BillsFan-4-Ever Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 when I see anything in reference to WGR, Joe Buscaglia I immediately throw it out the window as meaningless. The day I trust WGR to provide me with RELIABLE news is the day hell freezes over. Not being in Buffalo I don't hear much from WGR other than being on their e-mail list I am still trying to figure out why any Bills fan would have more personally invested in EJ than any other QB on the roster? EJ (and every other QB on the roster this year, last year and the year before for that matter) has done absolutely nothing to endear himself to the buffalo fanbase.....IMO that is. i love me some Fred, EJ could retire tomorrow and it wouldn't matter to me. Because so much was invested in him and he was never given an opportunity to actually LEARN and PROGRESS under Marroone. don't pretend that most of the experienced QB's in the NFL could have run the fast paced Offense that Moron ran in 2013. Then the moron scrapped it the next season to start all over.
Garranimal Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 (edited) when I see anything in reference to WGR, Joe Buscaglia I immediately throw it out the window as meaningless. The day I trust WGR to provide me with RELIABLE news is the day hell freezes over. Not being in Buffalo I don't hear much from WGR other than being on their e-mail list Because so much was invested in him and he was never given an opportunity to actually LEARN and PROGRESS under Marroone. don't pretend that most of the experienced QB's in the NFL could have run the fast paced Offense that Moron ran in 2013. Then the moron scrapped it the next season to start all over. Again, thank god we can now blame the "moron' coach. How is EJ any different now than he was at FSU where he worked with Jimbo Fisher who is generally recognized as a QB guru (not by me, mind you)? Is it not just as likely that Jimbo managed to get as much out of EJ as is possible and that the influence of playing with a QB Guru as a coach elevated his PERCEIVED potential? The same issues he was identified as having coming out of FSU's program are the same ones he still has. I just believe it is the difference of evaluating "what is" versus postulating "what possibly, sorta, maybe could be". You might see the glass half full, I see a 16 ounce glass with 8 ounces of fluid in it. Edited February 19, 2015 by Garranimal
C.Biscuit97 Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 ok....i was beginning to think he paid your mortgage or something. You seem to be REALLY attached to this kid. And please, for the love of god, please stop talking about upsides and ceilings.....they are the same as Nessie and Unicorns. It's all double speak and mythology. A guy is either good or not, he can either get better, plateau or regress. there is no measurable upside or ceiling, it is simply verbal fodder that cannot be proven, disproven or even argued. That's what you do with young players. It's what they are doing at the combine. EJ has the physical and mental makeup of a successful NFL QB (Cutler has the physcial part but lacks the mental). He may never get there but it's why he gets drafted high in the draft. Projection. And it's not so much about EJ (but he does seem like a guy you want to root for). It's this hot pocket mentality of fans and media. If a guy doesn't succeed at QB in the NFL (maybe one of the hardest positions to succeed in the entire world) right way, he sucks and you need to move on. You don't develop a young qb but yanking him in and out of the lineup or giving him a Syracuse coach to be both his rookie year OC and QB coach. You need to be patience with QBs because it's a process. But IMO, I'd rather fail with EJ than Orton or a guy liek that. Again, thank god we can now blame the "moron' coach. How is EJ any different now than he was at FSU where he worked with Jimbo Fisher who is generally recognized as a QB guru (not by me, mind you)? Is it not just as likely that Jimbo managed to get as much out of EJ as is possible and that the influence of playing with a QB Guru as a coach elevated his PERCEIVED potential? The same issues he was identified as having coming out of FSU's program are the same ones he still has. I just believe it is the difference of evaluating "what is" versus postulating "what possibly, sorta, maybe could be". You might see the glass half full, I see a 16 ounce glass with 8 ounces of fluid in it. Do you honestly think EJ would be the same player under Chip KElly than he is under Marrone/ Hackett? Because I don't.
