The Big Cat Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Their career arcs are very similar to this point to be honest. Their career arcs are very similar in their first three years. RW--as has been said a thousand times in this thread--has not accomplished much as a QB. Big Ben is a first ballot hall of famer who will have shattered all of his franchise's QB records, if he hasn't already. We have no idea if RW can/will become the kind of passer Big Ben has evolved into. And in terms of who's more valuable to their respective team, take them both off the 2015 roster, and the Steelers easily lose five games they would have won, at least. I do not think the same is true for RW and the Seahags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jauronimo Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Their career arcs are very similar in their first three years. RW--as has been said a thousand times in this thread--has not accomplished much as a QB. Big Ben is a first ballot hall of famer who will have shattered all of his franchise's QB records, if he hasn't already. We have no idea if RW can/will become the kind of passer Big Ben has evolved into. And in terms of who's more valuable to their respective team, take them both off the 2015 roster, and the Steelers easily lose five games they would have won, at least. I do not think the same is true for RW and the Seahags. But we do know that RW already is that type of passer by virtue of the fact that he just isn't asked to do it. If he were asked to do it, he'd do it. Where have you been for the past 10 pages? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Their career arcs are very similar to this point to be honest. That doesn't matter. You don't pay Wilson based on a projection that he will have a similar career arc to Roethlisberger. You base it on what he has done and his expected career arc, which I'd argue is limited by his physical stature and lesser physical tools compared to Roethlisberger's. Wilson is younger and has a much better chance of finishing his contract than Roethlisberger. He will get another regular length contract, too. Roethlisberger won't. Those are reasons to bring his contract up near Roethlisberger's, but expected improvement isn't. Wilson is likely as good as he's going to get. He should be commended - and well compensated - for squeezing every bit possible out of his limited physical ability. That's impressive. But he's got no more room to grow. What you've seen thus far is what you're going to get from Wilson until his physical abilities deteriorate due to age or injury. That's what you pay him for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 That doesn't matter. You don't pay Wilson based on a projection that he will have a similar career arc to Roethlisberger. You base it on what he has done and his expected career arc, which I'd argue is limited by his physical stature and lesser physical tools compared to Roethlisberger's. Wilson is younger and has a much better chance of finishing his contract than Roethlisberger. He will get another regular length contract, too. Roethlisberger won't. Those are reasons to bring his contract up near Roethlisberger's, but expected improvement isn't. Wilson is likely as good as he's going to get. He should be commended - and well compensated - for squeezing every bit possible out of his limited physical ability. That's impressive. But he's got no more room to grow. What you've seen thus far is what you're going to get from Wilson until his physical abilities deteriorate due to age or injury. That's what you pay him for. I agree that you cannot pay him on what is projected from him. So let's just use the Flacco example, because he's a guy that made the playoffs every year and then won a Superbowl the year before he was to become a FA. Flacco is now the 5th-highest-paid QB in the NFL in terms of annual compensation at $20.1M/year. Two of the 3 guys ahead of him, Cam Newton and Matt Ryan (at $20.75M/year and $20.76M/year, respectively), have not won Superbowls. I don't think it's unjustified for Wilson to be asking for more than those guys given that he's won a Superbowl and is younger than both. If I'm Wilson, my number starts at $21M/year, which puts him less than $1M/year behind Ben. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 I agree that you cannot pay him on what is projected from him. So let's just use the Flacco example, because he's a guy that made the playoffs every year and then won a Superbowl the year before he was to become a FA. Flacco is now the 5th-highest-paid QB in the NFL in terms of annual compensation at $20.1M/year. Two of the 3 guys ahead of him, Cam Newton and Matt Ryan (at $20.75M/year and $20.76M/year, respectively), have not won Superbowls. I don't think it's unjustified for Wilson to be asking for more than those guys given that he's won a Superbowl and is younger than both. If I'm Wilson, my number starts at $21M/year, which puts him less than $1M/year behind Ben. Flacco has had all of his best performances in the playoffs, not least of which were en route to a SB win. He was damn-near single-handedly willing his team to victory. AGAIN--I don't think anyone believes the Seahags are winning games because of RW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 I get it. Everyone else improves with experience and knowledge of defenses and maturity but Russell Wilson just stops growing, probably because that is what happened to him with height. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 I get it. Everyone else improves with experience and knowledge of defenses and maturity but Russell Wilson just stops growing, probably because that is what happened to him with height. No one is saying that. That's the whole !@#$ing point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 I get it. Everyone else improves with experience and knowledge of defenses and maturity but Russell Wilson just stops growing, probably because that is what happened to him with height. A) not everyone does. Plenty of guys plateau, or even end up going backwards. I think everyone here is agreeing he goes forward, we're just debating where he's starting and how far he still goes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 No one is saying that. That's the whole !@#$ing point.Who in the list of QBs you guys mentioned has not got better after their rookie, second, and third season? Flacco? Big Ben? Rodgers? Brady? Matt Ryan's team got worse he's still pretty good except for one season. Newton's getting better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Who in the list of QBs you guys mentioned has not got better after their rookie, second, and third season? Flacco? Big Ben? Rodgers? Brady? Matt Ryan's team got worse he's still pretty good except for one season. Newton's getting better. That question does literally nothing to counter anything anyone you're trying to counter has been saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 A) not everyone does. Plenty of guys plateau, or even end up going backwards. I think everyone here is agreeing he goes forward, we're just debating where he's starting and how far he still goesQBs do. Not top QBs. It's rather amusing to have to keep reviewing (this is not for you). All time great college season. Beats out prize FA. Plays well right off the bat. Gets better. Super Bowl winner. Gets better. Should be SB winner two but let's not even count that. Has everything you want in a QB and more, including and especially the talent, intelligence, drive and dedication to the game. So now he is expected to drop off the cliff. Got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 QBs do. Not top QBs. It's rather amusing to have to keep reviewing (this is not for you). All time great college season. Beats out prize FA. Plays well right off the bat. Gets better. Super Bowl winner. Gets better. Should be SB winner two but let's not even count that. Has everything you want in a QB and more, including and especially the talent, intelligence, drive and dedication to the game. So now he is expected to drop off the cliff. Got it. I'll go devils advocate a little - Andy dalton is a 19+ deal, and isn't kaepernick on a deal worth 20+ (with a disclaimer that they are team friendly). Then joe flacco- is anyone arguing he is still making strides or has he plateaued a bit? Big Ben is a great example of a game manager with great success that took the next step though. Some guys move forward and some guys stay put. I think RW keeps going forward but.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 That question does literally nothing to counter anything anyone you're trying to counter has been saying.Some like yourself say he will never evolve into what Big Ben has evolved into, or what Flacco has evolved into. Others said we cannot expect this growth to continue. Others said you cannot pay him on what his projected arc is but on what others have become already (apparently in their 10th or so seasons). Contacts are based on projection and age as well as on past performance. Wilson has an A+ on all of those. I'll go devils advocate a little - Andy dalton is a 19+ deal, and isn't kaepernick on a deal worth 20+ (with a disclaimer that they are team friendly). Then joe flacco- is anyone arguing he is still making strides or has he plateaued a bit? Big Ben is a great example of a game manager with great success that took the next step though. Some guys move forward and some guys stay put. I think RW keeps going forward but.... This is my entire point. Andy Dalton and Kaep have clear weaknesses. Most people that watch pro football thought that Daltons stats were way overrated by his receivers and he wasn't very good because of his rag arm and bad decision making. Kaep had all kinds of weaknesses. Those are the guys that plateau. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Some like yourself say he will never evolve into what Big Ben has evolved into, or what Flacco has evolved into. Others said we cannot expect this growth to continue. Others said you cannot pay him on what his projected arc is but on what others have become already (apparently in their 10th or so seasons). Contacts are based on projection and age as well as on past performance. Wilson has an A+ on all of those. Please show me where I said he never will. It's really not that hard to follow. You think he should be paid as if development were inevitable, everyone else believes that precedent doesn't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Some like yourself say he will never evolve into what Big Ben has evolved into, or what Flacco has evolved into. Others said we cannot expect this growth to continue. Others said you cannot pay him on what his projected arc is but on what others have become already (apparently in their 10th or so seasons). Contacts are based on projection and age as well as on past performance. Wilson has an A+ on all of those. This is my entire point. Andy Dalton and