EJ vs Derek Carr - perception

[billsfan89]

EJ got really hamstrung by the injuries he incurred his rookie year. That was the year he would have gotten a full 16 games to start with low expectations. But the Bills great defense last season put a lot of pressure on him to win now and he didn't get a full 16 in the year before due to injuries.

[QCity]

In a way that's what I'm saying yes, but this goes back to other rooks as well. When was the last time one was given enough time to actually develop into the franchise guy? I was always opposed to the benching of EJ, I rather would have suffered through a year of the troubles the Jets faced. The only thing good about the benching of EJ in retrospect is that now Orton took the flag for a crappy playbook/bad o-oline/rookie receiving core. The bad thing is that they took away a lot of reps that EJ needed badly, both behind the scenes as well as on the field. Now we'll be in year 3 of EJ with him still not being anything other then a rookie but he'll be judged like a veteran for sure.

 

How much time would you like to give him? We've already given him two years, and both times he lost the job himself - once by injury and once by terrible play. Keep in mind he's been regressing, not improving. Does anyone remember last offseason? He threw so many balls into the dirt at SJF, they'll probably need a new surface this year. He was so bad in preseason we had to keep our 1st team offense in the game well into the 3rd quarter to score our 1st TD against a 2nd string defense. He was so bad that Whaley had to bring in Jordan Palmer for a tryout, and then throw an $11M contract at Orton to get him to come here. We were practically facing a WR revolt after the San Diego game. Do you remember that? You want him to play 16 games regardless of how he performs? Is that fair to the rest of the team?

 

 

Edit: I also completely disagree with your theory that the fans need to baby our QB.

Edited February 17, 2015 by QCity

[DefenseWins]

Frankly, I am not sure that I would want either EJ or Derek Carr as my QB... EJ will get a chance to compete with all the other QB's on the roster at Training Camp... Let The Best QB Win!

[jaybee]

The perception of Derek Carr is that he is a franchise QB in the making in Oakland, and the Raiders should build around him. The perception of EJ is he is a bust in the making in Buffalo and the Bills should replace him. I saw this tweet and it made me think that while most of us have reservations about EJ it doesn't make much sense to give up on him this early.

 

@ChrisTrapasso: Reminder: #Bills QB EJ Manuel has played fewer games than Derek Carr. Manuel better comp %, TD %, YPA, QB rating. Carr better sack %, INT %

 

The expectations around these two QBs were very different. The Raiders were rebuilding and not expected to win many games. There wasn't pressure on Carr to win. He wasn't asked to play not to lose, IMO. He didn't win his first game until November. He won 3 games total out of 16. None on the road.

 

EJ's situation called for him to win now. He was not looked at as a developing player he was looked at immediately as the guy holding the team back because he was... Developing. Not saying that's wrong but the timing was not in his favor like it was for Guys like Carr and Bortles. They are not expected to be great right away because their teams are rebuilding. The Bills were already built. And coaches and GMs felt their jobs were on the line with new ownership. They didn't have time for a rookie QB.

 

I wonder if roles were reversed - and EJ was drafted last year by Oakland and Carr by Buffalo, would the perceptions of the two players be the same? This is a bad time to give up on a young QB who has won games for you, because of the lack of obvious better options out there to replace him. I may be in the minority but I think this is a new start for EJ that he needed. If he can't win in this new system, it can be time to pull the plug. I don't know if Marrone's system was the best for him. He wasn't invested in developing EJ. I understand why they put Orton in when they did and agreed with the move at the time. But EJ is young and has upside. I feel if the offense was tailored more to his strengths he could win with this team. I think Roman is the right guy.

 

This is not so, Yolo. With all due respect. He was to be a back-up behind Kevin Kolb unless he won the competition. Kolb became injured so EJ was thrown into the fire. Where he goes from here will be fun to watch. Hopefully far because without him, or a capable QB we've got a few more years of mediocrity.

 

The rule changes have made the QB position too important over the years. Its ruined the game for fans of many NFL cities. Not enough to go around and there probably never will be.

Edited February 18, 2015 by jaybee

[YoloinOhio]

 

This is not so, Yolo. With all due respect. He was to be a back-up behind Kevin Kolb unless he won the competition. Kolb became injured so EJ was thrown into the fire. Where he goes from here will be fun to watch. Hopefully far because without him, or a capable QB we've got a few more years of mediocrity.

