GunnerBill Posted July 18, 2015 Posted July 18, 2015 (edited) More like a FIVE year old who thinks Russel Wilson isn't elite no matter how many championships he wins, but Phil Rivers IS elite no matter how many passes he throws to the opposing team. Except I've never said any of those things. Indeed, I have said Wilson may well become elite but isn't yet and I have said consistently throughout this thread who I think the elite guys in the league over the past 5-10 years have been and Rivers wasn't one of them. But then I'm expecting a level of English comprehension of which it seems you are not capable. You are too busy with your childish insults. Edited July 18, 2015 by GunnerBill
#34fan Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 You think he is better than Rivers? Really? Wow. I don't see that I am sorry. Better than Eli, yes I'd go along with and I wouldn't pick an argument over better than Flacco either (Although I rate Flacco very highly - probably higher than most) but Philip Rivers is a top 6 Quarterback in this league and has been for a long time IMO. I just cannot put Wilson there. I see those backpedaling lessons from J-mo are going just fine. Even if he wasn't a turnover machine, Rivers days of productivity in this league are numbered.... Aside from some good timng with his receivers, there's just not much to look forward to in his case... Rivers has some of the poorest throwing mechanics I've seen in an NFL QB. And his javelin-toss seems to be worsening with age... With the exception of '13, he's been AT or NEAR the top of INT's thrown the last four years... And being someone who doesn't like trash-talk, you may want to cover your ears around Phil on game day... -He's one of the most petty, whiny, trash-talking, qb's you'll ever see...
GunnerBill Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 So where do I say he is elite? I have been very clear who I think is elite. You my friend struggle either with reading or basic comprehension.
Doc Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 I think they'll let him play this season to see how far the team goes after losing some pieces and then franchise him for ~$17M if a reasonable long-term deal can't be worked out.
#34fan Posted July 19, 2015 Posted July 19, 2015 For most of the last 5 years there have only been 4 elite Quarterbacks in the NFL to my mind - Brady, Manning, Brees and Rodgers with Big Ben and Rivers just behind. While I don't think anyone cares what "elite" means in your unschooled estimation, the fact that you consider Big Ben and Rivers "just behind" the cut clearly puts BOTH in the conversation for eliteness.. Why reveal your stance, just to abandon it? -Pathetic.
GunnerBill Posted July 20, 2015 Posted July 20, 2015 No you want to read things that are not there. You are beyond pathetic. "Only 4 elite guys." Could not be more clear. Idiot.
#34fan Posted July 20, 2015 Posted July 20, 2015 No you want to read things that are not there. You are beyond pathetic. "Only 4 elite guys." Could not be more clear. Idiot. Easy guv'na.... Yes, you did in fact say "only 4 elite guys". However, you took it a step further when you said, "With Big Ben and Rivers just behind" This imples that you find River's body of work at least comparable to the other five... It's insane.. -But if that's how you feel, why not own it?
GunnerBill Posted July 20, 2015 Posted July 20, 2015 I find your work comparable to that of every other poster on this board...... and not in a good way.
#34fan Posted July 21, 2015 Posted July 21, 2015 I find your work comparable to that of every other poster on this board...... and not in a good way. Blah, blah, more limp-wristed stuff... Look Bill, When you and J-mo came out and said unilaterally that Wilson did NOT deserve to be the highest paid player in the NFL, that burden of proof shifted to you... That's what you took-on....What's clear after much discussion, is that NEITHER of you are capable of meeting this burden... You failed... That's all... No need to insult the entire board on your way back to the UEFA website... Just go... Go back to what you understand..
BarleyNY Posted July 21, 2015 Posted July 21, 2015 Blah, blah, more limp-wristed stuff... Look Bill, When you and J-mo came out and said unilaterally that Wilson did NOT deserve to be the highest paid player in the NFL, that burden of proof shifted to you... That's what you took-on....What's clear after much discussion, is that NEITHER of you are capable of meeting this burden... You failed... That's all... No need to insult the entire board on your way back to the UEFA website... Just go... Go back to what you understand.. This post is stupid in more ways than I can count. And I've yet to see any compelling evidence that Wilson should be the highest paid player in the game. The fact that he's about the 10-12th best QB in the NFL would make most reasonable people say he shouldn't be.
