Russell Wilson and the Seahawks negotiations (update:signed)

[Alphadawg7]

All of that is very true. But he doesn't have to carry the team. He rarely plays from behind. As a result, he isn't put into bad spots and forced to throw.

 

The guy is good. I think the debate is how good. Personally, I don't think he is a guy that can carry a bad team and put them over the top. He has "won" games against Brees with less than 100 yards passing and "won" a game with 4 ints against Rodgers.

 

He is good but he is in the perfect situation. It would be stupid for Seattle or him to break up that partnership. But he isn't elite. His team is.

 

I hear what you are saying, but the problem is Seattle wasnt very good before him and took a big leap forward, including 2 SB trips with him. Pretty hard to argue that he didn't make a huge impact on that team.

 

What he has done in 3 seasons is pretty remarkable...more so when you factor in how much Seattle runs. He's never had less than 26 total TDs in his first 3 seasons and never had more than 10 INTs in a season (and that was his rookie year when he had 10). On top of all that, he's had a pretty marginal stable of weapons to throw to. And again, we are literally talking about a kids first 3 years in the league at the most difficult position in all of professional team sports.

 

This kid is only getting better...his weapons are now getting better. And he is a TRUE dual threat in this league as he is a good passer and dangerous running. He's a special QB IMO and I would lock him up if I was in Seattle.

[WotAGuy]

From a player perspective what are they playing for any longer. You better be sure your giving it to a player with character, respect, and pride or you may end up with a player like Haynesworth who laid down in the feeble position.

Where the hell is that TBDism thread?

[Augie]

I'm not signing up for a pay cut. Count me in on maximizing your compensation.

Yep, these guys have varying degrees of employability after their playing days. Make it while you can and hope it's enough for a lifetime. Too many guys wind up broke before a decade passes. If you're Peyton Manning, chase the ring. Most guys need to chase the buck.

[Alphadawg7]

You must have missed the pundits questioning after not breaking 160 yards in any September game, having 2 games at about 50%, coming off a 3 int game to close the month. It wouldn't have been crazy for most coaches to look back to flynn. Heck we just watched it happen here last year. So yea, out of the gate he got a little bit of leash that not all 3rd rounders with a well paid vet backup would. It wasn't until mid season that he hit his stride.

 

He had 30 TD's his rookie year to only 10 ints. That kind of performance doesn't require a leash. And all rookie QBs get some sort of leash for growing pains.

 

But lets look at his rookie year...he started the season 2-1 with huge wins against Dallas and GB while throwing 4TDs to 1 INT. It was his fourth game where he had a bump in the road and threw 3 picks...when you start 2-1 and beat 2 teams expected to contend for the SB while putting up a 4:1 TD:INT ratio, you don't just get yanked. No team yanks their rookie QB after having 1 poor game in his first 4 starts.

 

And the kid only had 2 bad games the whole year...that game and the SF game. Again, he was not on a leash because he didn't play poorly enough to be on a leash. The kid rose from 3rd stringer to starter in training camp beating out 2 other guys and earning the job. Then he continued to keep it on the field...

Edited June 29, 2015 by Alphadawg7

[NoSaint]

 

There was never a time where the coaches had to decide if they should pull him early because at no point was he flat our sucking. He wont that job right in Training Camp and never let go of it because he never struggled. He played well enough right from the start of his career for the coaches to hand him the job and never look back. So not sure why you say he had a longer leash, we don't really know what kind of leash he had because he earned the job and then always played good enough to keep it without question.

Maybe you missed the Green Bay game live where he was 10-21 for 130 yards and 2 tds, including the fail Mary.

 

His prior 9-20 for 106 yards and 7 total offensive points wasn't really one you point to as a successful day.

 

Week 1 was 18 -34 for 153 yards a td and a pick.

 

So yea, his week four 3 int game could've had him on thin ice with many coaches. He wasn't a top pick and he had a vet signed to start behind him.

 

The season got much better midway through. If I recall it was after the bye when they changed up the offense and things clicked.

Edited June 29, 2015 by NoSaint

[Kelly the Dog]

 

He had 30 TD's his rookie year to only 10 ints. That kind of performance doesn't require a leash. And all rookie QBs get some sort of leash for growing pains.

 

But lets look at his rookie year...he started the season 2-1 with huge wins against Dallas and GB while throwing 4TDs to 1 INT. It was his fourth game where he had a bump in the road and threw 3 picks...when you start 2-1 and beat 2 teams expected to contend for the SB while putting up a 4:1 TD:INT ratio, you don't just get yanked. No team yanks their rookie QB after having 1 poor game in his first 4 starts.

 

And the kid only had 2 bad games the whole year...that game and the SF game. Again, he was not on a leash because he didn't play poorly enough to be on a leash. The kid rose from 3rd stringer to starter in training camp beating out 2 other guys and earning the job. Then he continued to keep it on the field...

Not to mention that his height was the only thing that stopped him from being the #2 or #3 overall pick. Every team in the league thought his height would hurt him in the NFL to a large degree, it was just a matter of how much it would hurt him. That's why and the only reason why he fell to the third round. He excelled at EVERYTHING else.

