EJ vs Derek Carr - perception

[YoloinOhio]

Probably now equals "convinced" so hard to have a conversation here sometimes...

 

B.c he showed much more throwing the ball then EJ did. If all you are doing is looking at stats then that is why you are losing this conversation... Not to mention changing everything I say into something else.

I'm not just looking at stats. It just took you way too long to answer my question.

 

Also I first asked "why do you think Carr would have made the playoffs here"? You didn't answer so I asked it again... assuming you just were so locked into your decision that you didn't need to. That's why it became "convenced" the next time, inadvertently I might add. Next time feel free to just point me to "I already said why, because of the WRs."

Edited February 17, 2015 by YoloinOhio

[John from Riverside]

 

Is it EJ's fault that Marrone told him to check down all the time? I think it's been well established that Marrone had a major hand in EJ's timid play.

 

I think that EJ will have a huge chip on his shoulder this year. I'd be surprised if anyone beat him out in training camp. Manuel will want to prove that !@#$% idiot Marrone was the problem. If he doesn't show this attitude then you can stick a fork in him, he's done. His team mates will have no respect for him if he doesn't appear to be a man possessed to become the starter this year.

I think it has been well established that their is a STRONG BELIEF that Marrone is the reason for EJ's timid play.......

 

God I hope that is correct

[Beef Jerky]

I'm not just looking at stats. It just took you way too long to answer my question.

The question was answered in my very first post. You just kept trying to ask it over and over again.

[YoloinOhio]

The question was answered in my very first post. You just kept trying to ask it over and over again.

I didn't think " he would have had great WRs to throw to" was your answer to him leading to the team to the playoffs. And yes he would be leading them, not "helping" them because a QB is the leader of the team and if the answer lies in him throwing the ball to the WRs then he would have certainly been leading them there.

 

I am not an argumentative type so I don't try to "win" conversations. I was just asking a question based on the topic. I don't care to be "right." I cite stats as a discussion point, not to prove a point. Sorry if you thought otherwise.

Edited February 17, 2015 by YoloinOhio

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

why do you think that Carr would have made the playoffs here? I don't agree James Jones would have been inactive.

This is the old, any guy on any other roster is obviously better than any guy on b-los roster. It is a tried and true belt proof argurment.

 

Also don't try to compare stats, in case you are so inclined, because the omnipotent "eye test" supersedes any of that analytical garbage.

Edited February 17, 2015 by over 20 years of fanhood

[KD in CA]

 

My theory is that EJ Manuel was told not to take chances and not to run. Marrone basically cut off his you-know-what's.

 

Before you can become a good to great QB you need to be allowed to become a good to great QB. All of the greats were allowed to become QBs by letting them throw the ball without reprisals.

 

I had never seen a more conservative offense than I did the Buffalo Bills 2014 offense. I think that if Roman lets EJ "let er rip" and run it when he has to and lets him sink or swim in a "big boy" offense with no training wheels, that Manuel will have a jaw dropping "where the heck did that come from?" season.

 

IMO the Buffalo Bills biggest 2015 offseason move was made by Doug Marrone.

 

Bingo. It was the same in 2013. Remember all those deep sideline patterns that EJ inevitably threw out of bounds? You can't tell me he wasn't influenced by Marrone.

 

And for all the criticism of Ryan and his 'lack of QB development', at least he allowed Geno to go out and play and make his mistakes so they could evaluate what they had.

[FireChan]

 

My theory is that EJ Manuel was told not to take chances and not to run. Marrone basically cut off his you-know-what's.

 

Before you can become a good to great QB you need to be allowed to become a good to great QB. All of the greats were allowed to become QBs by letting them throw the ball without reprisals.

 

I had never seen a more conservative offense than I did the Buffalo Bills 2014 offense. I think that if Roman lets EJ "let er rip" and run it when he has to and lets him sink or swim in a "big boy" offense with no training wheels, that Manuel will have a jaw dropping "where the heck did that come from?" season.

 

IMO the Buffalo Bills biggest 2015 offseason move was made by Doug Marrone.