Kelly the Dog Posted July 21, 2015 Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) This post is stupid in more ways than I can count. And I've yet to see any compelling evidence that Wilson should be the highest paid player in the game. The fact that he's about the 10-12th best QB in the NFL would make most reasonable people say he shouldn't be.Except contracts are not at all about who is the best player in the game, even though I imagine few football people would call him 10-12. 5-6 is more like it. Contracts are about expected production and age, combined with recent previous contracts at the position. He gets an A+ in all three categories. Throw in the fact that he outplayed his previous contract by about 20x and you get highest paid contract in the game. Three of those four items are inarguable. The only one that is is how good he is. You think 10-12. I guarantee his own team thinks more like top 5. They won the SB and should have won two with him. Carroll is his biggest fan. They shipped out their two best WR just because they didn't get along with him. Edited July 21, 2015 by Kelly the Dog
thebandit27 Posted July 21, 2015 Posted July 21, 2015 Blah, blah, more limp-wristed stuff... Look Bill, When you and J-mo came out and said unilaterally that Wilson did NOT deserve to be the highest paid player in the NFL, that burden of proof shifted to you... That's what you took-on....What's clear after much discussion, is that NEITHER of you are capable of meeting this burden... You failed... That's all... No need to insult the entire board on your way back to the UEFA website... Just go... Go back to what you understand.. As someone without a dog in this fight, I have to say: your arguments and methodology appear juvenile. There's no "burden of proof"...this is a message board, not a court of law. Others have opinions that differ from yours, and they've clearly provided reasoning for why they have those opinions. That doesn't mean you have to agree, nor does it mean you have to respond with well-reasoned arguments of your own. It would, however, help your credibility if you took part in more logical discussion and less low-brow shot-taking. For my opinion: I don't think Wilson belongs being the highest-paid QB in the NFL. I could see him going for top-5 money (as I said before), somewhere between the $20M/year that Drew Brees and Joe Flacco got after winning their Superbowls and the $21.85M/year that Big Ben is currently making as a 2-time Superbowl winner. He does not, however, belong making more money than Aaron Rodgers or Big Ben IMO. The number that makes the most sense, to me, is $21M/year, since that would put him at 3rd amongst QBs, ahead of Cam Newton and Matt Ryan and behind Rodgers and Ben.
BarleyNY Posted July 21, 2015 Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) Except contracts are not at all about who is the best player in the game, even though I imagine few football people would call him 10-12. 5-6 is more like it. Contracts are about expected production and age, combined with recent previous contracts at the position. He gets an A+ in all three categories. Throw in the fact that he outplayed his previous contract by about 20x and you get highest paid contract in the game. Three of those four items are inarguable. The only one that is is how good he is. You think 10-12. I guarantee his own team thinks more like top 5. They won the SB and should have won two with him. Carroll is his biggest fan. They shipped out their two best WR just because they didn't get along with him. What 3 categories? You didn't list 3. He was 12th in QBR last season, 20 points below the highest rated QBs. QBR isn't perfect, but looking at the QBs above and below him I wouldn't put him above one of the 11 listed above him. I wouldn't move a single QB listed below him above him, however. 10-12th is about right. http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr/_/stats/expanded Look at recent contracts. Heck, look at all contracts for QBs: http://overthecap.com/position/quarterback/ He should be very happy with long term deal at around $20M a year IMO. That's very reasonable considering all factors. As I've noted before, if he insists on $25M a year the Seahwks could franchise him for the next 4 straight years for just a hair less than that on average per year. So what would you pay him? How do you justify top 5-6? Edited July 21, 2015 by BarleyNY
Kelly the Dog Posted July 21, 2015 Posted July 21, 2015 What 3 categories? You didn't list 3. He was 12th in QBR last season, 20 points below the highest rated QBs. QBR isn't perfect, but looking at the QBs above and below him I wouldn't put him above one of the 11 listed above him. I wouldn't move a single QB listed below him above him, however. 10-12th is about right.http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr/_/stats/expanded Look at recent contracts. Heck, look at all contracts for QBs:http://overthecap.com/position/quarterback/ He should be very happy with long term deal at around $20M a year IMO. That's very reasonable considering all factors. As I've noted before, if he insists on $25M a year the Seahwks could franchise him for the next 4 straight years for just a hair less than that on average per year. So what would you pay him? How do you justify top 5-6? How is "projected performance and age, combined with recent previous contracts at the position" not equal three? Perhaps that's why you can't figure out contracts, you suck at math. It's also easy to justify top 5. He wins games, he wins Super Bowls, he makes plays, he makes big plays, he puts up numbers, he puts up better numbers in the playoffs, he gives defenses fits, he's got a cannon for an arm, he's a smart player, he's a great leader, he's a great runner, and he's got zero weaknesses. Add it up. Oh, right, you can't.
