Dorkington Posted February 18, 2015 Posted February 18, 2015 Exactly and let's beclear. I don't think neither of us are guaranteeing anything with EJ. But it's funny how fans are much more patience and make excuses for other teams' players than the Bills. Most definitely not. He's a huge question mark. But so are our other options, and so are the upcoming rookies. EJ still has what is needed on paper, and we theoretically have a better offensive coaching staff now. Who knows, really.
Garranimal Posted February 18, 2015 Posted February 18, 2015 Between this and the Bradford discussion, it's quite clear that there is bias in terms of who is allowed to develop, and who is not. Precisely.....if you like the guy, he needs more time and is still technically a rookie and its all the stupid coaches fault, if you don't like him....well, you know. Both sides of the argument contain a fair amount of nonsense.
C.Biscuit97 Posted February 18, 2015 Posted February 18, 2015 Precisely.....if you like the guy, he needs more time and is still technically a rookie and its all the stupid coaches fault, if you don't like him....well, you know. Both sides of the argument contain a fair amount of nonsense. Good coaches don't become Jacksonville assistant coaches after going 9-7.
Dorkington Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 The Buffalo way of giving up on young QBs really early, random benching, bringing in mediocre re-treads, etc is not the way to get yourself a franchise player. If the Bills truly are done with EJ, I hope the next guy they draft they give a full three seasons to develop.
LB3 Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 The Buffalo way of giving up on young QBs really early, random benching, bringing in mediocre re-treads, etc is not the way to get yourself a franchise player. If the Bills truly are done with EJ, I hope the next guy they draft they give a full three seasons to develop. Nah, that guy stinks. He'll never have "it".
metzelaars_lives Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 The Buffalo way of giving up on young QBs really early, random benching, bringing in mediocre re-treads, etc is not the way to get yourself a franchise player. If the Bills truly are done with EJ, I hope the next guy they draft they give a full three seasons to develop. We could debate this all day. What exactly are you saying? That they gave up on Losman and Edwards too early? It's not irresponsible to recognize that a player does not have it a year or two into his career. So if Manuel comes out and sucks again all throughout camp, sucks again in the preseason and then sucks through four games, do you trot him out there all season while guys like Mario Williams are wasting years in their prime spinning their wheels? Sometimes you gotta see if a mediocre retread can at least get you to the playoffs. Meanwhile you draft another QB in the third round and see if he at least flashes in practice and/or the preseason. A guy like Russell Wilson looked special in camp and the preseason. Most of them show that they've got it in the offseason. Manuel has shown no glimpses that he has anything, ever.
billsfan1959 Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 You must have some inside info that no one else does. Is there anything else you can tell us about how Manuel was coached? Did Marrone tell him to be wildly inaccurate when he actually did attempt passes to wide receivers as well? I don't need any inside info to know that virtually every offensive player either (1) regressed, (2) failed to progress further, or (3) failed to develop to anywhere near their potential (in the case of rookies) under Marrone. I think, at this point, I'm willing to give Manuel the benefit of doubt as to the effect on his play of inept coaching...
metzelaars_lives Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 1) how many Carr games did you watch? You definitely missed the St. Louis game. 2) did you watch the SB? Brady completely like one pass that was over 5 yards in air. This is simply a ridiculous statement. I don't need any inside info to know that virtually every offensive player either (1) regressed, (2) failed to progress further, or (3) failed to develop to anywhere near their potential (in the case of rookies) under Marrone. I think, at this point, I'm willing to give Manuel the benefit of doubt as to the effect on his play of inept coaching... Sure. I would disagree with respect to Watkins, Woods and Hogan but otherwise, OK. This does not change the fact that Hackett did not encourage Manuel to check down "all the time."
billsfan1959 Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 Sure. I would disagree with respect to Watkins, Woods and Hogan but otherwise, OK. This does not change the fact that Hackett did not encourage Manuel to check down "all the time." I would not say that Woods was better this year than he was last year, or that Watkins achieved anywhere near his potential. Hogan didn't previously play so I have no idea. Those guys aside, you can look at the grades on every offensive player on the Bills that played last year, and virtually every single one regressed. As far as I am concerned, that is coaching. Also, while I do not have any inside info, and going solely off from what I observed, I do not have much doubt in my mind that many of Manuel's issues, including the choices to "check down" rather than go down field with the ball were, at the very least, influenced by a coach, whose conservative tendencies included things like choosing to punt from the opponent's 35-40 yard line, late in a critical game, rather than try for the first down....