 

The rule changes have made the QB position too important over the years. Its ruined the game for fans of many NFL cities. Not enough to go around and there probably never will be.

they didn't intend for him to start with the Kolb signing, but like Carr and Schaub, and Bortles and Henne, they all started anyway. I agree that the Haves and the Have Nots are separated by one position.

I agree that this is the common perception, but I think people are jumping the gun. I think Oakland saw enough out of Carr to give him more time to give him a chance to prove himself. He wasn't without his warts. But let's face it, what else is Oakland going to say right now? And what better narrative is there for the media to run with? Oakland isn't going to get a shot at Winston or Mariota this draft and Carr showed enough that they won't be looking to trade for a QB or sign one that thinks he can be a starter. They are going into the season doing the only thing they can and that's acting like Carr is their developing franchise QB. And maybe he will be, but that jury is still out. Another part of this equation that has to be considered is how bad Oakland's roster is from top to bottom. Mack aside, there isn't much help on that team for any QB so it is easy for fans and the media to pin any deficiencies on the team and give Carr a pass. That isn't without merit, but I am a "show me" guy. Carr isn't a FQB until he proves it and he's got quite a ways to go.

many think Oakland will make the jump this year to contender because they had a great draft last year, have mega cap space to sign FAs, and a top pick this year. And a QB. But, they will have a whole new offense with the coaching changes. So it might still be a couple years. But Del Rio had Jax as a contender at one point if I recall correctly, they could be on the upswing as Denver and SD's QBs age in that division and those teams could be on the downswing (but, they are still there for now)

[finn]

 

Is it EJ's fault that Marrone told him to check down all the time? I think it's been well established that Marrone had a major hand in EJ's timid play.

 

I think that EJ will have a huge chip on his shoulder this year. I'd be surprised if anyone beat him out in training camp. Manuel will want to prove that !@#$% idiot Marrone was the problem. If he doesn't show this attitude then you can stick a fork in him, he's done. His team mates will have no respect for him if he doesn't appear to be a man possessed to become the starter this year.

EJ wasn't just timid. He also threw his receivers into coverage (or body slams), was jumpy in the pocket and reluctant to run. I don't really blame him; I think he could have done much better had he sat and watched a few years, like Brady and others. It's very difficult to judge.

[msw2112]

I disagree with the premise of the initial post. Based on what I have seen of Manuel's play and Carr's play, I believe that Carr is the better QB at this point. I believe (and have stated in other posts) that EJ's stats are misleading and artificially inflated. He has a higher completion percentage due to the number of short passes and dump offs to RBs and many of his yards were YAC by guys like Freddie. He also was able to accumulate stats in garbage time/against prevent defenses (such as the SD game this year where all of his stats came when the Bills were WAY behind in the game). His interceptions were lower because he didn't throw a whole lot of downfield passes (and the majority of his sideline throws were out of bounds). His ability to read a defense and his accuracy are very poor at this point in his career. I have not seen a whole lot of Carr's games, so my sample size is small, but from what I have seen, he is more in command of the huddle and more of a "gamer" who isn't afraid to throw the ball downfield. And, for what it's worth, if you take away their actual draft position, Carr was higher rated coming out of college. Carr was rated by most to be a late 1st rounder/early 2nd rounder (which he was) and Manuel was rated to be a 3rd or 4th rounder by most of the draft prognosticators. Given EJ's obvious physical gifts (which I believe are superior to Carr's), there must have been something else in his game that led to him being rated lower. My guess is that "something" is accuracy and ability to read defenses.

 

That said, all QB's develop at a different pace and EJ has all the physical tools to be a good NFL QB. He's also had (arguably) poor coaching and conservative game plans. So I am keeping an open mind on EJ and very much hope that he develops into the solid starting NFL QB that the Bills need. I was at the Miami game this year and EJ played pretty well. He even put a sideline pass right in Sammy's hands at the goal line that Sammy dropped. If he could play at that level for 16 games, we'll be OK. Heck, if he could play at that level for 10-12 games, we're probably OK, given the current defense. If I had the option to trade EJ for Carr straight up, I'd take Carr, but I don't have that option, so I am firmly behind EJ. Let's see what Rex, Roman and Lee can do with him.

