EJ vs Derek Carr - perception

[3rdand12]

Coaching. its really all about coaching the QB to be efficient.

 

Marroone f'd EJ hard ." Here ya go Jr. we are not going to protect you. so learn fast.

 

and then even Orton figured it out.

Lets see if EJ can nut up and give him some middle of the road back up to tide us over. just in case.
thats all we got kids.

protect the hell out of the pocket , teach EJ how to let it collapse . and run the snot out of the ball.
maybe just maybe..

[What a Tuel]

If you want to rally behind mediocrity then that's fine. Just because I can't give you a player available who is guarenteed to be better than EJ doesnt mean the evaluation of him not being any good is false.

 

I want him to be great but I won't ignore his on field production just so his feelings don't get hurt. Give me a break.

The point is that we don't have a suitable alternative and screaming that he sucks and is worthless is ridiculous.

 

Some people might argue that this type of criticism might motivate him to step up, but I disagree. It's verbally abusive and I don't believe it helps a thing.

 

When a suitable replacement arrives or is available and the bills don't start or pursue that person, we can complain about the front office, but that savior qb isn't out there.

 

My take on the whole situation is that I know our defense is on a timer but we have a developmental qb and we just have to deal with that, and give him all the tools he needs to get better. It is funny how we complain and agree about the poor o line play, which led to worse than normal rb play, lack of a big tight end, and lack of a decent coaching staff. All of that directly impact qb play as well.

 

Since our savior qb isn't here or developed yet, let's take advantage of our 100 million dollars in cap savings, and improve all of those areas. I bet we see an improvement in qb play when we do.

Edited February 18, 2015 by What a Tuel

[FireChan]

The point is that we don't have a suitable alternative and screaming that he sucks and is worthless is ridiculous.

 

Some people might argue that this type of criticism might motivate him to step up, but I disagree. It's verbally abusive and I don't believe it helps a thing.

 

When a suitable replacement arrives or is available and the bills don't start or pursue that person, we can complain about the front office, but that savior qb isn't out there.

 

My take on the whole situation is that I know our defense is on a timer but we have a developmental qb and we just have to deal with that, and give him all the tools he needs to get better. It is funny how we complain and agree about the poor o line play, which led to worse than normal rb play, lack of a big tight end, and lack of a decent coaching staff. All of that directly impact qb play as well.

 

Since our savior qb isn't here or developed yet, let's take advantage of our 100 million dollars in cap savings, and improve all of those areas. I bet we see an improvement in qb play when we do.

If EJ is checking message boards, he's already done.

 

All we need to do is get a top 5 defense, a dynamic TE, a great O-line and a great running game, with some dynamic WR's and our QB will be okay? Sounds good!

Edited February 18, 2015 by FireChan

[What a Tuel]

If EJ is checking message boards, he's already done.

 

All we need to do is get a top 5 defense, a dynamic TE, a great O-line and a great running game, with some dynamic WR's and our QB will be okay? Sounds good!

OK how about more than 1 out of 5 on offense?

 

Also it's not about checking message boards and you know it.

Edited February 18, 2015 by What a Tuel

[The Frankish Reich]

There's also absolutely no objective reason to prefer EJ over his FSU predecessor, Christian Ponder. Yes, Ponder proved you can make the playoffs with a mediocre QB. He also proved that precisely no one will ever be satisfied with that.

[FireChan]

OK how about more than 1 out of 4 on offense?

 

Also it's not about checking message boards and you know it.

I don't tweet at EJ, or boo at him at games. Unless he has ESP, he has no idea how I feel about him.

 

Sure. We'll get right on that. It's easy to do. There's always a Gronk and a All-Pro guard just sitting around.

[What a Tuel]

I don't tweet at EJ, or boo at him at games. Unless he has ESP, he has no idea how I feel about him.

 

Sure. We'll get right on that. It's easy to do. There's always a Gronk and a All-Pro guard just sitting around.

....about as common as an all pro qb?

[FireChan]

....about as common as an all pro qb?

Why not look for both then?

[What a Tuel]

Why not look for both then?

I believe the front office is. There certainly aren't any all pros available. I also believe most of the available qbs would suffer from our offensive deficiencies as manuel and orton did.

Edited February 18, 2015 by What a Tuel

[Formerly Allan in MD]

Is there a point to this thread? Carr shows potential to become a franchise quarterback. What has EJ shown? The bottom line is that EJ is not an accurate passer and has demonstrated very little feel for the game. If that's what we want in a starting quarterback, even one with significant game time, then go ahead and make all the comparisons you want.

[Rob's House]

The truth of the matter is that a large portion of the fanbase is a major part of the problems with the QB position. A portion of the fans expect a hall of fame looking QB coming right out of college, they have no patience left to see the position developed. Then as the rookie in question continues to grow through making mistakes, the group gets larger which in turn makes the resistance against the QB larger which translates into more pressure on the rook as well as confidence issues when said things dont work out straight away, which then leads to the benching/cutting of said rook. And then the circle restarts, for another 15 years?