Dorkington Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 To be clear, I'm not more interested in EJ than the Bills. I'm more interested in the Bills taking, what I believe is, the correct course in finding a franchise QB. EJ's "rookie" numbers and performances have been very similar to many starting caliber QBs during their introductery years, basically short of just Wilson (who, no offense, is lucky he's on a loaded Seattle squad) and Luck. Yet so many are clawing to have him benched... but for who? Some other risky rookie who would need to develop? Some mediocre backup? Seriously, unless we somehow land Manning or Brees, or something, no one else available is clearly above EJ's *current* performance, and EJ still has the ability to develop and get better, hence why I would support the Bills continuing to develop their young QB. If EJ comes out and stinks it up during the preseason (and no, not just the first few camps and first preseason game with a new offensive system), and one of our other guys is *clearly* better, then by all means sit EJ. But if EJ and no name mediocre vet are neck and neck, I give it to EJ, because EJ has a higher ceiling at the moment.
Garranimal Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 That's what you do with young players. It's what they are doing at the combine. EJ has the physical and mental makeup of a successful NFL QB (Cutler has the physcial part but lacks the mental). He may never get there but it's why he gets drafted high in the draft. Projection. And it's not so much about EJ (but he does seem like a guy you want to root for). It's this hot pocket mentality of fans and media. If a guy doesn't succeed at QB in the NFL (maybe one of the hardest positions to succeed in the entire world) right way, he sucks and you need to move on. You don't develop a young qb but yanking him in and out of the lineup or giving him a Syracuse coach to be both his rookie year OC and QB coach. You need to be patience with QBs because it's a process. But IMO, I'd rather fail with EJ than Orton or a guy liek that. Do you honestly think EJ would be the same player under Chip KElly than he is under Marrone/ Hackett? Because I don't. Do running backs come on and off the field? Do linebackers? Why is QB the only position on the field you have to suffer with to develop a guy? The defense rarely gets to actually tackle anyone in practice....and yet they develop without having to be starters. And as for the Chip Kelly question....I believe it is equally possible that he would still have the same issues. Hell, he might not even see the field in Kelly's offense....and then again, it might be the perfect fit. I failed Fantasy Predictions 101 in college.
billsfan1959 Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 Personally, it's because we invested a first round pick on a kid with all skills of a franchise qb. IMO, he played for very bad offensive coaches (being hired as Jags' assistant coaches proves that). He was benched after 4 games for a scrub journeyman (Orton's QBR this year was basically equal to EJ's rookie year QBR). Plus, he seems like a great dude (not telling anyone he found his mother had cancer before his senior year and playing through it) who everyone seems ready to bury (media and fans a like). I just hope a coaching staff with real NFL experience and success can bring out the best in him. Because his upside, IMO, is higher than almost any QB on the market (his basement is higher too). I have some hope when I look at what Roman did with Alex Smith, who, IMO, is the kind of QB that fits a team with a strong defense and strong running game: 2009 (Before Roman) 11 games, completed 60 % of his passes, with 18 TDs, 12 INTs, and 81.5 Rating 2010 (Before Roman) 11 games, completed 59 % of his passes, with 14 TDs, 10 INTs, and 82.1 Rating 2011 (With Roman) 18 games, completed 61% of his passes, with 22 TDs, 5 INTs, and 92.1 Rating 2012 (With Roman) 9 games, completed 70% of his passes, with 13 TDs, 5 INTs, and 100.4 Rating
Garranimal Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 To be clear, I'm not more interested in EJ than the Bills. I'm more interested in the Bills taking, what I believe is, the correct course in finding a franchise QB. EJ's "rookie" numbers and performances have been very similar to many starting caliber QBs during their introductery years, basically short of just Wilson (who, no offense, is lucky he's on a loaded Seattle squad) and Luck. Yet so many are clawing to have him benched... but for who? Some other risky rookie who would need to develop? Some mediocre backup? Seriously, unless we somehow land Manning or Brees, or something, no one else available is clearly above EJ's *current* performance, and EJ still has the ability to develop and get better, hence why I would support the Bills continuing to develop their young QB. If EJ comes out and stinks it up during the preseason (and no, not just the first few camps and first preseason game with a new offensive system), and one of our other guys is *clearly* better, then by all means sit EJ. But if EJ and no name mediocre vet are neck and neck, I give it to EJ, because EJ has a higher ceiling at the moment. Good grief!