Bad argument. Why do you think EJ was told to be conservative? Because he was bad and got hurt. After his third injury, many wanted him to stop running.

 

EJ had a horrible completion percentage to his WR's. Whether he checked down 50 or 200 times, his completion percentage to his WR's sucked. He couldn't or wouldn't complete passes to them for that Houston game.

Edited February 17, 2015 by FireChan

[YoloinOhio]

This is the old, any guy on any other roster is obviously better than any guy on b-los roster. It is a tried and true belt proof argurment.

 

Also don't try to compare stats, in case you are so inclined, because the omnipotent "eye test" supersedes any of that analytical garbage.

Yep and I really don't think stats are the whole story in a vacuum. They are just a piece of the puzzle. But I'm not in love with Carr's eye test so it doesn't supercede his stats. I do like him - think he can be a good NFL QB. But the perception seeme to be he's an obvious franchise QB. I don't know, as many of his throws were as bad as some were impressive.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

 

My theory is that EJ Manuel was told not to take chances and not to run. Marrone basically cut off his you-know-what's.

 

Before you can become a good to great QB you need to be allowed to become a good to great QB. All of the greats were allowed to become QBs by letting them throw the ball without reprisals.

 

I had never seen a more conservative offense than I did the Buffalo Bills 2014 offense. I think that if Roman lets EJ "let er rip" and run it when he has to and lets him sink or swim in a "big boy" offense with no training wheels, that Manuel will have a jaw dropping "where the heck did that come from?" season.

 

IMO the Buffalo Bills biggest 2015 offseason move was made by Doug Marrone.

Whether your theory is right or wrong it absolutely must be examined and allowed to play out.

 

Manual has put up very good rookie qb numbers, whether you agree with stats or not, it's a fact.

 

He has prototypical size and arm strength for a NFL qb and is above average athletically.

 

You just gotta turn over every stone to see if you can salvage this guy and get him to be a proficient player.

[johnwalter]

Carr is nothing.

Bridgewater is who we should have drafted.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Yep and I really don't think stats are the whole story in a vacuum. They are just a piece of the puzzle. But I'm not in love with Carr's eye test so it doesn't supercede his stats. I do like him - think he can be a good NFL QB. But the perception seeme to be he's an obvious franchise QB. I don't know, as many of his throws were as bad as some were impressive.

You'e on point about this whole thing. Many QBs are in the don't know if they'll be a franchise Qb realm and almost all of them have been.

 

 

Brees was let go by San Diego, Flacco and eli have gotten this for a good bit of their career, Brady barely made a team, Rodgers rode the pine for 2-3 years, favre was ditched by Atlanta, Big Ben was a game mgr in the beggining and didn't even win the starting role early on. Romo wasn't drafted and ride the pine for ages. Cutler was traded for orton??? At some point in time not one of these guys was the obvious franchise qb. Andrew luck and peyton manning may be the two lone examples we've ever seen.

Edited February 17, 2015 by over 20 years of fanhood

[YoloinOhio]

Whether your theory is right or wrong it absolutely must be examined and allowed to play out.

 

Manual has put up very good rookie qb numbers, whether you agree with stats or not, it's a fact.

 

He has prototypical size and arm strength for a NFL qb and is above average athletically.

 

You just gotta turn over every stone to see if you can salvage this guy and get him to be a proficient player.

This is how I feel. I really was down on EJ in the SD and Houston games (and preseason), and for good reason. Like most people. But I am not going to call it a foregone conclusion he can't play. I think this is chance, with the new coaching staff. He still has the GM who drafted him in place, which helps a lot too.

[maddenboy]

The stats dont really tell the numbers on these two qbs

 

There are two games that are always on in my house......the bills (because its MY HOUSE... ) and the raiders....because every other family member in my house is a raiders fan.

 

Carr plays games like he wants to win them........he throws the ball downfield.......and he was doing it from day one.

 

EJ Manuel...I root for him but he is not as good as Carr....maybe that will change? I dont know.