C.Biscuit97 Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 This is simply a ridiculous statement. Sure. I would disagree with respect to Watkins, Woods and Hogan but otherwise, OK. This does not change the fact that Hackett did not encourage Manuel to check down "all the time." Um, no it's not. He had 328 yards passing on 50 attempts. That translates to 6.56 ypa. Furthermore, a lot of that was yards after the catch. http://www.bostonglobe.com/sports/2015/02/04/patriots-super-bowl-win-over-seahawks-was-one-for-little-guys/HMxKQfqoS8llw0S5ZsO57J/story.html Of their 328 yards in the passing game, they gained 165 after the catch — slightly more than half. Vereen caught 11 of 12 passes thrown his way for 64 yards (47 after the catch), Edelman caught 9 of 12 for 109 yards (47 after the catch), and Amendola caught 5 of 7 for 48 yards (41 after the catch). So that means 163 of his yards were from passes through in the air. Thus, he averaged 3.26 air yards per attempt. I'm smart, don't try to pretend like I'm not. This idea of checking down is a bad thing is mind blowingly dumb. You take what the defense gives you. A lot of people have a hard on for Sam Bradford. His career ypa: 6.3. Trent "Captain Checkdown" Edwards: 6.5.
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 the anyone but EJ crew is still going at it huh? LOL Exactly and let's be clear. I don't think neither of us are guaranteeing anything with EJ.But it's funny how fans are much more patience and make excuses for other teams' players than the Bills. I think I posted those 2 points just the other day...
C.Biscuit97 Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 We could debate this all day. What exactly are you saying? That they gave up on Losman and Edwards too early? It's not irresponsible to recognize that a player does not have it a year or two into his career. So if Manuel comes out and sucks again all throughout camp, sucks again in the preseason and then sucks through four games, do you trot him out there all season while guys like Mario Williams are wasting years in their prime spinning their wheels? Sometimes you gotta see if a mediocre retread can at least get you to the playoffs. Meanwhile you draft another QB in the third round and see if he at least flashes in practice and/or the preseason. A guy like Russell Wilson looked special in camp and the preseason. Most of them show that they've got it in the offseason. Manuel has shown no glimpses that he has anything, ever. EJ Manuel had a qb rating of 112 his rookie preseason. http://www.nfl.com/player/ejmanuel/2539228/gamelogs?season=2013 Russell Wilson had a 110.3 qb rating his rookie year. http://www.nfl.com/player/russellwilson/2532975/gamelogs?season=2012 Manuel and Wilson's stat were very similar through their first 8 starts. Manuel should have beat the Pats in his first NFL starts (2tds, 0 ints after missing half of his first training camp) but the defense blew the lead. Manuel lost a game against ATL where the team scored 31 points and he twice had potential game winning drives wiped out by fumbles. Does Seattle lose a game where they score 31 points? My God, they beat Aaron Rodgers with 4 INTs from Wilson and beat Brees where Wilson had less than 100 yards passing. This isn't to say Manuel will ever be is as good as Wilson. But to pretend like he is some awful young QB and not at a place where similar young QBs have been is flat out stupid.
metzelaars_lives Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 I would not say that Woods was better this year than he was last year, or that Watkins achieved anywhere near his potential. Hogan didn't previously play so I have no idea. Those guys aside, you can look at the grades on every offensive player on the Bills that played last year, and virtually every single one regressed. As far as I am concerned, that is coaching. Also, while I do not have any inside info, and going solely off from what I observed, I do not have much doubt in my mind that many of Manuel's issues, including the choices to "check down" rather than go down field with the ball were, at the very least, influenced by a coach, whose conservative tendencies included things like choosing to punt from the opponent's 35-40 yard line, late in a critical game, rather than try for the first down.... Woods was definitely a better football player this year, he just didn't have people who could get him the football.