Dorkington Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 Good grief! Tell me where you disagree? We have a young guy with the physical and mental tools, and we have (insert mid level back up vet that is available to us), if both put out similar performances, why wouldn't you go with the younger guy who is more likely to improve, vs someone who is more likely plateued?
C.Biscuit97 Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 Do running backs come on and off the field? Do linebackers? Why is QB the only position on the field you have to suffer with to develop a guy? The defense rarely gets to actually tackle anyone in practice....and yet they develop without having to be starters. And as for the Chip Kelly question....I believe it is equally possible that he would still have the same issues. Hell, he might not even see the field in Kelly's offense....and then again, it might be the perfect fit. I failed Fantasy Predictions 101 in college. Sanchez was a train wreck and had good moments under Kelly. Some guys are better qb coaches than other. And are you being serious with the developing of Qbs being different than other positions? I hope not because it's painfully obviously why it is. I have some hope when I look at what Roman did with Alex Smith, who, IMO, is the kind of QB that fits a team with a strong defense and strong running game: 2009 (Before Roman) 11 games, completed 60 % of his passes, with 18 TDs, 12 INTs, and 81.5 Rating 2010 (Before Roman) 11 games, completed 59 % of his passes, with 14 TDs, 10 INTs, and 82.1 Rating 2011 (With Roman) 18 games, completed 61% of his passes, with 22 TDs, 5 INTs, and 92.1 Rating 2012 (With Roman) 9 games, completed 70% of his passes, with 13 TDs, 5 INTs, and 100.4 Rating Qbs are supposed to be as good as they're going to be for their whole career as rookies. That's what people here tell me.
metzelaars_lives Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 EJ's got this season to prove himself. Once that's up I'll be more than happy to jump on that wagon. Only time will tell. I can state for a fact that hasbeens like Orton, Fitzpartick and even a Cutler are NOT the solution in Buffalo. It is best to give EJ the reigns and see how he does. If the Bills would have never drafted Manuel and let Fitzpatrick play out his contract they would have made the playoffs last year. But they would not have won the Super Bowl with him. Perhaps you see that type of upside in Manuel. I personally do not.
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 Do running backs come on and off the field? Do linebackers? Why is QB the only position on the field you have to suffer with to develop a guy? The defense rarely gets to actually tackle anyone in practice....and yet they develop without having to be starters. And as for the Chip Kelly question....I believe it is equally possible that he would still have the same issues. Hell, he might not even see the field in Kelly's offense....and then again, it might be the perfect fit. I failed Fantasy Predictions 101 in college. yes, running backs come on and off the field as do linebackers et el. Who is on the field every play? did you guess QB? Sanchez Failed the Chip Kelly fast paced O and apparently so did Nick Foles. Like Dorkington asked Tell me where you disagree? What quantifiable tangibles do those PRO's, whom as I mentioned failed, have that EJ doesn't?
FireChan Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 ok....i was beginning to think he paid your mortgage or something. You seem to be REALLY attached to this kid. And please, for the love of god, please stop talking about upsides and ceilings.....they are the same as Nessie and Unicorns. It's all double speak and mythology. A guy is either good or not, he can either get better, plateau or regress. there is no measurable upside or ceiling, it is simply verbal fodder that cannot be proven, disproven or even argued. EJ's ceiling has decreased every game he played. He is now at an Orton potential, and he hasn't even reached that.
metzelaars_lives Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 when I see anything in reference to WGR, Joe Buscaglia I immediately throw it out the window as meaningless. The day I trust WGR to provide me with RELIABLE news is the day hell freezes over. Not being in Buffalo I don't hear much from WGR other than being on their e-mail list Because so much was invested in him and he was never given an opportunity to actually LEARN and PROGRESS under Marroone. don't pretend that most of the experienced QB's in the NFL could have run the fast paced Offense that Moron ran in 2013. Then the moron scrapped it the next season to start all over. So are you denying that Manuel looked horrendous during camp last year because Buscaglia, in addition to everyone else who watched a Bills practice, reported on it? So if Manuel is making great throws in practice and Buscaglia tells you about it on WGR, you won't believe that either?