[YoloinOhio]

I disagree with the premise of the initial post. Based on what I have seen of Manuel's play and Carr's play, I believe that Carr is the better QB at this point. I believe (and have stated in other posts) that EJ's stats are misleading and artificially inflated. He has a higher completion percentage due to the number of short passes and dump offs to RBs and many of his yards were YAC by guys like Freddie. He also was able to accumulate stats in garbage time/against prevent defenses (such as the SD game this year where all of his stats came when the Bills were WAY behind in the game). His interceptions were lower because he didn't throw a whole lot of downfield passes (and the majority of his sideline throws were out of bounds). His ability to read a defense and his accuracy are very poor at this point in his career. I have not seen a whole lot of Carr's games, so my sample size is small, but from what I have seen, he is more in command of the huddle and more of a "gamer" who isn't afraid to throw the ball downfield. And, for what it's worth, if you take away their actual draft position, Carr was higher rated coming out of college. Carr was rated by most to be a late 1st rounder/early 2nd rounder (which he was) and Manuel was rated to be a 3rd or 4th rounder by most of the draft prognosticators. Given EJ's obvious physical gifts (which I believe are superior to Carr's), there must have been something else in his game that led to him being rated lower. My guess is that "something" is accuracy and ability to read defenses.

 

That said, all QB's develop at a different pace and EJ has all the physical tools to be a good NFL QB. He's also had (arguably) poor coaching and conservative game plans. So I am keeping an open mind on EJ and very much hope that he develops into the solid starting NFL QB that the Bills need. I was at the Miami game this year and EJ played pretty well. He even put a sideline pass right in Sammy's hands at the goal line that Sammy dropped. If he could play at that level for 16 games, we'll be OK. Heck, if he could play at that level for 10-12 games, we're probably OK, given the current defense. If I had the option to trade EJ for Carr straight up, I'd take Carr, but I don't have that option, so I am firmly behind EJ. Let's see what Rex, Roman and Lee can do with him.

I love Carr's arm too. I was under the impression he threw downfield a ton maybe because I saw some of his highlight throws. But his Yards per attempt were last in the league at 5.46. I don't know if he didn't throw downfield as much as we think, or he did check down more than we think.

 

EJ actually had a higher ypa - 6.4 in 2013 and 6.4 in 2014

Edited February 18, 2015 by YoloinOhio

[dave mcbride]

I disagree with the premise of the initial post. Based on what I have seen of Manuel's play and Carr's play, I believe that Carr is the better QB at this point. I believe (and have stated in other posts) that EJ's stats are misleading and artificially inflated. He has a higher completion percentage due to the number of short passes and dump offs to RBs and many of his yards were YAC by guys like Freddie. He also was able to accumulate stats in garbage time/against prevent defenses (such as the SD game this year where all of his stats came when the Bills were WAY behind in the game). His interceptions were lower because he didn't throw a whole lot of downfield passes (and the majority of his sideline throws were out of bounds). His ability to read a defense and his accuracy are very poor at this point in his career. I have not seen a whole lot of Carr's games, so my sample size is small, but from what I have seen, he is more in command of the huddle and more of a "gamer" who isn't afraid to throw the ball downfield. And, for what it's worth, if you take away their actual draft position, Carr was higher rated coming out of college. Carr was rated by most to be a late 1st rounder/early 2nd rounder (which he was) and Manuel was rated to be a 3rd or 4th rounder by most of the draft prognosticators. Given EJ's obvious physical gifts (which I believe are superior to Carr's), there must have been something else in his game that led to him being rated lower. My guess is that "something" is accuracy and ability to read defenses.

 

That said, all QB's develop at a different pace and EJ has all the physical tools to be a good NFL QB. He's also had (arguably) poor coaching and conservative game plans. So I am keeping an open mind on EJ and very much hope that he develops into the solid starting NFL QB that the Bills need. I was at the Miami game this year and EJ played pretty well. He even put a sideline pass right in Sammy's hands at the goal line that Sammy dropped. If he could play at that level for 16 games, we'll be OK. Heck, if he could play at that level for 10-12 games, we're probably OK, given the current defense. If I had the option to trade EJ for Carr straight up, I'd take Carr, but I don't have that option, so I am firmly behind EJ. Let's see what Rex, Roman and Lee can do with him.