 

So as soon as Carroll realized after OTAs and minicamp and the beginning of training camp that everyone including himself was wrong, and his height didn't affect him one bit (he could see lanes, he could get passes over the O and D linemen, he wasn't getting passes blocked, he could see the whole field, etc, he probably knew right then that Willson was going to be a superstar. So even if he started slow he likely was never going to bench him.

[Alphadawg7]

Maybe you missed the Green Bay game live where he was 10-21 for 130 yards and 2 tds, including the fail Mary.

 

His prior 9-20 for 106 yards and 7 total offensive points wasn't really one you point to as a successful day.

 

Week 1 was 18 -34 for 153 yards a td and a pick.

 

So yea, his week four 3 int game could've had him on thin ice with many coaches. He wasn't a top pick and he had a vet signed to start behind him.

 

The season got much better midway through. If I recall it was after the bye when they changed up the offense and things clicked.

 

In his first 3 starts he was 2-1 with victories over Dallas and Green Bay with 4TDS and 1int. He only had 3 games the whole rookie year with under an 82 rating, in fact he only had 4 total games with a QB rating under 88 for that matter his entire rookie season, and one of those was still a respectable 82.

 

I don't know any coach in the league that after 3 games into a ROOKIES career, especially at the most difficult position in all of team sports to learn let alone master, that would say this kid is about to get the hook because he's 2-1 with a 4 to 1 TD:INT ratio.

 

And you forget, he WON the starting job over the other guys...he wasnt a guy they forced in there, he flat out beat the other guys out. So again, the kid IMO earned his spot and earned his right to keep it and thats why he wasnt on a leash.

 

As a rookie:

NFL 4th best rated passer using QB Raing (one of only 4 guys over 100)

NFL 6th best rated passer using QBR metrix (ahead of guys like Brees, Big Ben, Luck, Eli, Romo, etc)

30 Total TDs

10 INTs

11-5 record

102.4 Playoff QB Rating

 

Thats why the kid wasnt on a short leash. He put up one of the best rookie seasons by a QB in NFL history.

[LB3]

His rookie year playoff performance in the loss to Atlanta was pretty amazing. He does whatever is needed when it's needed. Nearly every QB that has won the Super Bowl in recent years has been signed to the highest contract at some point. He should get the contract.

 

Rodgers

Brees

Eli

Flacco

 

IMO, if we traded for Russell and had to give up two great defenders (like Marcel and Hughes) and picks, we would still win the Super Bowl the next two years.

Edited June 29, 2015 by LBSeeBallLBGetBall

[NoSaint]

 

In his first 3 starts he was 2-1 with victories over Dallas and Green Bay with 4TDS and 1int. He only had 3 games the whole rookie year with under an 82 rating, in fact he only had 4 total games with a QB rating under 88 for that matter his entire rookie season, and one of those was still a respectable 82.

 

I don't know any coach in the league that after 3 games into a ROOKIES career, especially at the most difficult position in all of team sports to learn let alone master, that would say this kid is about to get the hook because he's 2-1 with a 4 to 1 TD:INT ratio.

 

And you forget, he WON the starting job over the other guys...he wasnt a guy they forced in there, he flat out beat the other guys out. So again, the kid IMO earned his spot and earned his right to keep it and thats why he wasnt on a leash.

 

As a rookie:

NFL 4th best rated passer using QB Raing (one of only 4 guys over 100)

NFL 6th best rated passer using QBR metrix (ahead of guys like Brees, Big Ben, Luck, Eli, Romo, etc)

30 Total TDs

10 INTs

11-5 record

102.4 Playoff QB Rating

 

Thats why the kid wasnt on a short leash. He put up one of the best rookie seasons by a QB in NFL history.

No ones arguing he had a bad season here. But it's hard to argue he hit the ground at that running pace.

 

2-1 and his defense held the opponent to 7 and 12 points in the two wins with Wilson getting 150 and 130 yards (with 24 being the fail Mary to seal the second win). A nationally televised game that had him 9-20 for 106 yards prior to the final play which could've easily put him 9-21 with an interception and a 1-2 record.

 

With some questions swirling after that lackluster performance which was the first time many watched him about whether he could waste a great defense... week four had 3 ints and a month high 160 yards.

 

Honestly, it's bizarre to me that you are trying to argue he didn't stumble at all out if the gate. Love the guy all you want- I think he's a very good player. But your allowed to admit he hasn't been perfect every week forever. He had a bad month. that there was chatter regarding whether he was the right guy up til mid season is accurate. After the bye he went on an absolute tear and never looked back.

 

It feels like you are emotionally invested in defending the guy.

[NoSaint]

I just double checked the Green Bay game summary just to make sure I wasn't crazy on Wilson not looking good all night.... Rodgers was sacked 8 times in the first half, which I forgot how beastly the defense was that day. Totally forgot that it got that out of control.

 

On the Wilson front - he had 80something yards before the final drive and 41 of those on 1 play. Was a long night for both qbs.