If by "hall of fame" you mean roughly average and by "rookie" you mean second year player then you may have a point. Otherwise, I'm not sure what the hell you're talking about.

[Uffalo Ills]

The perception of Derek Carr is that he is a franchise QB in the making in Oakland, and the Raiders should build around him. The perception of EJ is he is a bust in the making in Buffalo and the Bills should replace him. I saw this tweet and it made me think that while most of us have reservations about EJ it doesn't make much sense to give up on him this early.

 

@ChrisTrapasso: Reminder: #Bills QB EJ Manuel has played fewer games than Derek Carr. Manuel better comp %, TD %, YPA, QB rating. Carr better sack %, INT %

 

The expectations around these two QBs were very different. The Raiders were rebuilding and not expected to win many games. There wasn't pressure on Carr to win. He wasn't asked to play not to lose, IMO. He didn't win his first game until November. He won 3 games total out of 16. None on the road.

 

EJ's situation called for him to win now. He was not looked at as a developing player he was looked at immediately as the guy holding the team back because he was... Developing. Not saying that's wrong but the timing was not in his favor like it was for Guys like Carr and Bortles. They are not expected to be great right away because their teams are rebuilding. The Bills were already built. And coaches and GMs felt their jobs were on the line with new ownership. They didn't have time for a rookie QB.

 

I wonder if roles were reversed - and EJ was drafted last year by Oakland and Carr by Buffalo, would the perceptions of the two players be the same? This is a bad time to give up on a young QB who has won games for you, because of the lack of obvious better options out there to replace him. I may be in the minority but I think this is a new start for EJ that he needed. If he can't win in this new system, it can be time to pull the plug. I don't know if Marrone's system was the best for him. He wasn't invested in developing EJ. I understand why they put Orton in when they did and agreed with the move at the time. But EJ is young and has upside. I feel if the offense was tailored more to his strengths he could win with this team. I think Roman is the right guy.

I dont know... Carr's poise really impressed me. Its something EJ lacked.

Also Carr came from round2, whereas EJ was a top 20 pick. He was definitely overdrafted, leading to some of his "bust" perception.

 

great post by the way.

[RuntheDamnBall]

If you want to rally behind mediocrity then that's fine. Just because I can't give you a player available who is guarenteed to be better than EJ doesnt mean the evaluation of him not being any good is false.

 

I want him to be great but I won't ignore his on field production just so his feelings don't get hurt. Give me a break.

To not "Ignore his on-field production" is not equivalent to making it a hostile place for your own players in the manner that the poster was describing. Criticism is welcome. Crusading about it, booing your own guys, making gutless statements on Twitter that you'd never make to his face, that's all bush league. I abhor that stuff in any fan, especially one that roots for the same team as me.

[FireChan]

To not "Ignore his on-field production" is not equivalent to making it a hostile place for your own players in the manner that the poster was describing. Criticism is welcome. Crusading about it, booing your own guys, making gutless statements on Twitter that you'd never make to his face, that's all bush league. I abhor that stuff in any fan, especially one that roots for the same team as me.

Players cannot see crusading. Agree with the other two though, I'll always cheer on a guy in the Bills Uni, even if he sucks.

[QCity]

I am not suggesting that we got as far as babying any young QB either whether that is EJ, a mid round guy this year or a high draft pick next year.... but whilst this fan base continues to obsess over the position in the way that we do we are creating a climate where it is even more difficult for a young guy to succeed and where nothing short of a pro-bowl rookie year will do. There are not many Andrew Lucks, there aren't even many Russell Wilsons.... eventually we have to take the Giants approach with Eli or the Chiefs approach with Smith or what the Dolphins have tried with Tannehill and say it might be 2 or even more seasons of up and down inconsistent play before 'our guy' develops the consistency to be considered a franchise guy. EJ might not be the guy to invest that patience in, Derek Carr might or might not prove to be that in Oakland.... but I don't think any normal rookie would be given a chance by this fanbase anymore.... nothing but excellence on day 1 is going to be tolerated.... it is totally unrealistic.

 

I think you are seeing something completely different than I am. I don't see a fan base that expects a rookie QB to have a Pro Bowl season. I see a fan base that would be thrilled if they thought EJ could someday be considered an "average" QB ranked somewhere between 15-16 in the league. Not in his first year even -- just an average game manager QB down the road.

[GunnerBill]

 

I think you are seeing something completely different than I am. I don't see a fan base that expects a rookie QB to have a Pro Bowl season. I see a fan base that would be thrilled if they thought EJ could someday be considered an "average" QB ranked somewhere between 15-16 in the league. Not in his first year even -- just an average game manager QB down the road.

 

But for people to say that they knew after his rookie season that he couldn't be some day down the road mature into an average Quarterback is in my view based on subjective style points, because based just on the objective evidence it was very possible. But this isn't to defend EJ.... I was on board with him starting last year but I like everyone else was alarmed by a training camp that looked like regression and by the poor performances against San Diego and especially Houston.

