YoloinOhio Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) The perception of Derek Carr is that he is a franchise QB in the making in Oakland, and the Raiders should build around him. The perception of EJ is he is a bust in the making in Buffalo and the Bills should replace him. I saw this tweet and it made me think that while most of us have reservations about EJ it doesn't make much sense to give up on him this early. @ChrisTrapasso: Reminder: #Bills QB EJ Manuel has played fewer games than Derek Carr. Manuel better comp %, TD %, YPA, QB rating. Carr better sack %, INT % The expectations around these two QBs were very different. The Raiders were rebuilding and not expected to win many games. There wasn't pressure on Carr to win. He wasn't asked to play not to lose, IMO. He didn't win his first game until November. He won 3 games total out of 16. None on the road. EJ's situation called for him to win now. He was not looked at as a developing player he was looked at immediately as the guy holding the team back because he was... Developing. Not saying that's wrong but the timing was not in his favor like it was for Guys like Carr and Bortles. They are not expected to be great right away because their teams are rebuilding. The Bills were already built. And coaches and GMs felt their jobs were on the line with new ownership. They didn't have time for a rookie QB. I wonder if roles were reversed - and EJ was drafted last year by Oakland and Carr by Buffalo, would the perceptions of the two players be the same? This is a bad time to give up on a young QB who has won games for you, because of the lack of obvious better options out there to replace him. I may be in the minority but I think this is a new start for EJ that he needed. If he can't win in this new system, it can be time to pull the plug. I don't know if Marrone's system was the best for him. He wasn't invested in developing EJ. I understand why they put Orton in when they did and agreed with the move at the time. But EJ is young and has upside. I feel if the offense was tailored more to his strengths he could win with this team. I think Roman is the right guy. Edited February 17, 2015 by YoloinOhio
Beef Jerky Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) Carr probably would have helped this team to the playoffs... He would have had great WRs to throw to, hell the #1 WR on the Raiders would have been inactive for the Bills roster. Edited February 17, 2015 by Beef Jerky
YoloinOhio Posted February 17, 2015 Author Posted February 17, 2015 Carr probably would have helped this team to the playoffs... He would have had great WRs to throw to, hell the #1 WR on the Raiders would have been inactive for the Bills roster.why do you think that Carr would have made the playoffs here? I don't agree James Jones would have been inactive.
FireChan Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 EJ's situation was not to "win now" until his second season. And it's partially EJ's fault he didn't play much in his first. And it's also the circumstance of the game that if you get hurt, it's tough toenails for you. Just ask Locker. Carr's team also sucks. And if Carr in his second season shows up afraid to throw a pass to anyone but his RB, his head will be called for. That's the long and short of it.
Maddog69 Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) Carr probably would have helped this team to the playoffs... He would have had great WRs to throw to, hell the #1 WR on the Raiders would have been inactive for the Bills roster. Based on what? He helped his team to 3 wins. He completed less than 60% of his passes in 8 games. Had a QB rating under 75 in 8 games. I think the "perception" follows that standard rule here: Our starting QB sucks and every QB around the league is better, until he becomes our starter and then he sucks. Edited February 17, 2015 by Maddog69
John from Riverside Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 The stats dont really tell the numbers on these two qbs There are two games that are always on in my house......the bills (because its MY HOUSE...) and the raiders....because every other family member in my house is a raiders fan. Carr plays games like he wants to win them........he throws the ball downfield.......and he was doing it from day one. EJ Manuel...I root for him but he is not as good as Carr....maybe that will change? I dont know. The bills are much closer to the playoffs then the raiders are........we need a QB that will win (or not lose us games) right now
Beef Jerky Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 Based on what? He helped his team to 3 wins. He completed less than 60% of his passes in 8 games. Had a QB rating under 75 in 8 games. I think the "perception" follows that standard rule here: Our starting QB sucks and every QB around the league is better, until he becomes our starter and then he sucks. Think of the teams you are comparing...
YoloinOhio Posted February 17, 2015 Author Posted February 17, 2015 The stats dont really tell the numbers on these two qbs There are two games that are always on in my house......the bills (because its MY HOUSE...) and the raiders....because every other family member in my house is a raiders fan. Carr plays games like he wants to win them........he throws the ball downfield.......and he was doing it from day one. EJ Manuel...I root for him but he is not as good as Carr....maybe that will change? I dont know. The bills are much closer to the playoffs then the raiders are........we need a QB that will win (or not lose us games) right now I agree he throws a nice deep ball but EJ did too his rookie year. I think he was held back his 2nd year, you could tell he was afraid to throw. Why? I think he was coached that way. The bills game at Oakland this year reminded me of the Carolina game at Buffalo last year. The Panthers were a playoff team and beaten by a rookie QB at the end.
