hopefully) in the talent/makeup of the overall team.
Chilly Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 (edited) Well, let me just say I'm glad the two of you aren't making the personnel decisions for this Buffalo Bills team. Moves like this aren't made in a vacuum -- they have to do with the rest of the team, what the current needs are, and what they can do to fill holes using some of their other assets. An underutilized or ill-fitting Kiko Alonso was not worth much to this team, particularly if they could gain a gamebreaker on offense. It may not sound like it, but I do believe this trade makes us a better football team today overall. I just don't know if it makes us a better team in the long term and certainly doesn't fit how I'd build a team personally. I get why we made the trade. I just don't have the same team building philosophy. Edited March 5, 2015 by BlueFire
Agent 91 Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 Except LB had been a major major need for the bills from about 2001 until last off season when we struck gold with Brown, signed Spikes, and Bradham finally had the light come on. All at once. Meanwhile there are 6 guys working at Walmart right now who will rush for 100 yards next season for the Pats*** Oh, and dont forget, Spikes is a goner, and now Kiko. Hughes hasnt been resigned. If we are converting to a 3-4, we now have only 2 LBr spots filled with Brown and Bradham. Who is going to play outside? What makes you think we are definitely going to a 34? it got overblown. When the Bills got Bryce last year Shady said he'd be the #1 RB on our team. Fred replied saying that He and CJ might be willing to put money on that bet. Lol dang. That is overblown and a non story
Deranged Rhino Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 Because you can't find it either? Well on Oct 28 Mike Schopp discussed trading Kiko for an OL or TE (which makes more sense to me actually than a RB) and one of the biggest supporters of the Kiko trade now GreggyT "Schopp confuses controversial opinions (good for his business) with absurdly idiotic opinions (bad for his business and explains why he's in Buffalo rather than a larger radio market)." http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/172600-do-the-bills-make-a-move-at-the-deadline/page-2 It's funny because that was his reaction to the general idea of trading Kiko which Schopp proposed. That wasn't my reaction to trading Kiko. That was my reaction to trading Kyle Williams and the expectation that Charles would overtake Kyle's production without breaking a sweat. My comments in that thread were about the idiocy of Schopp, not the brilliance (or good fortune) of landing the top RB in football for a guy who didn't play a down for us in '14. If you had proposed trading Kiko straight up for Gronk or Graham in October of last year, I would have laughed the idea out of town -- not because I wouldn't take it, but because I wouldn't expect the *pats or Saints to make that deal. Just like I would have never expected Philly to basically give the Bills one of league's most elite playmakers for a player who I like, but who has shredded the same knee twice and hasn't sniffed the field in a season. It's a no brainer for the Bills in my book.
Agent 91 Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 Yes, they are. The difference between the production of McCoy and a late round pick or a street free agent is simply not that great. It has been proven over and over and over the past 5-6 years. And when you factor in McCoy's cap hit as well, this is a horrific trade for Buffalo. Who are you comparing? And who was it that didn't play for shannahan? You said over and over and over. Which means its a common trend and not an anomaly. Im intrigued the only one (UDFA) currently succeeding in the nfl to the degree of McCoy without a top passing game (that's a big factor) is Arian Foster. Teams with great QBs and high powered passing games may very well be able to plug in just anyone because the D can't focus on them. We do not have that luxury, as we all saw last year. Stacked boxes all day. I was gonna spot him Alfred morris. Only person who was known for multiple thousand us rushers was shannahan out in Denver. Then he got similar production out of Morris. Thats all i have yeah, but in Philly they are televised apparently. As if Rex won't bring this team TV attention Guess he didn't hear... we are televised every week... IN BUFFALO. Is he a football player or Q list actor. That's a lot of value, imo. Let's say EJ develops into a solid starter, and Goodwin or Gragg gets some actual use under Roman, it'll look even better. where is woods
QB Bills Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 Stupid trade. Our running backs weren't the issue for the crappy ground game this year. Fred will outplay this latest hotshot just like he has done with everyone else in the past. McCoy won't have an offensive genius as a coach, nor will he have a good to borderline excellent o-line (with a hall of fame left tackle) to block for him. And I love how people keep saying that Kiko was overrated because of the d-line he plays with, and that Brown and Bradham might be better. Like they didn't play with the same players. Kiko was the best linebacker on this team, and he was under contract for two more years at less than a million bucks. And when that was up, he was going to be an RFA, not UFA. But yes, lets just say that he was just average after the first 5 games because he didn't have any more interceptions. Or that he sucked against the run because he took a bad angle on two plays, and leave out the multiple times he stuffed a runner in the backfield, or that the run defense was actually pretty good in the second half, other than the last game against the Patriots. It's like people don't even watch the games. Guess I'm in the minority here, but Whaley needs to go. He either doesn't have the authority (or the stones) to do what he wants, or he's just not good at his job. Just salary cap implications alone make this an awful move.