Sammy didn't drop that pass. It was defended perfectly by Brent Grimes, one of the best cbs in football last season.

[YoloinOhio]

Sammy didn't drop that pass. It was defended perfectly by Brent Grimes, one of the best cbs in football last season.

i remember and agree it was a great play by Grimes. And a very nice throw.

[Ted William's frozen head]

The perception of Derek Carr is that he is a franchise QB in the making in Oakland, and the Raiders should build around him. The perception of EJ is he is a bust in the making in Buffalo and the Bills should replace him. I saw this tweet and it made me think that while most of us have reservations about EJ it doesn't make much sense to give up on him this early.

After EJ got hurt, he always gave the impression that he required a frequent 'change of undies' when he was on the field. If this staff can coach that out of him, fine. I have my doubts.

I disagree with the premise of the initial post. Based on what I have seen of Manuel's play and Carr's play, I believe that Carr is the better QB at this point. I believe (and have stated in other posts) that EJ's stats are misleading and artificially inflated. He has a higher completion percentage due to the number of short passes and dump offs to RBs and many of his yards were YAC by guys like Freddie. He also was able to accumulate stats in garbage time/against prevent defenses (such as the SD game this year where all of his stats came when the Bills were WAY behind in the game). His interceptions were lower because he didn't throw a whole lot of downfield passes (and the majority of his sideline throws were out of bounds). His ability to read a defense and his accuracy are very poor at this point in his career.

 

...................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

In a nutshell, you are 100% correct.

EJ got really hamstrung by the injuries he incurred his rookie year. That was the year he would have gotten a full 16 games to start with low expectations. But the Bills great defense last season put a lot of pressure on him to win now and he didn't get a full 16 in the year before due to injuries.

EJ has been scared sh!tless ever since he got hurt. EJ's game is using his legs. His main weapon has been neutralized.

[Mark80]

I love Carr's arm too. I was under the impression he threw downfield a ton maybe because I saw some of his highlight throws. But his Yards per attempt were last in the league at 5.46. I don't know if he didn't throw downfield as much as we think, or he did check down more than we think.

 

EJ actually had a higher ypa - 6.4 in 2013 and 6.4 in 2014

 

Ut oh, there it is again. One of those logical conclusions that are supported by facts. Is it April 1st already?

[The Wiz]

EJ's situation was not to "win now" until his second season. And it's partially EJ's fault he didn't play much in his first. And it's also the circumstance of the game that if you get hurt, it's tough toenails for you. Just ask Locker.

 

Carr's team also sucks. And if Carr in his second season shows up afraid to throw a pass to anyone but his RB, his head will be called for.

 

That's the long and short of it.

Although I don't disagree, you are missing some points. EJ's first season was not meant to be his coming out party (or at least that was the reason for getting Kolb). Then a slip of the mat happened and EJ is the starter. He was thrown into the fire week 1 and held his own. As time went on teams learned with film and he had injuries. I honestly feel that Kolb would have started even if EJ looked better in camp just to have a player with experience in the game. (see the last game of the season vs the pats which meant nothing to us or them).

 

Even still, I don't think he really regressed until this past year when Marrone was in "win now" mode and with no real QB on the team until about 5 minutes before the first game when they signed Orton.

 

Everyone said the same thing about EJ, he's a QB that is raw and needs to be molded into a NFL QB. He has all the tools but just needs to learn and develop. I do think he will still learn how to be a decent QB in the league but Marrone and his "win now but don't make me look bad" philosophy didn't help. FJ already confirmed this with the play calling.

[GunnerBill]

I think this thread just further proves my premise. If we had drafted Carr a year ago and he had played like this in Buffalo (and listen I have seen every NFL throw the kid has made he has missed some open guys just as bad as EJ has - it is called being an NFL rookie Quarterback) we would have gnashing of teeth and screaming about his pathetic YPA and crappy completion percentage. We wouldn't be pointing to the spells he had in games where he really had that Oakland offense moving and where he got into decent rhythm.