Chuck Wagon Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 EJ was a first round pick, which comes with different expectations. We also have a lot more talent than the Raiders, when the cupboard is empty, you look for any bright spots and get excited about them. When you look like a team ready to win, you look at the bad spots and complain about them.
YoloinOhio Posted February 17, 2015 Author Posted February 17, 2015 Think of the teams you are comparing...Carr has worse QB stats, yet you are convinced he would have lead the Bills to the playoffs.
Beef Jerky Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 Carr has worse QB stats, yet you are convinced he would have lead the Bills to the playoffs. I like how my word help gets turned into "lead" Like I said look at the teams you are comparing. What WR on the Raiders would start on the Bills? Hell the Bills even have the better TE...
1billsfan Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 EJ's situation was not to "win now" until his second season. And it's partially EJ's fault he didn't play much in his first. And it's also the circumstance of the game that if you get hurt, it's tough toenails for you. Just ask Locker. Carr's team also sucks. And if Carr in his second season shows up afraid to throw a pass to anyone but his RB, his head will be called for. That's the long and short of it. My theory is that EJ Manuel was told not to take chances and not to run. Marrone basically cut off his you-know-what's. Before you can become a good to great QB you need to be allowed to become a good to great QB. All of the greats were allowed to become QBs by letting them throw the ball without reprisals. I had never seen a more conservative offense than I did the Buffalo Bills 2014 offense. I think that if Roman lets EJ "let er rip" and run it when he has to and lets him sink or swim in a "big boy" offense with no training wheels, that Manuel will have a jaw dropping "where the heck did that come from?" season. IMO the Buffalo Bills biggest 2015 offseason move was made by Doug Marrone.
Maddog69 Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 The stats dont really tell the numbers on these two qbs There are two games that are always on in my house......the bills (because its MY HOUSE... ) and the raiders....because every other family member in my house is a raiders fan. Carr plays games like he wants to win them........he throws the ball downfield.......and he was doing it from day one. EJ Manuel...I root for him but he is not as good as Carr....maybe that will change? I dont know. The bills are much closer to the playoffs then the raiders are........we need a QB that will win (or not lose us games) right now Different offensive game plans. The deep ball was never a part of Marrone's offense.
YoloinOhio Posted February 17, 2015 Author Posted February 17, 2015 I like how my word help gets turned into "lead" Like I said look at the teams you are comparing. What WR on the Raiders would start on the Bills? Hell the Bills even have the better TE... Help, lead... Again why are you convinced the Bills make the playoffs with Carr? I'm just asking. And certainly James Jones could start on most teams. If we had him he would be in Woods' role. We can't say who he would start "over" here because if we had him we wouldn't have all the other guys too.
Chuck Wagon Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 I agree he throws a nice deep ball but EJ did too his rookie year. I think he was held back his 2nd year, you could tell he was afraid to throw. Why? I think he was coached that way. The bills game at Oakland this year reminded me of the Carolina game at Buffalo last year. The Panthers were a playoff team and beaten by a rookie QB at the end. I do agree coaching is a lot of it. Carr's team is devoid of talent, so there's no reason not to tell him to just cut it loose. It's pretty obvious that Marrone's approach with EJ was "our defense is really good, don't screw this up kid", when you are constantly getting that message it wrecks your confidence and you start thinking instead of reading and reacting. I've said it before, but EJ reminds me a lot of Alex Smith early in his career. Smith had heard the message over and over again about "don't screw it up" and he said it wrecked him, nearly pushing him out of the league. Finally he told himself if he kept down his current path his career would be over, so there wasn't anything to lose and he cut it loose. I do think there are major confidence issues with EJ right now, something that was alluded to before the Bears game, where all the players said EJ's speech was incredibly out of character and fired up the whole team. All players want a vocal confident guy at QB because he's the engine for the team. When you've got a leader who is timid and afraid, it will permeate the whole roster. Hopefully Rex and Roman are experienced enough to see that and put him in situations where he can succeed to build himself back up. We all know EJ has all the physical tools to succeed, it's mental at this point.
Beef Jerky Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 Help, lead... Again why are you convinced the Bills make the playoffs with Carr? I'm just asking. And certainly James Jones could start on most teams. If we had him he would be in Woods' role. We can't say who he would start "over" here because if we had him we wouldn't have all the other guys too.Probably now equals "convinced" so hard to have a conversation here sometimes... B.c he showed much more throwing the ball then EJ did. If all you are doing is looking at stats then that is why you are losing this conversation... Not to mention changing everything I say into something else.
