What a Tuel Posted July 5, 2015 Posted July 5, 2015 Well, leading them to the NFCC win includes getting them to the game. As for the SB--it's is clear that you did not watch the game--or if you did, you are using the final play and pretending the rest of the game didn't happen to make your very weak point. He led them on 4 scoring drives and had them 10 points up on the patriots with onloy 8 minutes to go before his Defense gave up 14 points in the 4th Q....and he then brought them (passes of 31, 11 and 33 yards)80 yards down the field in under 2 minutes to the 1 yard line, where a rookie DB made a great int to cost them the game. No one in the NFL cares how great you might not have been at your alma mater. Does that really need more of an explanation? Also, it's 2 conf championship appearances and 2 SBs in 3 years. What this has to do with EJ on any level other than they are both NFL QBs is a complete mystery. I have not used Wilson's colege record as a measuring stick. I've used everyhthing but, actually. I certainly watched the game. I also saw him not complete a pass until 5 minutes left in the 1st half. If you watched that game you would know that it was a game chock full of 3 and outs sprinkled with blown coverage on a drive or two.
GunnerBill Posted July 5, 2015 Posted July 5, 2015 If our QB had led us to 2 conference championship wins and a SB win in three years and was selected to the Pro Bowl in 2 of those years and had a career rating of 99....wouldn't we have to consider him elite? I wouldn't, no. I think a big part of the problem here is the vague nature of the word "elite." If our Quarterback did that I would be saying we have found our franchise guy but I wouldn't necessarily be calling him elite.
C.Biscuit97 Posted July 5, 2015 Posted July 5, 2015 Really interesting stats from today's Boston Globe: http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/07/04/sizing-afc-east-top-offseason-moves/fH2BRlOah7gBC4J2BrC8mI/story.html "Russell Wilsons rookie contract is set to expire after the 2015 season and multiple media reports indicate the Seattle Seahawks quarterback wants to become the highest-paid signal-caller in the NFL. He has good reason to seek such a deal. Heres how Wilson compares statistically with the quarterbacks with the highest average salaries:" Winning percentage Russell Wilson .750 Aaron Rodgers .680 Ben Roethlisberger .671 Joe Flacco .643 Matt Ryan .600 Drew Brees .582 Cam Newton .492 Winning percentage in the playoffs Wilson .750 Flacco .667 Roethlisberger .667 Brees .545 Rodgers .545 Newton .333 Ryan .200 Average salary Rodgers $22M Roethlisberger $21.85M Newton $21.76M Ryan $21.75M Flacco $20.1M Brees $20M Wilson $749,176 Average passing yards per season Ryan 4,024 Brees 4,002 Flacco 3,647 Newton 3,607 Roethlisberger 3,551 Wilson 3,317 Rodgers 2,858 Average total TDs per season Brees 29 Newton 29 Wilson 28 Ryan 27 Rodgers 25 Roethlisberger 24 Flacco 23 Average turnovers per season Rodgers 9 Wilson 13 Roethlisberger 17 Ryan 17 Brees 18 Flacco 19 Newton 19 Compiled by Michael Grossi All these does is prove that I could replace Wilson with Newton and their winning % improves. The Rodgers' stats are completely flawed by the way. Wilson is a good qb who plays on a great team.
NoSaint Posted July 5, 2015 Posted July 5, 2015 All these does is prove that I could replace Wilson with Newton and their winning % improves. The Rodgers' stats are completely flawed by the way. Wilson is a good qb who plays on a great team. At a glance, they used Rodgers years on the bench in his averages? That's pretty silly.
Kelly the Dog Posted July 5, 2015 Posted July 5, 2015 (edited) So Russell Wilson has one of the best college seasons of all time, falls in the draft ONLY because he is not tall otherwise would have been 2-3 overall, surprises everyone in training camp because his height doesn't matter, beats out a 25m free agent, plays great for three years including the playoffs and SB, and has no weaknesses whatsoever to his game. He wins, passes great, runs great, has a great arm, is accurate, is a great leader, makes good decisions, sees the field, can hit every throw, feels the rush, throws TDs, has great stats, is a great face of the franchise, fans and kids and grandmothers all love him. But he is not very good. Got it. Edited July 5, 2015 by Kelly the Dog
NoSaint Posted July 5, 2015 Posted July 5, 2015 So Russell Wilson has one of the best college seasons of all time, falls in the draft ONLY because he is not tall otherwise would have been 2-3 overall, surprises everyone in training camp because his height doesn't matter, beats out a 25m free agent, plays great for three years including the playoffs and SB, and has no weaknesses whatsoever to his game. He wins, passes great, runs great, has a great arm, is accurate, is a great leader, makes good decisions, sees the field, can hit every throw, feels the rush, throws TDs, has great stats, is a great face of the franchise, fans and kids and grandmothers all love him. But he is not very good. Got it. He's absolutely perfect and I should hope he sleeps with my wife. I should be so lucky.