Kaep have clear weaknesses. Most people that watch pro football thought that Daltons stats were way overrated by his receivers and he wasn't very good because of his rag arm and bad decision making. Kaep had all kinds of weaknesses. Those are the guys that plateau. You don't think Wilson has weaknesses? I won't reiterate my entire previous post about that (feel free to look at it for more explanation), but my main point was that Wilson appears to have topped out due to his physical stature/limitations. That's the way I pay him. Well, but not better than QBs that earned their big contracts - like Flacco did carrying his team through the playoffs and to a SuperBowl win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tenhigh Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 (edited) Some like yourself say he will never evolve into what Big Ben has evolved into, or what Flacco has evolved into. Others said we cannot expect this growth to continue. Others said you cannot pay him on what his projected arc is but on what others have become already (apparently in their 10th or so seasons). Contacts are based on projection and age as well as on past performance. Wilson has an A+ on all of those. This is my entire point. Andy Dalton and Kaep have clear weaknesses. Most people that watch pro football thought that Daltons stats were way overrated by his receivers and he wasn't very good because of his rag arm and bad decision making. Kaep had all kinds of weaknesses. Those are the guys that plateau. A taller quarterback wouldn't have thrown that terrible Super Bowl interception. Edited July 6, 2015 by Tenhigh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Their career arcs are very similar in their first three years. RW--as has been said a thousand times in this thread--has not accomplished much as a QB. Big Ben is a first ballot hall of famer who will have shattered all of his franchise's QB records, if he hasn't already. Two super bowls in his first three years as a player isn't accomplishing much? Yikes! I don't get why so many folks think Wilson should not be paid like the 'elite' guys. As an employer, it doesn't make a lot of sense to pay someone for their past accomplishments. It's about what that individual would command on the open market, lest a competitor steal them away In the artificial world of the NFL the Hawks' are truly lucky they don't face that dynamic. But I have no doubt that some team would pay Wilson the equivalent of Big Ben's contract if he were free to sell his services to the highest bidder... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Big Cat Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 (edited) Two super bowls in his first three years as a player isn't accomplishing much? Yikes! I don't get why so many folks think Wilson should not be paid like the 'elite' guys. As an employer, it doesn't make a lot of sense to pay someone for their past accomplishments. It's about what that individual would command on the open market, lest a competitor steal them away In the artificial world of the NFL the Hawks' are truly lucky they don't face that dynamic. But I have no doubt that some team would pay Wilson the equivalent of Big Ben's contract if he were free to sell his services to the highest bidder... There seems to be a fundamental disconnect between people making this argument and others--like me--that believe that a number one defense and a top three rush attack had far more to do with those SB appearances than RW. The same should be said about BB in his first few years, which is exactly why their arcs are the same...but only up until three years since BB has played seven years on top of that, and demonstrated an indisputable mastery of the QB position at the NFL level. You may think RW has done this already. I do not. Edited July 6, 2015 by The Big Cat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Two super bowls in his first three years as a player isn't accomplishing much? Yikes! I don't get why so many folks think Wilson should not be paid like the 'elite' guys. As an employer, it doesn't make a lot of sense to pay someone for their past accomplishments. It's about what that individual would command on the open market, lest a competitor steal them away In the artificial world of the NFL the Hawks' are truly lucky they don't face that dynamic. But I have no doubt that some team would pay Wilson the equivalent of Big Ben's contract if he were free to sell his services to the highest bidder... Would you argue the same for Colin kaepernick? A super bowl and a nfccg.... I think many here would've entertained the same argument a year or two ago. Big arm, good runner, played in big games, good record and only going to get better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted July 6, 2015 Share Posted July 6, 2015 Would you argue the same for Colin kaepernick? A super bowl and a nfccg.... I think many here would've entertained the same argument a year or two ago. Big arm, good runner, played in big games, good record and only going to get better? Also, his team got worse, defense had injuries and wasn't as dominant, and he was forced to carry the team. He couldn't do it. That's what the people who say Wilson isn't elite at this point are trying to say. I think Wilson is a better passer but he benefits so much from that great D and running game. It's so much easier to play and not make mistakes when you have a great D to bail you out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts