BuffaloBillsForever Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 anyone who is negative on Sammy simply is not paying attention. People are not negative on Sammy but the idea of using two first round picks and a 4th to draft him was a major oversight from management. This opinion is not hindsight with a lot of people either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Still arguing this? Sammy was well worth it. He saves at a minimum 4 INT's on bad throws by KO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 People are not negative on Sammy but the idea of using two first round picks and a 4th to draft him was a major oversight from management. This opinion is not hindsight with a lot of people either. Well there are those of us that dont consider it a major oversight It all depends on what impact Sammy Watkins has for THIS team.......it does not matter who other teams drafted or what the impact is for THOSE teams......only ours. If Sammy turns into a pro bowl regular and one of the best WR in the league (very possible) then yes it was a good trade......teams give up ENTIRE drafts for one player that ends up being average or busts....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maddog69 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Well there are those of us that dont consider it a major oversight It all depends on what impact Sammy Watkins has for THIS team.......it does not matter who other teams drafted or what the impact is for THOSE teams......only ours. If Sammy turns into a pro bowl regular and one of the best WR in the league (very possible) then yes it was a good trade......teams give up ENTIRE drafts for one player that ends up being average or busts....... I disagree with this. You cannot look at it in a vacuum. In my opinion, it is more than fair to look at the other players taken and speculate if our scouts should have been able to tell that the aggressive move up for Sammy was not necessary because similar talent was available without giving up so much. We could certainly use that extra #1 pick this year to find a OG, TE, RB or even QB. Yes, Sammy is probably going to be good, but OBJ and qa stud at another position of need would be better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beerball Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Yep. its the footwork, something sammy has trouble with. Sammy isnt an elite route runner. Stevie is, Megatron is, ODB is. Luckily its something that can be taught. Speed isnt, and luckily, Sammy's got plenty of that... wow, that's so wrong. SJ is an "unconventional" route runner, not an elite route runner. A QB knows where an elite route runner is going to be at the exact time he needs to deliver the ball. That aint SJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsForever Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) Well there are those of us that dont consider it a major oversight It all depends on what impact Sammy Watkins has for THIS team.......it does not matter who other teams drafted or what the impact is for THOSE teams......only ours. If Sammy turns into a pro bowl regular and one of the best WR in the league (very possible) then yes it was a good trade......teams give up ENTIRE drafts for one player that ends up being average or busts....... And there are lots of people that think it is an oversight especially when there was not a proven QB on the roster. It's called an opinion and it is a relevant discussion to be had. Even though Watkins had a good year, the overall impact showed a regression in the Bills offense. Also, teams use a single draft pick all the time on players that end up great players and all-stars. Odell Beckham only cost 1. Let's be clear here though, I wouldn't have drafted Beckham, it would have been Zach Martin. Edited February 13, 2015 by BuffaloBillsForever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 And there are lots of people that think it is an oversight especially when there was not a proven QB on the roster. It's called an opinion and it is a relevant discussion to be had. Even though Watkins had a good year, the overall impact showed a regression in the Bills offense. Also, teams use a single draft pick all the time on players that end up great players and all-stars. Odell Beckham only cost 1. Let's be clear here though, I wouldn't have drafted Beckham, it would have been Zach Martin. And there are those of us who understand that there is not a proven QB to be had.....and that the 19th overall pick would not have netted us that QB. The regression in the bills offense is not because of Sammy.....as a matter of fact we probably lose more games with him not there as he did make key plays. And the NEXT choice was Ebron who totally struggled in his rookie season which would have caused us to lose even more games because Sammy and his production would not have been there. Odel Beckham was not going to be the pick as per multiple sources.....and Zach Martin a OL would not have had the impact on the team that Sammy Watkins had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsForever Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 And there are those of us who understand that there is not a proven QB to be had.....and that the 19th overall pick would not have netted us that QB. The regression in the bills offense is not because of Sammy.....as a matter of fact we probably lose more games with him not there as he did make key plays. And the NEXT choice was Ebron who totally struggled in his rookie season which would have caused us to lose even more games because Sammy and his production would not have been there. Odel Beckham was not going to be the pick as per multiple sources.....and Zach Martin a OL would not have had the impact on the team that Sammy Watkins had. Did I mention anything about a QB in this thread? No. But perhaps a 1st round pick in this years draft could be used in a trade for a QB. Nope. The regression is not because of Sammy but the overall impact from the 2013 to 2014 season the offense regressed. It doesn't matter if Odell Beckam would be the pick or not. I wouldn't have drafted him either. How can you say Zach Martin wouldn't have an impact as much as Sammy Watkins with such certainty? You are just making things up out of thin air. The Bills o-line was one of the worst in the league and the Bills didn't have a single 100 yard rusher all season. The o-line was a disaster. I can't tell you how much of an impact he would have (just like you can't tell me) but certainly he would have IMO been the better pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PortlandiaEast Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Haha reposting your own post. I love it. Sometimes I want to repost my own posts... but I dont want to come off like "PAY ATTENTION TO MY OPINION!!" kind of guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Did I mention anything about a QB in this thread? No. But perhaps a 1st round pick in this years draft could be used in a trade for a QB. Nope. The regression is not because of Sammy but the overall impact from the 2013 to 2014 season the offense regressed. It doesn't matter if Odell Beckam would be the pick or not. I wouldn't have drafted him either. How can you say Zach Martin wouldn't have an impact as much as Sammy Watkins with such certainty? You are just making things up out of thin air. The Bills o-line was one of the worst in the league and the Bills didn't have a single 100 yard rusher all season. The o-line was a disaster. I can't tell you how much of an impact he would have (just like you can't tell me) but certainly he would have IMO been the better pick. "And there are lots of people that think it is an oversight especially when there was not a proven QB on the roster." Do you not read what you write before you post? Once again.....because Sammy is not the reason for the regression then the comment that the offense regressed is a moot point I am making NOTHING out of thin air......every offensive linemen on this team REGRESSED under the Marrone leadership and you expect a rookie to come in and magically pick up everyones play........I present that Zach's developement would have been HINDERED by what was Marrone and his OC at that time. However.....Sammy's impact on the offense was proven...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsForever Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Haha reposting your own post. I love it. Sometimes I want to repost my own posts... but I dont want to come off like "PAY ATTENTION TO MY OPINION!!" kind of guy. As Doug Whaley wanted out of our WR, Odell Beckham had a "generational" type season for a rookie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 As Doug Whaley wanted out of our WR, Odell Beckham had a "generational" type season for a rookie. - Who was throwing to him - How many times was he thrown at - While he was thrown at that many times.....what was the record of his team? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsForever Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 "And there are lots of people that think it is an oversight especially when there was not a proven QB on the roster." Do you not read what you write before you post? Once again.....because Sammy is not the reason for the regression then the comment that the offense regressed is a moot point I am making NOTHING out of thin air......every offensive linemen on this team REGRESSED under the Marrone leadership and you expect a rookie to come in and magically pick up everyones play........I present that Zach's developement would have been HINDERED by what was Marrone and his OC at that time. However.....Sammy's impact on the offense was proven...... You still don't get it (i never made a point about drafting a QB in this thread) and you are still making things up out of thin air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 You still don't get it (i never made a point about drafting a QB in this thread) and you are still making things up out of thin air. OK then.... I point out that you did in fact reference it.......the response is "you still dont get it" nice bail out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsForever Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) OK then.... I point out that you did in fact reference it.......the response is "you still dont get it" nice bail out Where did I mention it again in this thread? - Who was throwing to him - How many times was he thrown at - While he was thrown at that many times.....what was the record of his team? - So trading up for a WR without a proven QB was not a good idea then? Oversight from management? - He was thrown to more. Yup. Go back to point one. Management oversight? - Does Odell Beckham play defense and special teams too? Edited February 13, 2015 by BuffaloBillsForever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) Hello folks, Some have been dissapointed by what Sammy Watkins did last year and this has caused him to be referred to as a bust or not as good as Evans or Beckham. THeres a big factor why Sammy didnt put up similar numbers to those guys that i think has not been recognized. Yes sammy had bruised ribs for 8 games which played a role and the QB issue also was a definite issue. I am curious as to how good of years those to WR would of had facing, Revis twice, Grimes twice, Talib, JosephMunnerlyn/Rhodes, Haden, Tillman, Tramon Williams, tarell brown etc.... these are all top CB in the NFL. Beckham and Evans did not have a stable of CB like that to deal with. So personally i think Sammy is gonna become better and with a more experienced OC, he will be put in a positon to flourish. Just watch the magic hapen and enjoy Beckham played the entire year with two torn hamstrings in his right leg and blew up the best CB in the league and even admittedly so by an individual that doesn't give credit to anyone (Sherman). Odell Beckham had a Randy Moss rookie campaign and was injured the entire time...that is incredible.That was a nice response. Too often people only dig just far enough to support their point. My first thought after reading the OP was "What does he know about WRs other than Sammy?" But back to the question of what kind of year Sammy had. First, what was given up for him in terms of draft picks isn't in part of the equation. That's a sunk cost and he isn't at fault for any overpayment. That belongs in discussions about GMs. Sammy nearly had 1000 yards, which is very good. I like that. What I don't like is that he was inconsistent getting there (see link to game stats). He either lit it up or disappeared. Four games of 117 yards or more, but 9 games of 35 yards or less. The big games are encouraging, but the poor games are very concerning. Sure, better QB play should help and hopefully we see that. But I am not one to assume that everything was on the QB. I think the jury is out there. Better QB play (and OL play) will give