 

I am not suggesting that we got as far as babying any young QB either whether that is EJ, a mid round guy this year or a high draft pick next year.... but whilst this fan base continues to obsess over the position in the way that we do we are creating a climate where it is even more difficult for a young guy to succeed and where nothing short of a pro-bowl rookie year will do. There are not many Andrew Lucks, there aren't even many Russell Wilsons.... eventually we have to take the Giants approach with Eli or the Chiefs approach with Smith or what the Dolphins have tried with Tannehill and say it might be 2 or even more seasons of up and down inconsistent play before 'our guy' develops the consistency to be considered a franchise guy. EJ might not be the guy to invest that patience in, Derek Carr might or might not prove to be that in Oakland.... but I don't think any normal rookie would be given a chance by this fanbase anymore.... nothing but excellence on day 1 is going to be tolerated.... it is totally unrealistic.

Edited February 18, 2015 by GunnerBill

[FireChan]

Although I don't disagree, you are missing some points. EJ's first season was not meant to be his coming out party (or at least that was the reason for getting Kolb). Then a slip of the mat happened and EJ is the starter. He was thrown into the fire week 1 and held his own. As time went on teams learned with film and he had injuries. I honestly feel that Kolb would have started even if EJ looked better in camp just to have a player with experience in the game. (see the last game of the season vs the pats which meant nothing to us or them).

 

Even still, I don't think he really regressed until this past year when Marrone was in "win now" mode and with no real QB on the team until about 5 minutes before the first game when they signed Orton.

 

Everyone said the same thing about EJ, he's a QB that is raw and needs to be molded into a NFL QB. He has all the tools but just needs to learn and develop. I do think he will still learn how to be a decent QB in the league but Marrone and his "win now but don't make me look bad" philosophy didn't help. FJ already confirmed this with the play calling.

If EJ is supposed to be "molded" then we still need to look elsewhere for a QB. He should've been a five year plan and not seen a down.

 

Although, I do enjoy this talking out of both sides. Many folks on this board believed Marrone and Co. should've been canned if they didn't go at least 9-7 last year. I even did a topic. This was pre-Orton btw. http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/167876-what-record-saves-this-staff-dooms-them/

 

So, back then, prevailing thought was that if the 2014 Bills didn't go at least 9-7, they were all canned. And now EJ's still raw, needs more time to be molded, still needs to develop. No. You don't get to predict a coaching staff getting axed at 9-7 and ask for a second developmental year. That's wanting contradictory things. And it's wrong.

 

(BTW, not calling you out specifically, just a general point.)

Edited February 18, 2015 by FireChan

[The Wiz]

If EJ is supposed to be "molded" then we still need to look elsewhere for a QB. He should've been a five year plan and not seen a down.

 

Although, I do enjoy this talking out of both sides. Many folks on this board believed Marrone and Co. should've been canned if they didn't go at least 9-7 last year. I even did a topic. This was pre-Orton btw. http://forums.twobillsdrive.com/topic/167876-what-record-saves-this-staff-dooms-them/

 

So, back then, prevailing thought was that if the 2014 Bills didn't go at least 9-7, they were all canned. And now EJ's still raw, needs more time to be molded, still needs to develop. No. You don't get to predict a coaching staff getting axed at 9-7 and ask for a second developmental year. That's wanting contradictory things. And it's wrong.

 

(BTW, not calling you out specifically, just a general point.)

Not a problem. I agree we are still looking for a QB whether it be starter, back up, project, etc. I'm not going to say EJ is ready to lead the team. He still has a lot to learn/develop, but I'm not writing him off based on the situation he was put in. And yes, I know 1st rounders are expected to contribute but he wasn't going to come in and win every game. If you expected that then I don't know what to tell you.

[Bangarang]

Lol, it is the point. Other then an allready established hall of fame kind of QB that still has a few years left in him not a single QB will survive the social media pressure, fan pressure and media pressure because the entire Buffalo area is one unwelcoming hostile place to be as a QB.

 

We need to rally behind our QB instead of being hyper critical into their face. A rookie QB is going to cost you games, same for a rookie RB which will cost you a game as well as rookie WRs which will cost you games. The overly critical environment that is Buffalo with regards to the QB position is making things worse throughout, we need to create an environment that is contributing to the solution. Tweeting all players that your rookie QB should be benched after he made a game deciding mistake gets under the skin of the team, certainly when that is picked up and further escalated by the press and repeated with a second game deciding mistake.