thebandit27 Posted July 5, 2015 Posted July 5, 2015 So Russell Wilson has one of the best college seasons of all time, falls in the draft ONLY because he is not tall otherwise would have been 2-3 overall, surprises everyone in training camp because his height doesn't matter, beats out a 25m free agent, plays great for three years including the playoffs and SB, and has no weaknesses whatsoever to his game. He wins, passes great, runs great, has a great arm, is accurate, is a great leader, makes good decisions, sees the field, can hit every throw, feels the rush, throws TDs, has great stats, is a great face of the franchise, fans and kids and grandmothers all love him. But he is not very good. Got it. He is indeed very good. He's just not elite IMO...that's a designation reserved for Luck and Rodgers--and probably Brady still as well.
Kelly the Dog Posted July 5, 2015 Posted July 5, 2015 He's absolutely perfect and I should hope he sleeps with my wife. I should be so lucky.Point out a weakness in his game or skill set. I expected more out of you since you're one of few who makes consistently good observations and points. I really don't understand how people can't see how good this guy is. He wins. He makes great plays. He makes great passes. He plays well in big games. He makes great runs. He throws TDs. He doesn't make a lot of glaring mistakes. He leads his team. He makes his teammates better. That's the quintessential quarterback. He is indeed very good. He's just not elite IMO...that's a designation reserved for Luck and Rodgers--and probably Brady still as well. What is not elite about what I posed above to No Saint? Not to mention that he is further ahead after three years than all three of the guys you mentioned.
NoSaint Posted July 5, 2015 Posted July 5, 2015 Point out a weakness in his game or skill set. I expected more out of you since you're one of few who makes consistently good observations and points. I really don't understand how people can't see how good this guy is. He wins. He makes great plays. He makes great passes. He plays well in big games. He makes great runs. He throws TDs. He doesn't make a lot of glaring mistakes. He leads his team. He makes his teammates better. That's the quintessential quarterback. What is not elite about what I posed above to No Saint? Not to mention that he is further ahead after three years than all three of the guys you mentioned. I think he's a very good well rounded player that doesn't have a huge glaring hole in his game. But I don't think any of us are arguing he has a glaring hole, simply that you are rounding up all the 85s to 100 if that makes sense. He's played well on big stages but you present it like he's played perfect. He looks like a great leader but there have been some rumblings of a locker room a bit divided on him at times. And simply, he's never been asked to put a team on his shoulders like the other guys so we still have to see how he responds to it if he's asked to be the centerpiece every week and have to come up with 3-4 more big plays a game too. I'm not, and I don't think bandit is, saying he's anything short of very good with potential to keep expanding his role.
Lurker Posted July 5, 2015 Posted July 5, 2015 Point out a weakness in his game or skill set. Perhaps his wife thinks RW is more handsome as well I don't get it either. He's everything you'd want a 26-year old QB to be, with a ton of invaluable playoff experience to boot. It's surely frustrating for him to see guys on the downside of their careers getting paid for past perfomance while he's still ascending and facing all kinds of arguments as to why he's not worthy of the $$$...
Kelly the Dog Posted July 5, 2015 Posted July 5, 2015 I think he's a very good well rounded player that doesn't have a huge glaring hole in his game. But I don't think any of us are arguing he has a glaring hole, simply that you are rounding up all the 85s to 100 if that makes sense. He's played well on big stages but you present it like he's played perfect. He looks like a great leader but there have been some rumblings of a locker room a bit divided on him at times. And simply, he's never been asked to put a team on his shoulders like the other guys so we still have to see how he responds to it if he's asked to be the centerpiece every week and have to come up with 3-4 more big plays a game too. I'm not, and I don't think bandit is, saying he's anything short of very good with potential to keep expanding his role. I understand what you are saying but I think you are doing what you are accusing me of doing. I said he has a great arm and is a great runner, etc. That is not in any way saying he is perfect or "100" or he doesn't make mistakes. IMO it's inarguable he has a great arm (meaning arm strength and ability to make all the throws). He has an absolute cannon. It's inarguable he's a great runner, he's one of the two very best in the league. It's inarguable he's a winner. Those are not 85 ratings. How can you say as a runner or winner he is an 85? That's pretty good. It's 90-95. The very top of the league. I think he is great. You and others think he is very good. No one is right or wrong in that stance, it's an opinion. You may be closer to the truth, although it cannot be measured, than I am. But when you list ALL of the qualities of a "great" quarterback, it's hard to argue against anything he does. In every single measurement and metric. And he's still very young.