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 If the Bills would have never drafted Manuel and let Fitzpatrick play out his contract they would have made the playoffs last year. But they would not have won the Super Bowl with him. Perhaps you see that type of upside in Manuel. I personally do not. Fitzpatrick was OK while playing a soft schedule, then the FO gave his $50Mil (was it) and then proceeded to stink up the joint when h played playoff caliber teams. If you read enough of what Moron said he never wanted EJ to start, he wanted EJ to sit and learn.
metzelaars_lives Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 Fitzpatrick was OK while playing a soft schedule, then the FO gave his $50Mil (was it) and then proceeded to stink up the joint when h played playoff caliber teams. If you read enough of what Moron said he never wanted EJ to start, he wanted EJ to sit and learn. He was better than Orton last year. All they needed was marginally better QB play than what Orton was able to give them, which I believe Fitzpatrick would have provided.
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 So are you denying that Manuel looked horrendous during camp last year because Buscaglia, in addition to everyone else who watched a Bills practice, reported on it? So if Manuel is making great throws in practice and Buscaglia tells you about it on WGR, you won't believe that either? all I saw from camp was highlights on ESPN or my Bills APP, I did however see EJ play in real games where for a rookie he played DAMN GOOD. Not every rookie will come out and be an instant star. With your standards being so high you will never be satisfied. which is confusing because you want instant success from the rookie QB's but you (and Chan and the other 2 Musketeers) don't expect that much from the seasoned pro's I'm done beating this dead horse today.
FireChan Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 all I saw from camp was highlights on ESPN or my Bills APP, I did however see EJ play in real games where for a rookie he played DAMN GOOD. Not every rookie will come out and be an instant star. With your standards being so high you will never be satisfied. which is confusing because you want instant success from the rookie QB's but you (and Chan and the other 2 Musketeers) don't expect that much from the seasoned pro's I'm done beating this dead horse today. EJ is not a rookie. Hasn't been for almost 2 years now. Pretty wild. So are you denying that Manuel looked horrendous during camp last year because Buscaglia, in addition to everyone else who watched a Bills practice, reported on it? So if Manuel is making great throws in practice and Buscaglia tells you about it on WGR, you won't believe that either? Of course. They just spouted that Marrone screwed EJ up and it's all his fault, then said that Marrone knew EJ should sit and learn and he was correct. As long as it supports the legend of 14 games, it's valid.
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 He was better than Orton last year. All they needed was marginally better QB play than what Orton was able to give them, which I believe Fitzpatrick would have provided. Last item FitzMagic in Buffalo was 6 - 10, 6 - 10, 6 - 10, and 4-12. not in that order. The EJ team was also 6-10 buh bye
Dorkington Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 Yeah, I think I'll just concede.... Hopefully Colt McKownford will get us to glory, I wish EJ the best of luck on his new team.
metzelaars_lives Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 all I saw from camp was highlights on ESPN or my Bills APP, I did however see EJ play in real games where for a rookie he played DAMN GOOD. Not every rookie will come out and be an instant star. With your standards being so high you will never be satisfied. which is confusing because you want instant success from the rookie QB's but you (and Chan and the other 2 Musketeers) don't expect that much from the seasoned pro's I'm done beating this dead horse today. I wouldn't say Manuel looked "damn good" for a rookie. He looked good enough that had he shown signs of progressing in camp and the preseason that I was comfortable giving him a shot in year 2. Even after he looked horrendous in the preseason, I was still OK with him starting last year. I was also fully in favor of them benching him exactly when they did. Were you not? Last item FitzMagic in Buffalo was 6 - 10, 6 - 10, 6 - 10, and 4-12. not in that order. The EJ team was also 6-10 buh bye Fitzpatrick did not have an elite defense and two legitimate NFL receivers. He also put up way better numbers than Manuel throwing to Stevie Johnson (who rose to prominence as soon as Fitzpatrick took over and has since disappeared), Donald Jones and David Nelson. That's a 7th rounder, UDFA and UDFA. In that order.
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