 

I'm not saying we can't discuss the flaws and mistakes made by our rook QBs, but the things is that is not even happening anymore; it's out right bench him yesterday cries from a lot of people and that doesnt go unnoticed. Hardly ever do we discuss the great plays made by the rooks, they get a short mention in gameday threads but that is where it ends. The only way the fans give props is when the QB plays a flawless game and pulls out the win, scratch the win and he'll still hear he needs to be benched. Given a loss the next week, back are the benchcallers. The best a rook QB with the Bills can hope for is silence. At this point I'm nearly convinced that even when we get a QB that brings us the Super Bowl there still will be fans calling for him to be benched and how well the season could have been with QB Magical X. News flash, did you see Aaron Rodgers this year against us? Or better yet Rodgers as the backup of Favre (we would have run that inferior backup QB outta town).

If you want to rally behind mediocrity then that's fine. Just because I can't give you a player available who is guarenteed to be better than EJ doesnt mean the evaluation of him not being any good is false.

 

I want him to be great but I won't ignore his on field production just so his feelings don't get hurt. Give me a break.

[FireChan]

Not a problem. I agree we are still looking for a QB whether it be starter, back up, project, etc. I'm not going to say EJ is ready to lead the team. He still has a lot to learn/develop, but I'm not writing him off based on the situation he was put in. And yes, I know 1st rounders are expected to contribute but he wasn't going to come in and win every game. If you expected that then I don't know what to tell you.

I didn't make that point. The point I made was that you can't hold the coaching staff accountable for wins and losses while they're playing to "develop" a guy and have him learn out there as an inferior QB. But they were held accountable. It was sort of a catch-22.

[FLbills]

The perception of Derek Carr is that he is a franchise QB in the making in Oakland, and the Raiders should build around him. The perception of EJ is he is a bust in the making in Buffalo and the Bills should replace him. I saw this tweet and it made me think that while most of us have reservations about EJ it doesn't make much sense to give up on him this early.

 

@ChrisTrapasso: Reminder: #Bills QB EJ Manuel has played fewer games than Derek Carr. Manuel better comp %, TD %, YPA, QB rating. Carr better sack %, INT %

 

The expectations around these two QBs were very different. The Raiders were rebuilding and not expected to win many games. There wasn't pressure on Carr to win. He wasn't asked to play not to lose, IMO. He didn't win his first game until November. He won 3 games total out of 16. None on the road.

 

EJ's situation called for him to win now. He was not looked at as a developing player he was looked at immediately as the guy holding the team back because he was... Developing. Not saying that's wrong but the timing was not in his favor like it was for Guys like Carr and Bortles. They are not expected to be great right away because their teams are rebuilding. The Bills were already built. And coaches and GMs felt their jobs were on the line with new ownership. They didn't have time for a rookie QB.

 

I wonder if roles were reversed - and EJ was drafted last year by Oakland and Carr by Buffalo, would the perceptions of the two players be the same? This is a bad time to give up on a young QB who has won games for you, because of the lack of obvious better options out there to replace him. I may be in the minority but I think this is a new start for EJ that he needed. If he can't win in this new system, it can be time to pull the plug. I don't know if Marrone's system was the best for him. He wasn't invested in developing EJ. I understand why they put Orton in when they did and agreed with the move at the time. But EJ is young and has upside. I feel if the offense was tailored more to his strengths he could win with this team. I think Roman is the right guy.

The team is still built to win now. The defense is excellent, expected only to get better under Ryan/Thurman. They signed R.I., a sign that they are addressing the o-line and should have it solidified come training camp. RB, same thing, shouldn't be to hard to address through the draft.

 

On that note, I would like to see EJ light it up this year. I personally think the young man deserves a fair shot. Thrown to the wolves, as stated by the OP.

[The Wiz]

I didn't make that point. The point I made was that you can't hold the coaching staff accountable for wins and losses while they're playing to "develop" a guy and have him learn out there as an inferior QB. But they were held accountable. It was sort of a catch-22.

I know you never made the point but get the feeling someone else would have made it. The coaching staff was held accountable for poor play calling whether it was EJ or Orton. Orton led a few game winning drives, so did EJ.

 

They were held accountable yes, but the HC quit on his own and his staff got canned with him. Not EJ's fault when he at least went 2-2.