NoSaint Posted July 5, 2015 Posted July 5, 2015 Perhaps his wife thinks RW is more handsome as well I don't get it either. He's everything you'd want a 26-year old QB to be, with a ton of invaluable playoff experience to boot. It's surely frustrating for him to see guys on the downside of their careers getting paid for past perfomance while he's still ascending and facing all kinds of arguments as to why he's not worthy of the $$$... I've earlier said he'd be worth that pay for a team like ours. At this point I'm waxing on if he makes Cleveland or Jacksonville an instant SB contender like I think an ELITE qb does for a franchise.
GunnerBill Posted July 5, 2015 Posted July 5, 2015 I think he's a very good well rounded player that doesn't have a huge glaring hole in his game. But I don't think any of us are arguing he has a glaring hole, simply that you are rounding up all the 85s to 100 if that makes sense. He's played well on big stages but you present it like he's played perfect. He looks like a great leader but there have been some rumblings of a locker room a bit divided on him at times. And simply, he's never been asked to put a team on his shoulders like the other guys so we still have to see how he responds to it if he's asked to be the centerpiece every week and have to come up with 3-4 more big plays a game too. I'm not, and I don't think bandit is, saying he's anything short of very good with potential to keep expanding his role. I am with you and Bandit. I would also add that the elite ones I always feel can blow a team off the field in a half of NFL football. Rodgers, Brady, Manning, Brees have all had periods in their careers where they were doing that 5 or 6 times a season. I know the Seahawks don't really ask him to do that but I don't feel comfortable simply projecting that he could if asked.
thebandit27 Posted July 5, 2015 Posted July 5, 2015 What is not elite about what I posed above to No Saint? Not to mention that he is further ahead after three years than all three of the guys you mentioned. I think you're assuming that "not elite" means I'm knocking him; that's not the case at all. I reserve the definition for the best of the best, and I simply believe that Luck and Rodgers are a tier above everyone else at this point (aside from Brady based on his final 10 games plus playoffs). I say that based on how often I've seen the other three go out and win games when all else around them fails (defense, running game, etc). Wilson hasn't done that nearly as often. It's worth noting that he's arguably not even the focal point of Seattle's offensive game plan. Again, I'm in no way marginalizing Wilson, his ability, or his contribution to Seattle and their success. I just think he's not in the absolute top tier of QBs in the game. No shame in that--only 2 or 3 guys are.
Wayne Cubed Posted July 5, 2015 Posted July 5, 2015 I understand what you are saying but I think you are doing what you are accusing me of doing. I said he has a great arm and is a great runner, etc. That is not in any way saying he is perfect or "100" or he doesn't make mistakes. IMO it's inarguable he has a great arm (meaning arm strength and ability to make all the throws). He has an absolute cannon. It's inarguable he's a great runner, he's one of the two very best in the league. It's inarguable he's a winner. Those are not 85 ratings. How can you say as a runner or winner he is an 85? That's pretty good. It's 90-95. The very top of the league. I think he is great. You and others think he is very good. No one is right or wrong in that stance, it's an opinion. You may be closer to the truth, although it cannot be measured, than I am. But when you list ALL of the qualities of a "great" quarterback, it's hard to argue against anything he does. In every single measurement and metric. And he's still very young. If he is so great, why doesn't he carry the offense more in the passing? Why don't the Seahawks throw more? There 454 passing attempts were last in the NFL. The Seahawks finished 27th in passing yards and 22nd in passing TDs. I know those are just stats but none of those come close to the "great" QBs. And to save the discussion going this route, all the truly great QBs make average WRs better. Brady does/did it. Rogers does/did it.
Kelly the Dog Posted July 5, 2015 Posted July 5, 2015 I think you're assuming that "not elite" means I'm knocking him; that's not the case at all. I reserve the definition for the best of the best, and I simply believe that Luck and Rodgers are a tier above everyone else at this point (aside from Brady based on his final 10 games plus playoffs). I say that based on how often I've seen the other three go out and win games when all else around them fails (defense, running game, etc). Wilson hasn't done that nearly as often. It's worth noting that he's arguably not even the focal point of Seattle's offensive game plan. Again, I'm in no way marginalizing Wilson, his ability, or his contribution to Seattle and their success. I just think he's not in the absolute top tier of QBs in the game. No shame in that--only 2 or 3 guys are. A reasonable response as you always give. But it didn't answer my question. Was is not "elite" about his arm? His running ability? His winning? His leadership. His reading of defenses. His TD throwing. His ability to sense pressure. What it comes down to I guess is the criticism that he's not asked to do it means one thing to people who think he is "great" and another thing to people who think he is "very good." To me, he shouldn't at all be punished for that, he's proven he can do it and there is nothing to think he cannot. To others, the fact he has a great defense and running game puts some doubt into it, enough not to elevate very good to great. It's understandable. It's an interesting discussion. There is no right or wrong, it's opinions. If he is so great, why doesn't he carry the offense more in the passing? Why don't the Seahawks throw more? There 454 passing attempts were last in the NFL. The Seahawks finished 27th in passing yards and 22nd in passing TDs. I know those are just stats but none of those come close to the "great" QBs. And to save the discussion going this route, all the truly great QBs make average WRs better. Brady does/did it. Rogers does/did it. Because he has crappy receivers and tight ends and what they were doing was working extraordinarily well. And his stats are great.