YoloinOhio Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 Who are you comparing? And who was it that didn't play for shannahan? You said over and over and over. Which means its a common trend and not an anomaly. Im intrigued I was gonna spot him Alfred morris. Only person who was known for multiple thousand us rushers was shannahan out in Denver. Then he got similar production out of Morris. Thats all i have Guess he didn't hear... we are televised every week... IN BUFFALO. Is he a football player or Q list actor. where is woods woods was our 2nd rd pick. Kiko was stl's.
NoSaint Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 Guess he didn't hear... we are televised every week... IN BUFFALO. Is he a football player or Q list actor. where is woods as a guy that wants national endorsements, its hard to blame him for wanting national showcases. that said, we will see some more of them than usual.
BuffaloBillsForever Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 (edited) Stupid trade. Our running backs weren't the issue for the crappy ground game this year. Fred will outplay this latest hotshot just like he has done with everyone else in the past. McCoy won't have an offensive genius as a coach, nor will he have a good to borderline excellent o-line (with a hall of fame left tackle) to block for him. And I love how people keep saying that Kiko was overrated because of the d-line he plays with, and that Brown and Bradham might be better. Like they didn't play with the same players. Kiko was the best linebacker on this team, and he was under contract for two more years at less than a million bucks. And when that was up, he was going to be an RFA, not UFA. But yes, lets just say that he was just average after the first 5 games because he didn't have any more interceptions. Or that he sucked against the run because he took a bad angle on two plays, and leave out the multiple times he stuffed a runner in the backfield, or that the run defense was actually pretty good in the second half, other than the last game against the Patriots. It's like people don't even watch the games. Guess I'm in the minority here, but Whaley needs to go. He either doesn't have the authority (or the stones) to do what he wants, or he's just not good at his job. Just salary cap implications alone make this an awful move. My main complaint about Whaley is being myopic the last two years in his moves for a chance at a wildcard birth. The Bills are nowhere near a championship calibre team right now and have been making moves which don't look at the long term of the club for sustainability. Edited March 5, 2015 by BuffaloBillsForever
Maury Ballstein Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 (edited) Stupid trade. Our running backs weren't the issue for the crappy ground game this year. Fred will outplay this latest hotshot just like he has done with everyone else in the past. McCoy won't have an offensive genius as a coach, nor will he have a good to borderline excellent o-line (with a hall of fame left tackle) to block for him. And I love how people keep saying that Kiko was overrated because of the d-line he plays with, and that Brown and Bradham might be better. Like they didn't play with the same players. Kiko was the best linebacker on this team, and he was under contract for two more years at less than a million bucks. And when that was up, he was going to be an RFA, not UFA. But yes, lets just say that he was just average after the first 5 games because he didn't have any more interceptions. Or that he sucked against the run because he took a bad angle on two plays, and leave out the multiple times he stuffed a runner in the backfield, or that the run defense was actually pretty good in the second half, other than the last game against the Patriots. It's like people don't even watch the games. Guess I'm in the minority here, but Whaley needs to go. He either doesn't have the authority (or the stones) to do what he wants, or he's just not good at his job. Just salary cap implications alone make this an awful move. Made up scenarios are fun huh ? You should prob bet the house on Fred outperforming that bum McCoy. Just gloss over the leader in rushing yards and first downs the last 5 years for the tired doom and gloom angle. We get it. So much doom. And lol to this team isn't close. Might as well wait a few more years to acquire the best rb in the league. Edited March 5, 2015 by Ryan L Billz
BuffaloBillsForever Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 Made up scenarios are fun huh ? You should prob bet the house on Fred outperforming that bum McCoy. Just gloss over the leader in rushing yards and first downs the last 5 years for the tired doom and gloom angle. We get it. So much doom. And lol to this team isn't close. Might as well wait a few more years to acquire the best rb in the league. I could see Fred getting cut.