Tintonfallsbillsfan Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 My biggest long term issue with E.j is that he has never been an accurate passer. I don't know if that gets fixed. I can see him improving on reading defenses ect but he needs to hit open receivers
GunnerBill Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 I am with Yolo. The perceptions are different and I don't think justifiably so. Let me go on record as saying I like Carr. I think he is a guy who can go on to be a good Quarterback in this league.... but so far he simply has not proved himself to be better than EJ Manuel and if we had sat through Derek Carr's rookie season then this fanbase with its obssession with finding the true heir to Jim Kelly would be at best split down the middle on him and the usual suspects would be crying for us to draft another Quarterback. Carr had some very good games where he showed flashes of potential franchise Quarterback ability. However, he had some stinkers too. Long spells in games against Miami, San Diego and St Louis just off the top of my head where they couldn't move the ball and he was missing open guys. They were performances every bit as awful as EJ in Tampa and Pittsburgh and this year in Houston. But he is a rookie. You accept that there will be some bad with the good and the stats comparison demonstrates that. I actually think Carr will prove to be better than EJ, but that is based on nothing more than the awarding of style points so far. There is nothing concrete you can point to. My post is not to try and argue for EJ Manuel to be given the reigns as our starting Quarterback. I think personally he is drinking in the last chance saloon. He needs to win the competition in camp and then show a marked step forward this year if he is going to continue being considered as anything more than a serviceable backup Quarterback in the NFL. Rather my point is that perception is King of reality in this situation and the Buffalo Bills have been starved so long at the Quarterback position that our expectations of what the vast majority of rookies look like has become warped. We crave things from elsewhere based on highlight tape and the odd game of evidence believing that the grass is always greener and that there is an automatic quicker fix to our Quarterback problem. EJ Manuel is probably not our answer as a franchise Quarterback.... but given where this fanbase is at the Quarterback position I am not sure any rookie short of an Andrew Luck type generational talent would be given the time and the opportunity to prove themselves the answer. If we had Derek Carr there would be people here calling him a bust already. That, in my view, is a huge problem.
YoloinOhio Posted February 17, 2015 Author Posted February 17, 2015 (edited) I do agree coaching is a lot of it. Carr's team is devoid of talent, so there's no reason not to tell him to just cut it loose. It's pretty obvious that Marrone's approach with EJ was "our defense is really good, don't screw this up kid", when you are constantly getting that message it wrecks your confidence and you start thinking instead of reading and reacting. I've said it before, but EJ reminds me a lot of Alex Smith early in his career. Smith had heard the message over and over again about "don't screw it up" and he said it wrecked him, nearly pushing him out of the league. Finally he told himself if he kept down his current path his career would be over, so there wasn't anything to lose and he cut it loose. I do think there are major confidence issues with EJ right now, something that was alluded to before the Bears game, where all the players said EJ's speech was incredibly out of character and fired up the whole team. All players want a vocal confident guy at QB because he's the engine for the team. When you've got a leader who is timid and afraid, it will permeate the whole roster. Hopefully Rex and Roman are experienced enough to see that and put him in situations where he can succeed to build himself back up. We all know EJ has all the physical tools to succeed, it's mental at this point. Well said. If there was an obvious upgrade to EJ at our disposal, based on his body of work thus far, I would say go for it and his development with this team is secondary. But there isn't, from what I can tell. I have hopes that we sign someone who can compete for a starting job but who the heck knows what will happen with this group of FAs and the draft class is crap. EJ has a chance to develop under Roman, I believe, and we shouldn't assume he is not viable just because of the circumstances surrounding him the first 2 years. I love that Roman coached Alex Smith because j think that's a good comparison in terms of his psyche at that point in his career. Edited February 17, 2015 by YoloinOhio
1billsfan Posted February 17, 2015 Posted February 17, 2015 The stats dont really tell the numbers on these two qbs There are two games that are always on in my house......the bills (because its MY HOUSE... ) and the raiders....because every other family member in my house is a raiders fan. Carr plays games like he wants to win them........he throws the ball downfield.......and he was doing it from day one. EJ Manuel...I root for him but he is not as good as Carr....maybe that will change? I dont know. The bills are much closer to the playoffs then the raiders are........we need a QB that will win (or not lose us games) right now Is it EJ's fault that Marrone told him to check down all the time? I think it's been well established that Marrone had a major hand in EJ's timid play. I think that EJ will have a huge chip on his shoulder this year. I'd be surprised if anyone beat him out in training camp. Manuel will want to prove that !@#$% idiot Marrone was the problem. If he doesn't show this attitude then you can stick a fork in him, he's done. His team mates will have no respect for him if he doesn't appear to be a man possessed to become the starter this year.
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