 

The bills are much closer to the playoffs then the raiders are........we need a QB that will win (or not lose us games) right now

 

Been saying this for a long time about QBs. Every time I see a post about Manning's stats his first season, blah blah. I'm sure when I was 3 years old, my 40 time was faster than Chris Johnson's after 3 years. All I needed was more time. Better coaching. Fan support.

 

Its about quarterbacking. Its about doing the things a qb must do. And showing promise.

 

You can be patient with a guy who shows he can do these things. But IMHO, if a guy doesnt have it in him, its next to impossible to teach it.

 

You can teach him to increase his completion percentage (with dumpoffs or a 1st read offense), you can teach him to avoid sacks, but progressions, accuracy, anticipation, tight windows, pocket awareness, etc., I dont think giving a guy X-number of additional games is going to suddenly reveal that he now has "it"

Edited February 17, 2015 by maddenboy

[Garranimal]

I think it has been well established that their is a STRONG BELIEF here, by people that want it to be true, that Marrone is the reason for EJ's timid play.......

 

God I hope that is correct

fixed it for you.

[maddenboy]

Whether your theory is right or wrong it absolutely must be examined and allowed to play out.

 

You just gotta turn over every stone to see if you can salvage this guy and get him to be a proficient player.

 

Respectfully disagree. There's only so many reps to go around. And there's only 16 precious games per season.

 

there seemed to be a feeling early last season that EJ should be given games until, basically, we were out of playoff contention. "He's only had X games, and so-and-so had X+Y games, so EJ needs more before we really know for sure." But to me, if he isnt earning playing time in practice, then get him out of the way.

 

Be patient? okay

Try to squeeze him reps? okay

Get him an off-season QB whisperer? sure

Force him into the starting role, because starting games is the only way he'll learn? NO

Force him into the starting role, because we need to know a.s.a.p. if he can play? NO

Edited February 17, 2015 by maddenboy

[Lurker]

My biggest long term issue with E.j is that he has never been an accurate passer. I don't know if that gets fixed. I can see him improving on reading defenses ect but he needs to hit open receivers

Well, I think we have to consider who he was throwing to as well.

 

Has E.J. ever had a polished WR that ran precise routes and who could be counted on to be at the spot the QB was throwing to? IMO, Stevie was released largely because E.J could never count on him to run the same route twice. The other wideouts were either rookies or had limited experience and may not have been consistently running their routes as designed either.

 

I'm curious to see E.J. perform with a more veteran group this year and get a better read on whether the accuracy issues are still as prevalent...

[John from Riverside]

This is how I feel. I really was down on EJ in the SD and Houston games (and preseason), and for good reason. Like most people. But I am not going to call it a foregone conclusion he can't play. I think this is chance, with the new coaching staff. He still has the GM who drafted him in place, which helps a lot too.

I think the best thing that could have happened to EJ Manuel was that Marrone and his O staff was cut loose......lets examine:

 

- If Marrone had stayed you had seen for sure your last days of EJ Manuel under center as a starter.

 

- it is interesting that no matter WHO they put under center.....play from that QB got progressively worse with each start. This was REALLY apparent with Orton.

 

- A uncreative.....ineffective offensive game plan

 

- OL that got worse with each game.....i

[Mark80]

The perception of Derek Carr is that he is a franchise QB in the making in Oakland, and the Raiders should build around him. The perception of EJ is he is a bust in the making in Buffalo and the Bills should replace him. I saw this tweet and it made me think that while most of us have reservations about EJ it doesn't make much sense to give up on him this early.

 

@ChrisTrapasso: Reminder: #Bills QB EJ Manuel has played fewer games than Derek Carr. Manuel better comp %, TD %, YPA, QB rating. Carr better sack %, INT %

 

The expectations around these two QBs were very different. The Raiders were rebuilding and not expected to win many games. There wasn't pressure on Carr to win. He wasn't asked to play not to lose, IMO. He didn't win his first game until November. He won 3 games total out of 16. None on the road.