PromoTheRobot Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 I just sat down and watched every ESPN and NFLN show I DVR'd yesterday. What a trip seeing the Bills be the lead story on every show. Opinions are all over the place.
Deranged Rhino Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 Stupid trade. Our running backs weren't the issue for the crappy ground game this year. Fred will outplay this latest hotshot just like he has done with everyone else in the past. McCoy won't have an offensive genius as a coach, nor will he have a good to borderline excellent o-line (with a hall of fame left tackle) to block for him. And I love how people keep saying that Kiko was overrated because of the d-line he plays with, and that Brown and Bradham might be better. Like they didn't play with the same players. Kiko was the best linebacker on this team, and he was under contract for two more years at less than a million bucks. And when that was up, he was going to be an RFA, not UFA. But yes, lets just say that he was just average after the first 5 games because he didn't have any more interceptions. Or that he sucked against the run because he took a bad angle on two plays, and leave out the multiple times he stuffed a runner in the backfield, or that the run defense was actually pretty good in the second half, other than the last game against the Patriots. It's like people don't even watch the games. Guess I'm in the minority here, but Whaley needs to go. He either doesn't have the authority (or the stones) to do what he wants, or he's just not good at his job. Just salary cap implications alone make this an awful move. Kiko wasn't the best LB on the team. Bradham outplayed Kiko's 13 season with his 15 game '14 season. That's not a slam on Kiko, it's a testament to how much Bradham developed. And Brown, for a rookie, showed he's going to be a player in this league. They can only play two LBs on most plays, it's clear they valued Bradham and Brown more than Kiko, especially with the questions about his knee's long term stability. I love Fred, but Fred isn't in McCoy's class and even he knows it. He's a completely different back and he won't beat out McCoy in camp. Fred will contribute to this team in '15, but barring an injury, this is McCoy's backfield now. And complaining that Whaley doesn't have stones is probably the most eye opening comment in this post considering the events of the past twenty four months. Take a deep breath. It'll be fine. The Bills are better today than they were yesterday. My main complaint about Whaley is being myopic the last two years in his moves for a chance at a wildcard birth. The Bills are nowhere near a championship calibre team right now and have been making moves which don't look at the long term of the club for sustainability. If you don't think this is a better roster today than it was seventy two hours ago, I don't know what to tell you other than you might have a "you" problem, not a Whaley problem.
YoloinOhio Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 @ChrisTrapasso: Watched first 4 games of McCoy's 2014 to get better grasp on his capabilities. Plenty of this. https://t.co/2IP1E49Tpp
Deranged Rhino Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 @ChrisTrapasso: Watched first 4 games of McCoy's 2014 to get better grasp on his capabilities. Plenty of this. https://t.co/2IP1E49Tpp A dime a dozen...
YoloinOhio Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 @ChrisTrapasso: So far, I haven't seen anything that indicates McCoy has seen his outrageous shiftiness diminish. https://t.co/NeMgNFW6VL Meh IMO
Deranged Rhino Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 @ChrisTrapasso: So far, I haven't seen anything that indicates McCoy has seen his outrageous shiftiness diminish. https://t.co/NeMgNFW6VL Meh IMO Of course not, because the only people who think Shady's lost a step are JTSP and like minded hysterics who think the sky is falling with every move Buffalo does. The guy's in his prime. This is going to be a fun year to be a Bills fan.
K-9 Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 A dime a dozen... I did a paint-by-numbers rendition of the 'Mona Lisa' once. Looks just like the real thing. GO BILLS!!!
YoloinOhio Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 More film study- @ChrisTrapasso: In first four, Eagles certainly had many well-blocked plays, but McCoy excelled between LOS - 2nd level and beyond with rare lateral agility @ChrisTrapasso: Wasn't just him running straight thro big lanes. Some blown up plays, esp post-OL injuries. But his elusiveness jumps off screen on each run
Deranged Rhino Posted March 5, 2015 Posted March 5, 2015 I did a paint-by-numbers rendition of the 'Mona Lisa' once. Looks just like the real thing. GO BILLS!!! That's fantastic!
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