Wayne Cubed Posted July 5, 2015 Posted July 5, 2015 A reasonable response as you always give. But it didn't answer my question. Was is not "elite" about his arm? His running ability? His winning? His leadership. His reading of defenses. His TD throwing. His ability to sense pressure. What it comes down to I guess is the criticism that he's not asked to do it means one thing to people who think he is "great" and another thing to people who think he is "very good." To me, he shouldn't at all be punished for that, he's proven he can do it and there is nothing to think he cannot. To others, the fact he has a great defense and running game puts some doubt into it, enough not to elevate very good to great. It's understandable. It's an interesting discussion. There is no right or wrong, it's opinions. Because he has crappy receivers and tight ends and what they were doing was working extraordinarily well. And his stats are great. His stats are great? Last season he wasn't top 10 for passes completed. He wasn't top 10 for yards. He wasn't top 10 for TDs. He wasn't top 10 for completion percentage. He was 10th for passer rating and 7th for yards/attempt. Hardly great. I'm not saying he isn't good, I don't think anyone is. It's just very hard to judge how good/great he is with the defense and running game. It's never been easier to pass in the NFL and with this defense why not pass and put up large chunks of points, then sit back on the running game and defense?
Kelly the Dog Posted July 5, 2015 Posted July 5, 2015 His stats are great? Last season he wasn't top 10 for passes completed. He wasn't top 10 for yards. He wasn't top 10 for TDs. He wasn't top 10 for completion percentage. He was 10th for passer rating and 7th for yards/attempt. Hardly great. I'm not saying he isn't good, I don't think anyone is. It's just very hard to judge how good/great he is with the defense and running game. It's never been easier to pass in the NFL and with this defense why not pass and put up large chunks of points, then sit back on the running game and defense? He's also a great runner. When you add in the fact he rushed for 850 or so yards and 6 TDs, yes, his stats are great. You guys are really underestimating the totality of his play and putting too much onto just passing stats. He's great because of his total game, and he's unique that way. He was 16th in the entire league in rushing, and averaged 7.2 yards a carry. He's fifth all time in playoff passing stats, just ahead of Joe Montana.
thebandit27 Posted July 5, 2015 Posted July 5, 2015 A reasonable response as you always give. But it didn't answer my question. Was is not "elite" about his arm? His running ability? His winning? His leadership. His reading of defenses. His TD throwing. His ability to sense pressure. What it comes down to I guess is the criticism that he's not asked to do it means one thing to people who think he is "great" and another thing to people who think he is "very good." To me, he shouldn't at all be punished for that, he's proven he can do it and there is nothing to think he cannot. To others, the fact he has a great defense and running game puts some doubt into it, enough not to elevate very good to great. It's understandable. It's an interesting discussion. There is no right or wrong, it's opinions. Because he has crappy receivers and tight ends and what they were doing was working extraordinarily well. And his stats are great. I think that you just cut to the core of why this is such an intriguing discussion: without Wilson having to carry his team, it'll be hard to assess whether or not he could. I guess the only concrete answer I can give you as far as what's not elite is passing production (assuming I were trying to poke holes in his game). Oh, and I reserve the right to change my opinion on his "elite status" based on what he does this year. He really is a fine player, and a lot of fun to watch.
NoSaint Posted July 5, 2015 Posted July 5, 2015 I think that you just cut to the core of why this is such an intriguing discussion: without Wilson having to carry his team, it'll be hard to assess whether or not he could. I guess the only concrete answer I can give you as far as what's not elite is passing production (assuming I were trying to poke holes in his game). Oh, and I reserve the right to change my opinion on his "elite status" based on what he does this year. He really is a fine player, and a lot of fun to watch. I also think there's something to be said in that KTD is saying he has ELITE arm and elite legs and elite decision making and elite leadership and.... I'm curious KTD, if pressed, do you think any of those are actually just very good or are all in the top 3-4 in the entire league?
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