What happens with Marquise Goodwin?

[JohnC]

This is kind of how I feel. I would play him about 10 snaps a game and throw him 2 deep balls a game. I don't care if everyone know why he is out there. He runs by everyone!! Throw them up and hope for completions or flags. He has a purpose but should not be counted on to do more than that.

What you just described is how TJ Graham was used. Not only did Graham possess high end speed but he was much more durable than Goodwin.

 

Goodwin was an intriguing prospect because of his impressive speed. Not only was he a speedster but he was a world class athlete (difference from speed). All his exceptional physical talents are undercut by the negative factor that he is very fragile in a crash sport.

 

When Goodwin is on the field the defense knows what routes he can run and what he can't. He's not going to run routes over the middle because he is going to get pummeled and predictably hurt. So the one route he is usually going to run (even with his great speed) is going to be accounted for by the defensive backfield.

 

The long routes that Goodwin regularly runs has lacked much utility because our OL couldn't pass block adequately enough and because our qb play has been so dreadful.

 

As it stands this was another Buddy Nix squandered high pick. You can add this cute pick to the wasteful Buddy picks that include Torrel Troup etc.

 

As it stands Goodwin is a niche player when this team is lacking enough quality useful football players. Hogan doesn't have the impressive physical attributes that Goodwin possesses but he is a more productive football player. Very often when you try to outsmart others you outsmart yourself. That's the Tom Donahoe syndrome. Goodwin is the type of prospect who excells in the combine setting. But when you put him on the field with real game time action he doesn't give you much production because he is more often than not on the sidelines being attended to by the trainers.

Edited February 21, 2015 by JohnC

[3rdand12]

Goodwin can block run routes and catch. Comparing him to TJ as a player is unfair.

The only downside to Goodwin , and it is significant, is his health. The kid can play football.

[Kirby Jackson]

What you just described is how TJ Graham was used. Not only did Graham possess high end speed but he was much more durable than Goodwin.

 

Goodwin was an intriguing prospect because of his impressive speed. Not only was he a speedster but he was a world class athlete (difference from speed). All his exceptional physical talents are undercut by the negative factor that he is very fragile in a crash sport.

 

When Goodwin is on the field the defense knows what routes he can run and what he can't. He's not going to run routes over the middle because he is going to get pummeled and predictably hurt. So the one route he is usually going to run (even with his great speed) is going to be accounted for by the defensive backfield.

 

The long routes that Goodwin regularly runs has lacked much utility because our OL couldn't pass block adequately enough and because our qb play has been so dreadful.

 

As it stands this was another Buddy Nix squandered high pick. You can add this cute pick to the wasteful Buddy picks that include Torrel Troup etc.

 

As it stands Goodwin is a niche player when this team is lacking enough quality useful football players. Hogan doesn't have the impressive physical attributes that Goodwin possesses but he is a more productive football player. Very often when you try to outsmart others you outsmart yourself. That's the Tom Donahoe syndrome. Goodwin is the type of prospect who excells in the combine setting. But when you put him on the field with real game time action he doesn't give you much production because he is more often than not on the sidelines being attended to by the trainers.

I guess that I am proposing using him exactly like he was used as a rookie. 32 targets is what he had as a rookie and 17 catches. He averaged 17 yards a reception and that doesn't factor in the PI calls (as good as a catch). If he can have a total of 10 deep catches or PI calls he will make a much bigger impact than Larry Dean (whose ST play would be picked up by Powell, Johnson or whoever).

 

We are not comparing Goodwin to the other receivers at this point. We are comparing him to the other guys that were active on gameday. His 10 big plays over the course of the year are more important than the delta on ST between Dean and whoever.

 

Goodwin is absolutely an injury plagued, niche player. That doesn't mean that he has no purpose. If you can afford an active roster spot for Larry Dean you can afford one for Marquise Goodwin.

[3rdand12]

Goodwin is always one crisp shot from being on IR. Love his speed, but he is a liability, and you can't coach durability.I say he gets cut in preseason.

You might be right.

I hope not, that this coaching staff can do a little better with our receivers as a whole compared to the last two years !!

[JohnC]

Goodwin can block run routes and catch. Comparing him to TJ as a player is unfair.

The only downside to Goodwin , and it is significant, is his health. The kid can play football.

 

You can't play well if you are not on the field because of constant injuries. There is a major difference between what a player is capable of and what a player actually does.

[EasternOHBillsFan]

Goodwin is a lot like Roscoe Parrish... pretty damn good when he plays and is healthy. It's a shame he hasn't been able to be out there all the time, because we need him.

 

He should NEVER be compared to T.J. Graham... I consider that to be an insult to Goodwin. Graham was a bum.

[JohnC]

Last year we had 7 players active strictly to play ST. That was definitely the most in the league. What is the dropoff on ST from Larry Dean to Randell Johnson? That difference is all that you have to sacrifice in order to play Goodwin.

Don't minimize the importance of good special team play. Sometimes it is difficult to measure the contribution it makes to winning but it becomes very apparent when you have poor ST play that leads to big plays against you.

 

You make the argument that Goodwin is useful because he is a decoy. There is another argument to be made that another productive wideout who actually makes receptions helps to take some extra coverage off of Watkins and Woods.

 

The theortical argument that Goodwin stretches the defense because of his mere presence is neutralized by the reality that due to his inability to stay on the field he has little impact for our offense.

Goodwin is a lot like Roscoe Parrish... pretty damn good when he plays and is healthy. It's a shame he hasn't been able to be out there all the time, because we need him.

 

He should NEVER be compared to T.J. Graham... I consider that to be an insult to Goodwin. Graham was a bum.

Graham the bum was on the field more frequently than your hidden gem who was being serviced in the training room.

[Kirby Jackson]

Don't minimize the importance of good special team play. Sometimes it is difficult to measure the contribution it makes to winning but it becomes very apparent when you have poor ST play that leads to big plays against you.

 

It's not that you are playing with one less guy on the field on ST. You are just using Johnson, Powell or whoever instead of Dean. We are only sacrificing the difference between the 2.

 

My personal feeling is that the reason that the Bills dressed 7 guys solely for ST (plus Graham and Dixon added) was b/c St. Doug wanted his buddy Crossman to look good. The ST would still be really good without activating Dean.

 

The decoy part is as much about the running game. The safeties don't need to focus on average receivers like Hogan. They do have to worry about Goodwin over the top. His presence keeps them away from the LOs. If it doesn't than you are looking up top to him in man coverage and seeing who is going to run with him.

 

Again, I am saying that he should play 10 snaps a game on offense. That is not many at all. Your roster needs complimentary skill sets and you have room for specialists. You have pretty well rounded receivers in Watkins, Hogan and Woods. You could use a deep guy (Goodwin) and a red zone target (not yet there).

Edited February 21, 2015 by Kirby Jackson

[Tampa Bob]

The Bills could bench someone like Larry Dean who was just used to play ST in favor of dressing Goodwin. You would play Goodwin 10 snaps a game and throw him 2 deep balls a game. Between pass interference and catches he will in all likelihood make 10 big plays this year. That is a much bigger impact on the outcome of games than Larry Dean's ST contributions. Instead of using Dean on ST you would just use someone else in his place. Do you follow?

Similar example where this has worked for a good offense? We could just get a better player.

[Rubes]

It's not that you are playing with one less guy on the field on ST. You are just using Johnson, Powell or whoever instead of Dean. We are only sacrificing the difference between the 2.

 

My personal feeling is that the reason that the Bills dressed 7 guys solely for ST (plus Graham and Doxon added) was b/c St. Doug wanted his buddy Crossman to look good. The ST would still be really good without activating Dean.

 

The decoy part is asuch about the running game. The safeties don't need to focus on average receivers like Hogan. They do have to worry about Goodwin over the top. His presence keeps them away from the LOs. If it doesn't than you are looking up top to him in man coverage and seeing who is going to run with him.

 

Again, I am saying that he should play 10 snaps a game on offense. That is not many at all. Your roster needs complimentary skill sets and you have room for specialists. You have pretty well rounded receivers in Watkins, Hogan and Woods. You could use a deep guy (Goodwin) and a red zone target (not yet there).

 

I get most of your arguments and I mostly agree, but I really don't buy that one.

[Kirby Jackson]

 

I get most of your arguments and I mostly agree, but I really don't buy that one.

Its a little hyperbole with the word "solely." The point stands that the Bills poured WAY more resources in to ST than other teams. 7 guys active to do nothing but ST and then they signed two ST studs (Dixon and Graham as well). The ST would have been very good without Dean and maybe even Gay (even though I was okay with the KO specialist).

Similar example where this has worked for a good offense? We could just get a better player.

I can only make the case built on the Bills roster. If they get a better player to play the position by all means play him. That is where your point loses me. That guy isn't here to decide if he should be playing or Goodwin.

 

Who do you think makes a bigger impact on the team Larry Dean or Marquise Goodwin? That is the question and to me it is a no brainer.

Edited February 21, 2015 by Kirby Jackson

[Bills Fan of St Augustine]

The importance of a good kick returner have diminished significantly with the new kick off rules. Returns are nearly non-existent. A PR adds value. Carrying someone who might have a ball thrown is way once or twice a game and then not contribute meaningfully on STs seems like a luxury we can ill afford. Rather carry and extra DB.

[BuffaloBillsMagic1]

Who the heck is Larry Dean?

[Matt in KC]

I like him to but hes like 5'9" 165 lbs. Dosent seem built for the NFL.

He weighed in at 183 at the combine, and the Bills site lists him at 179. I'm not saying he's not slender, but those 14 pounds make a difference.

 

 

Goodwin is a very active blocker, seeking out and initiating contact.

 

I like Goodwin and think he's well worth a roster spot. But if we have better options, that is great for the team.

[3rdand12]

Don't minimize the importance of good special team play. Sometimes it is difficult to measure the contribution it makes to winning but it becomes very apparent when you have poor ST play that leads to big plays against you.

 

You make the argument that Goodwin is useful because he is a decoy. There is another argument to be made that another productive wideout who actually makes receptions helps to take some extra coverage off of Watkins and Woods.

 

The theortical argument that Goodwin stretches the defense because of his mere presence is neutralized by the reality that due to his inability to stay on the field he has little impact for our offense.

Graham the bum was on the field more frequently than your hidden gem who was being serviced in the training room.

Yes he was. But teams stopped covering him.

[respk]

The Bills might be better off to replace Goodwin with a receiver who can play special teams and run the twice a game fly pattern for 6 or 7 games a season. When the offense is this bad, one trick ponies like Goodwin may not make sense.

[3rdand12]

You can't play well if you are not on the field because of constant injuries. There is a major difference between what a player is capable of and what a player actually does.

agreed.

The Bills might be better off to replace Goodwin with a receiver who can play special teams and run the twice a game fly pattern for 6 or 7 games a season. When the offense is this bad, one trick ponies like Goodwin may not make sense.

How fast is Thigpen ?

[JohnC]

My personal feeling is that the reason that the Bills dressed 7 guys solely for ST (plus Graham and Dixon added) was b/c St. Doug wanted his buddy Crossman to look good. The ST would still be really good without activating Dean.

 

 

I'm making the same point that Rubes made in his post #50 regarding DM's favoritism toward his buddy Crossman and his ST's coach. You are basically saying that the HC at his offense's expense enhanced the the play of the ST unit because he favored Crossman to the detriment of Hackett, the OC. I'm not trying to diminish your view but it is a very odd position to take.

 

The reallity is that Goodwin was mostly off the shelf due to injury issues. The prior year the Bills' ST play struggled. So the HC placed an emphasis on STs and also the defense. If you reflect on the situation that DM had to deal with he had to do everything he could to compensate for a very limited offense due to its inept OL and poor qb play. That strategy should be understood in the context that the offense was incapable of being consistently productive. That wasn't an unreasonable approach to take.

 

It's apparent that DM is not a very popular figure, especially considering the way he departed. But the view that he sabotaged his team at his own peril is not only absurd but it is also silly.

Edited February 21, 2015 by JohnC

[Kirby Jackson]

I'm making the same point that Rubes made in his post #50 regarding DM's favoritism toward his buddy Crossman and his ST's coach. You are basically saying that the HC at his offense's expense enhanced the the play of the ST unit because he favored Crossman to the detriment of Hackett, the OC. I'm not trying to diminish your view but it is a very odd position to take.

 

The reallity is that Goodwin was mostly off the shelf due to injury issues. The prior year the Bills' ST play struggled. So the HC placed an emphasis on STs and also the defense. If you reflect on the situation that DM had to deal with he had to do everything he could to cinoebsate for a very limited offense due to its inept OL and qb play. That strategy should be understood in the context that the offense was incapable of being consistently productive. That wasn't an unreasonable approach to take.

 

It's apparent that DM is not a very popular figure, especially considering the way he departed. But the view that he sabotaged his team at his own peril is not only absurd but it is also silly.

Crossman was the one under fire last year. Everybody was calling for his head at that point. Hackett wasn't beloved but he wasn't crucified either. MANY (including people here) were very surprised and disappointed that Crossman was retained.

 

I don't remember Goodwin being a healthy scratch (maybe he was). He's always hurt so I don't know when he isn't playing if he is healthy or hurt. The point being, if healthy, I'd rather he be active than Dean. He is more likely to impact the outcome of a game.

 

Ultimately at the bottom of your roster that is what you want. Guys like Thigpen do the same. I don't need to dress Chris's Gragg or Dorin Dickerson or Tashard Choice or Donald Jones or any of the other end of the depth chart skill guys that are (or were) limited physically. While they more be more consistent than Goodwin it won't matter because of pushed into a larger role you are in trouble (See Donald Jones as an every down receiver).

[YoloinOhio]

Who the heck is Larry Dean?

ST Player they signed during the season. Backup LB.