 

EJ's situation called for him to win now. He was not looked at as a developing player he was looked at immediately as the guy holding the team back because he was... Developing. Not saying that's wrong but the timing was not in his favor like it was for Guys like Carr and Bortles. They are not expected to be great right away because their teams are rebuilding. The Bills were already built. And coaches and GMs felt their jobs were on the line with new ownership. They didn't have time for a rookie QB.

 

I wonder if roles were reversed - and EJ was drafted last year by Oakland and Carr by Buffalo, would the perceptions of the two players be the same? This is a bad time to give up on a young QB who has won games for you, because of the lack of obvious better options out there to replace him. I may be in the minority but I think this is a new start for EJ that he needed. If he can't win in this new system, it can be time to pull the plug. I don't know if Marrone's system was the best for him. He wasn't invested in developing EJ. I understand why they put Orton in when they did and agreed with the move at the time. But EJ is young and has upside. I feel if the offense was tailored more to his strengths he could win with this team. I think Roman is the right guy.

 

I've said this numerous times in numerous threads. People just want to be haters, grass is always greener sort of thing. Without reading responses I'm betting some posters are writing something along the lines of stats don't tell the whole story, Carr just looks better, all the pundits like Carr more, the Bills have way more talent than the Raiders or some combination thereof. What they will conveniently forget to mention is how our offensive coaching and play calling during EJs time here was the, hands down, worst in the league. EJ was straight up handcuffed by those guys. They are the ones who taught him to not lose games rather than try to win them and it was readily apparent in my opinion.

 

Also, Derek Carr looked terrible against the Bills. He threw up two jump balls that were caught and that is all he did. We lost that game b/c Dareus was lost to injury and we couldn't stop the run.

Carr is nothing.

Bridgewater is who we should have drafted.

Now he does look to be better than EJ and could soon be a star.

Edited February 17, 2015 by Mark80

[Maddog69]

This is the make or break year for EJ. Competition will be brought in. It will be up to him to step up and take the starting job or sit back and become a career backup and still make more money than any of us will make in our lifetime.

 

As for Carr, time will tell. I tend to believe his play has been a tad bit overhyped. He too needs to take the next step. It remains to be seen whether he will do that.

[transient]

 

Been saying this for a long time about QBs. Every time I see a post about Manning's stats his first season, blah blah. I'm sure when I was 3 years old, my 40 time was faster than Chris Johnson's after 3 years. All I needed was more time. Better coaching. Fan support.

 

Its about quarterbacking. Its about doing the things a qb must do. And showing promise.

 

You can be patient with a guy who shows he can do these things. But IMHO, if a guy doesnt have it in him, its next to impossible to teach it.

 

You can teach him to increase his completion percentage (with dumpoffs or a 1st read offense), you can teach him to avoid sacks, but progressions, accuracy, anticipation, tight windows, pocket awareness, etc., I dont think giving a guy X-number of additional games is going to suddenly reveal that he now has "it"

 

I would argue that bad coaching can also get inside of a young player's head to the extent that "it" has a hard time overcoming poor instruction. I'm not suggesting that EJ definitely has "it," but there were a few times in the first season when it seemed that a game was on the line and he stopped thinking, and was able to play a more instinctual game. The Pats* game in his first start comes to mind. OT in the Atlanta game comes to mind. There were others.

 

It was mentioned upthread by KD about Rex letting Geno play to see what he had. Unfortunately for Rex, Geno is a brick, and he proved that he is a turnover machine that has a hard time thinking about the reprecussions of blindly pulling the trigger, but I would have loved to see EJ in a similar situation where taking care of the ball was not the first, second, third, and fourth priority that appeared to be drilled into his head.

 

IMO, Marrone completely missed the point of taking chances on offense when you have a defense that can bail you out if you turn the ball over. He should have tried harder to develop a young QB with a defense like that to fall back on, but I suspect in the back of his mind he had one foot out the door the second the prospect of the ownership change entered the picture. Unfortunately, his self-serving approach leaves the franchise in the same spot it was at the beginning of last season, with a playoff caliber roster that is now 1 year older and a big unanswered question at QB.