C.Biscuit97 Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 the anyone but EJ crew is still going at it huh? LOL I think I posted those 2 points just the other day... It's jsut funny how everyone makes excuses for Carr, Sanchez, Locker, and Bradford yet bury Manuel. The funniest thing is if the Eagles drafted him and he got to play when Foles got hurt, he'd be a QB people would want here.
metzelaars_lives Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 (edited) the anyone but EJ crew is still going at it huh? LOL I think I posted those 2 points just the other day... OK. The EJ will prevail crowd has won this battle but I'll be back. I will talk to you again this summer when every day on WGR, Joe Buscaglia reports that EJ is having difficulty with his progressions, looks timid and inaccurate and is getting thoroughly outplayed by the mediocre retread they bring in that everyone complains about. I hope I'm wrong. Edited February 19, 2015 by metzelaars_lives
Garranimal Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 OK. The EJ will prevail crowd has won this battle but I'll be back. I will talk to you again this summer when every day on WGR, Joe Buscaglia reports that EJ is having difficulty with his progressions, looks timid and inaccurate and is getting thoroughly outplayed by the mediocre retread they bring in that everyone complains about. I hope I'm wrong. I am still trying to figure out why any Bills fan would have more personally invested in EJ than any other QB on the roster? EJ (and every other QB on the roster this year, last year and the year before for that matter) has done absolutely nothing to endear himself to the buffalo fanbase.....IMO that is. i love me some Fred, EJ could retire tomorrow and it wouldn't matter to me.
C.Biscuit97 Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 I am still trying to figure out why any Bills fan would have more personally invested in EJ than any other QB on the roster? EJ (and every other QB on the roster this year, last year and the year before for that matter) has done absolutely nothing to endear himself to the buffalo fanbase.....IMO that is. i love me some Fred, EJ could retire tomorrow and it wouldn't matter to me. Personally, it's because we invested a first round pick on a kid with all skills of a franchise qb. IMO, he played for very bad offensive coaches (being hired as Jags' assistant coaches proves that). He was benched after 4 games for a scrub journeyman (Orton's QBR this year was basically equal to EJ's rookie year QBR). Plus, he seems like a great dude (not telling anyone he found his mother had cancer before his senior year and playing through it) who everyone seems ready to bury (media and fans a like). I just hope a coaching staff with real NFL experience and success can bring out the best in him. Because his upside, IMO, is higher than almost any QB on the market (his basement is higher too).
billstein22 Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 I am still trying to figure out why any Bills fan would have more personally invested in EJ than any other QB on the roster? EJ (and every other QB on the roster this year, last year and the year before for that matter) has done absolutely nothing to endear himself to the buffalo fanbase.....IMO that is. i love me some Fred, EJ could retire tomorrow and it wouldn't matter to me. Because he was a first round pick (though 4th- or 5th-round talent) and they want to justify our front office making a laughably stupid decision in drafting him. They fail to realize that EJ is a sunk cost.
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 OK. The EJ will prevail crowd has won this battle but I'll be back. I will talk to you again this summer when every day on WGR, Joe Buscaglia reports that EJ is having difficulty with his progressions, looks timid and inaccurate and is getting thoroughly outplayed by the mediocre retread they bring in that everyone complains about. I hope I'm wrong. EJ's got this season to prove himself. Once that's up I'll be more than happy to jump on that wagon. Only time will tell. I can state for a fact that hasbeens like Orton, Fitzpartick and even a Cutler are NOT the solution in Buffalo. It is best to give EJ the reigns and see how he does.
Garranimal Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 Personally, it's because we invested a first round pick on a kid with all skills of a franchise qb. IMO, he played for very bad offensive coaches (being hired as Jags' assistant coaches proves that). He was benched after 4 games for a scrub journeyman (Orton's QBR this year was basically equal to EJ's rookie year QBR). Plus, he seems like a great dude (not telling anyone he found his mother had cancer before his senior year and playing through it) who everyone seems ready to bury (media and fans a like). I just hope a coaching staff with real NFL experience and success can bring out the best in him. Because his upside, IMO, is higher than almost any QB on the market (his basement is higher too). ok....i was beginning to think he paid your mortgage or something. You seem to be REALLY attached to this kid. And please, for the love of god, please stop talking about upsides and ceilings.....they are the same as Nessie and Unicorns. It's all double speak and mythology. A guy is either good or not, he can either get better, plateau or regress. there is no measurable upside or ceiling, it is simply verbal fodder that cannot be proven, disproven or even argued.
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