thebandit27 Posted July 21, 2015 Posted July 21, 2015 What 3 categories? You didn't list 3. He was 12th in QBR last season, 20 points below the highest rated QBs. QBR isn't perfect, but looking at the QBs above and below him I wouldn't put him above one of the 11 listed above him. I wouldn't move a single QB listed below him above him, however. 10-12th is about right. http://espn.go.com/nfl/qbr/_/stats/expanded Look at recent contracts. Heck, look at all contracts for QBs: http://overthecap.com/position/quarterback/ He should be very happy with long term deal at around $20M a year IMO. That's very reasonable considering all factors. As I've noted before, if he insists on $25M a year the Seahwks could franchise him for the next 4 straight years for just a hair less than that on average per year. So what would you pay him? How do you justify top 5-6? $20M per year would be top 5-6.
Wayne Cubed Posted July 21, 2015 Posted July 21, 2015 How is "projected performance and age, combined with recent previous contracts at the position" not equal three? Perhaps that's why you can't figure out contracts, you suck at math. It's also easy to justify top 5. He wins games, he wins Super Bowls, he makes plays, he makes big plays, he puts up numbers, he puts up better numbers in the playoffs, he gives defenses fits, he's got a cannon for an arm, he's a smart player, he's a great leader, he's a great runner, and he's got zero weaknesses. Add it up. Oh, right, you can't. Oh come on, he has weaknesses. He very, very rarely throws down the middle of the field, mostly because of his height. He tends to crouch down in the pocket, whereas Brees plays more on his toes and kind of rooster's his neck back. It also means Wilson misses plays that can be made downfield. He's quick to run out of 'clean pockets'. Which is a positive and a negative. It looks good because he's able to pick up chunks of running yards but he then misses wide open players where if he stayed in the pocket, there were bigger plays to make. Like I've said previously, I think he'll get paid, I just don't think he should be the highest paid QB just because he's up for a new contract. Both Bryant and Thomas's WR contracts aren't higher then Megatrons contract he got 3 years ago. I'd say Bryant is certainly is a top 5 WR and was reportedly asking for $17m a year which would have paid him more than Megatron. In the end he settled on being the 2nd highest paid receiver.
Kelly the Dog Posted July 21, 2015 Posted July 21, 2015 (edited) Oh come on, he has weaknesses. He very, very rarely throws down the middle of the field, mostly because of his height. He tends to crouch down in the pocket, whereas Brees plays more on his toes and kind of rooster's his neck back. It also means Wilson misses plays that can be made downfield. He's quick to run out of 'clean pockets'. Which is a positive and a negative. It looks good because he's able to pick up chunks of running yards but he then misses wide open players where if he stayed in the pocket, there were bigger plays to make. Like I've said previously, I think he'll get paid, I just don't think he should be the highest paid QB just because he's up for a new contract. Both Bryant and Thomas's WR contracts aren't higher then Megatrons contract he got 3 years ago. I'd say Bryant is certainly is a top 5 WR and was reportedly asking for $17m a year which would have paid him more than Megatron. In the end he settled on being the 2nd highest paid receiver. He is quick to run out of clean pockets, I will agree to that but it's only a weakness if he is not getting results with his decisions, which he does. He doesn't throw nearly as many passes over the middle because a huge portion of his passes are designed rollouts and another large portion are scrambles. That's not a weakness. And he doesn't get many passes blocked over the middle. He also doesn't have good tight ends for the middle. I'd expect his passes to the middle to rise depending on how they use Jimmy Graham. Bree's is a pocket passer. Wilson can throw from the pocket and throw well. He's lethal on the run though. He's a unique player. Most running QBs can't throw well, too. Throwing out total passing stats ignores his enormous advantage and one of his main weapons. He was the 16th best runner in the league. He gained like 850 yards on the ground. Edited July 21, 2015 by Kelly the Dog
Kelly the Dog Posted July 21, 2015 Posted July 21, 2015 For example, Brady passed for 4109 yards and had 57 rushing yards for 4166. Wilson passed for 3475 and rushed for 849 for 4324.
LB3 Posted July 22, 2015 Posted July 22, 2015 How is "projected performance and age, combined with recent previous contracts at the position" not equal three? Perhaps that's why you can't figure out contracts, you suck at math. It's also easy to justify top 5. He wins games, he wins Super Bowls, he makes plays, he makes big plays, he puts up numbers, he puts up better numbers in the playoffs, he gives defenses fits, he's got a cannon for an arm, he's a smart player, he's a great leader, he's a great runner, and he's got zero weaknesses. Add it up. Oh, right, you can't. :worthy:
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