 

I don't know that you are definitely going to find someone who comes in and year 1 has numbers that massively outshine EJ's. Of the 8 Quarterbacks drafted in 2013 and 2014 that have started games (EJ, Geno, Glennon, Bortles, Manziel, Bridgewater, Carr, Mettenberger) only Bridgewater's numbers are demonstrably better. I know people will say "oh they are two weak Quarterback classes" but it goes back to disucssions we are having elsewhere, colleges are not producing pro-ready prospects they are producing projects and this fanbase is going to have to accept as painful as I know it is that if we are going to find our Quarterback of the future in the draft the chances are he will be at best below average out of the gate and we will have to be patient. I repeat - I am not making an impassioned argument for patience in EJ... I'm just saying at some point it is going to require patience. I think it will with Carr in Oakland too.

[FireChan]

 

But for people to say that they knew after his rookie season that he couldn't be some day down the road mature into an average Quarterback is in my view based on subjective style points, because based just on the objective evidence it was very possible. But this isn't to defend EJ.... I was on board with him starting last year but I like everyone else was alarmed by a training camp that looked like regression and by the poor performances against San Diego and especially Houston.

 

I don't know that you are definitely going to find someone who comes in and year 1 has numbers that massively outshine EJ's. Of the 8 Quarterbacks drafted in 2013 and 2014 that have started games (EJ, Geno, Glennon, Bortles, Manziel, Bridgewater, Carr, Mettenberger) only Bridgewater's numbers are demonstrably better. I know people will say "oh they are two weak Quarterback classes" but it goes back to disucssions we are having elsewhere, colleges are not producing pro-ready prospects they are producing projects and this fanbase is going to have to accept as painful as I know it is that if we are going to find our Quarterback of the future in the draft the chances are he will be at best below average out of the gate and we will have to be patient. I repeat - I am not making an impassioned argument for patience in EJ... I'm just saying at some point it is going to require patience. I think it will with Carr in Oakland too.

Why do we keep mentioning his rookie year? No one is pointing to that. Let's talk about him being afraid to throw passes to his WR's in his second year. That's more pertinent.

[GunnerBill]

Why do we keep mentioning his rookie year? No one is pointing to that. Let's talk about him being afraid to throw passes to his WR's in his second year. That's more pertinent.

 

And I don't disagree with that but this thread wasn't, as I understood it about EJ vs Derek Carr it was about the differences in perception. What I am arguing and have tried to articulate a couple of times but maybe I am not doing very well is that the perception after EJ's rookie year was already a "hasn't shown enough" whereas the perception of a similar rookie year, that statistically is actually worse, from Carr is "shown some flashes of franchise ability." My argument from that base is not "EJ deserves another shot" as you say he showed no development into year 2 but rather that part of the problem here is that we have been so starved of Quarterback success for so long that I think our perception of any rookie coming in who didn't immediately light it up would be "move on who is next?" I think the chances now of EJ being our guy are slim so it is more a pondering about the expectations for our next rookie if that is where we do indeed end up this year or next year or the year after that.

[billstein22]

Sometimes I wonder if those who think EJ Manuel might be the answer have ever watched any of his games. I realize that's a cliche put down, but I'm serious. Every time he throws the ball it's a roller coaster. Not just because he's so insanely inaccurate on difficult throws, but on the easy ones as well. Over the first few games of the season, Watkins and Woods both almost got destroyed on multiple occasions this year while making the most athletic plays possible to catch what should've been routine passes. Even at his most impressive moments (e.g., the comeback vs. Carolina, the season opener against Chicago) he was making throws that any QB in the league could've made. Can a QB really make substantial improvements to his accuracy at the professional level? I highly doubt it.

 

And sadly, the numbers back these observations. They confirm what scouts and GMs thought of EJ prior to his arrival in Buffalo. EJ is a 4th or 5th round talent, but we expect more from him because our front office foolishly took him in the 1st round. Welp, huevos on our faces. Let's see if something else might work.

[Formerly Allan in MD]

Sometimes I wonder if those who think EJ Manuel might be the answer have ever watched any of his games. I realize that's a cliche put down, but I'm serious. Every time he throws the ball it's a roller coaster. Not just because he's so insanely inaccurate on difficult throws, but on the easy ones as well. Over the first few games of the season, Watkins and Woods both almost got destroyed on multiple occasions this year while making the most athletic plays possible to catch what should've been routine passes. Even at his most impressive moments (e.g., the comeback vs. Carolina, the season opener against Chicago) he was making throws that any QB in the league could've made. Can a QB really make substantial improvements to his accuracy at the professional level? I highly doubt it.

 

And sadly, the numbers back these observations. They confirm what scouts and GMs thought of EJ prior to his arrival in Buffalo. EJ is a 4th or 5th round talent, but we expect more from him because our front office foolishly took him in the 1st round. Welp, huevos on our faces. Let's see if something else might work.

You can't teach accuracy or feel for the game. EJ has neither. Say what you want about Marrone, and I wasn't a supporter, but he certainly understood this.