[Kelly the Dog]

I just double checked the Green Bay game summary just to make sure I wasn't crazy on Wilson not looking good all night.... Rodgers was sacked 8 times in the first half, which I forgot how beastly the defense was that day. Totally forgot that it got that out of control.

 

On the Wilson front - he had 80something yards before the final drive and 41 of those on 1 play. Was a long night for both qbs.

Stats are really only part of Wilson's game and effectiveness though. He's got a lot of Big Ben in him. He makes tremendous 7 yard plays on 3rd and 6 when two guys seem to have him in their grasp that are just registered as 7 yard runs or passes. I'm not talking about that GB game, I have no idea what happened in it. I'll admit I'm a fanboy but he's just a tremendous player IMO and a lot of people discredit some of his talent and plays because he doesn't put up huge stats. He's a great player, and that is why he is going to sign a contract as the highest paid player in the game.

[NoSaint]

Stats are really only part of Wilson's game and effectiveness though. He's got a lot of Big Ben in him. He makes tremendous 7 yard plays on 3rd and 6 when two guys seem to have him in their grasp that are just registered as 7 yard runs or passes. I'm not talking about that GB game, I have no idea what happened in it. I'll admit I'm a fanboy but he's just a tremendous player IMO and a lot of people discredit some of his talent and plays because he doesn't put up huge stats. He's a great player, and that is why he is going to sign a contract as the highest paid player in the game.

I don't disagree that he's very good and at the most important position in sports. I think I probably put him closer to 10 or so than 1.

 

Which is still a huge compliment to the guy.

[Kelly the Dog]

I don't disagree that he's very good and at the most important position in sports. I think I probably put him closer to 10 or so than 1.

 

Which is still a huge compliment to the guy.

There are a lot of ways to look at it. I think he is better than Flacco, Eli, Rivers, that level. If I were just taking a QB now, and considering age (how many years you would have him), I would only rather have Rodgers and Luck. Brady and Manning may be better right now but do you want Brady for three years or Wilson for 13? That's why he deserves to be the highest paid player in the league. When Luck is up, he will be the highest.

[Big C]

Yep, these guys have varying degrees of employability after their playing days. Make it while you can and hope it's enough for a lifetime. Too many guys wind up broke before a decade passes. If you're Peyton Manning, chase the ring. Most guys need to chase the buck.

If you can't live a whole life on a typical starters salary, you are failing horribly at life.

[Kelly the Dog]

If you can't live a whole life on a typical starters salary, you are failing horribly at life.

Not when, say, your mother demands $1m for raising you like Philip Buchanon's did.

[Big C]

Not when, say, your mother demands $1m for raising you like Philip Buchanon's did.

OK, fine. But still, we are talking about $20 or so with Wilson. He can afford to make a little less for the good of his team is all I'm saying.

[papazoid]

$25 mil/yr

 

6 yr / $150 mil / $75 guaranteed

[GunnerBill]

There are a lot of ways to look at it. I think he is better than Flacco, Eli, Rivers, that level. If I were just taking a QB now, and considering age (how many years you would have him), I would only rather have Rodgers and Luck. Brady and Manning may be better right now but do you want Brady for three years or Wilson for 13? That's why he deserves to be the highest paid player in the league. When Luck is up, he will be the highest.

 

You think he is better than Rivers? Really? Wow. I don't see that I am sorry. Better than Eli, yes I'd go along with and I wouldn't pick an argument over better than Flacco either (Although I rate Flacco very highly - probably higher than most) but Philip Rivers is a top 6 Quarterback in this league and has been for a long time IMO. I just cannot put Wilson there. The kid is a special player, but put in Rivers' situation in recent years with no real defense and no run game of any note I can't believe that Wilson would put up Rivers like numbers.

 

As for the improvement from 7-9 in 2011 to 11-5 in 2012..... Well they went from having bottom 5 in the league Quarterback play to having top 12 Quarterback play....I'd say that added at least a couple of wins to the win total (without Wilson needing to be elite to do so) and they drafted two fellas by the names of Irvin and Wagner in the first two rounds who made a contribution too.

[Mr. WEO]

All of that is very true. But he doesn't have to carry the team. He rarely plays from behind. As a result, he isn't put into bad spots and forced to throw.

 

The guy is good. I think the debate is how good. Personally, I don't think he is a guy that can carry a bad team and put them over the top. He has "won" games against Brees with less than 100 yards passing and "won" a game with 4 ints against Rodgers.

 

He is good but he is in the perfect situation. It would be stupid for Seattle or him to break up that partnership. But he isn't elite. His team is.

 

 

He is elite. This is too easy.

 

Because his team doesn't need to have him throw 50 times a game doesn't take away from his elite performance. He is a play creator--you should watch him. He's got excellent mobility, vision and is calm out of the pocket. He's extremely intelligent and knows where everyone is.

 

As for never playing from behind, he has 10 4th Q comebacks in only 3 years--more than Aaron Rodgers, Andrew Luck. He is also ahead of Rodgers, Luck in game winning drives----for their careers.

[Gugny]

Where the hell is that TBDism thread?

 

Ask Beerball ...