him a chance to prove himself further and I hope he does. After the season I put him as a top 25 WR because that's what I think he earned. He has opportunity to be better and move up as long as the Bills get someone decent to throw him the ball. http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/gamelog/_/id/16725/sammy-watkins Edited February 13, 2015 by BarleyNY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 That was a nice response. Too often people only dig just far enough to support their point. My first thought after reading the OP was "What does he know about WRs other than Sammy?" But back to the question of what kind of year Sammy had. First, what was given up for him in terms of draft picks isn't in part of the equation. That's a sunk cost and he isn't at fault for any overpayment. That belongs in discussions about GMs. Sammy nearly had 1000 yards, which is very good. I like that. What I don't like is that he was inconsistent getting there (see link to game stats). He either lit it up or disappeared. Four games of 117 yards or more, but 9 games of 35 yards or less. The big games are encouraging, but the poor games are very concerning. Sure, better QB play should help and hopefully we see that. But I am not one to assume that everything was on the QB. I think the jury is out there. Better QB play (and OL play) will give him a chance to prove himself further and I hope he does. After the season I put him as a top 25 WR because that's what I think he earned. He has opportunity to be better and move up as long as the Bills get someone decent to throw him the ball. http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/gamelog/_/id/16725/sammy-watkins I love how people give a brief wave at the QB position like is....well ya he didnt have a QB but he should have done better YOU CANNOT BE CONSISTANT WHEN YOU DO NOT HAVE AT LEAST AVERAGE QB PLAY......the wr is dependent on someone else on the other end throwing him a catchable ball This isnt a issue at all though......you listen to Rex Ryan and he knows what he has in Sammy Watkins. We wont be making the mistakes that Marrone and Hackett made last year. Where did I mention it again in this thread? - So trading up for a WR without a proven QB was not a good idea then? Oversight from management? - He was thrown to more. Yup. Go back to point one. Management oversight? - Does Odell Beckham play defense and special teams too? OK then - Since we dont have the QB as you pointed out what do you suggest that we do?......Who should we have drafted? Lets keep in mind that they went OL in the second round so they would not have taken Martin. Do you suggest sitting on our hands because we dont have the QB? - Its not management oversight that Sammy didnt get enough balls thrown his way....that is a COACHING issue......Mgt drafts the talent.....coaches make the calls on the field. You cannot blame Whaley because Marrone and Hacket dont use the talent he has given them correctly. - Your third point is weak....your pointing to ODB's fantastic stats.....I tell you he is on a losing team.....your like "its not ODB's fault they are losing" well exactly how do you know that? How do you know it isnt because they didnt work their other offensive weapons enough to have a balanced attack and forced the ball to ODB too much? Didnt run the ball enough? Those things all come into play. The funny thing about all this.......I actually like ODB and his game. No reason to hate on him but people are such idiots about the views on Sammy Watkins that it forces people to downtalk ODB Which frankly we shouldnt have to do. Let Sammy's play stand on its own. He did excellent for a rookie WR even with all of the Offensive struggles overall.......and being hurt most of the year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsForever Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) I love how people give a brief wave at the QB position like is....well ya he didnt have a QB but he should have done better YOU CANNOT BE CONSISTANT WHEN YOU DO NOT HAVE AT LEAST AVERAGE QB PLAY......the wr is dependent on someone else on the other end throwing him a catchable ball This isnt a issue at all though......you listen to Rex Ryan and he knows what he has in Sammy Watkins. We wont be making the mistakes that Marrone and Hackett made last year. OK then - Since we dont have the QB as you pointed out what do you suggest that we do?......Who should we have drafted? Lets keep in mind that they went OL in the second round so they would not have taken Martin. Do you suggest sitting on our hands because we dont have the QB? - Its not management oversight that Sammy didnt get enough balls thrown his way....that is a COACHING issue......Mgt drafts the talent.....coaches make the calls on the field. You cannot blame Whaley because Marrone and Hacket dont use the talent he has given them correctly. - Your third point is weak....your pointing to ODB's fantastic stats.....I tell you he is on a losing team.....your like "its not ODB's fault they are losing" well exactly how do you know that? How do you know it isnt because they didnt work their other offensive weapons enough to have a balanced attack and forced the ball to ODB too much? Didnt run the ball enough? Those things all come into play. The funny thing about all this.......I actually like ODB and his game. No reason to hate on him but people are such idiots about the views on Sammy Watkins that it forces people to downtalk ODB Which frankly we shouldnt have to do. Let Sammy's play stand on its own. He did excellent for a rookie WR even with all of the Offensive struggles overall.......and being hurt most of the year. How can you say with certainty that Rex will fix the offense and Watkins will get more attempts/touches. Sure it's possible and he knows Watkins is a good player but who is going to be throwing him the ball? What about scheme? In fact Rex's ground and pound, "bully" philosphy which he said is definitely implementing is at odds with making a WR like Watkins a focal point of the offense. WR wasn't the main focal point in Romans scheme either. Rex is a great coach but he is no offensive guru. Talk to the people in NY/NJ. Edited February 13, 2015 by BuffaloBillsForever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I disagree with this. You cannot look at it in a vacuum. In my opinion, it is more than fair to look at the other players taken and speculate if our scouts should have been able to tell that the aggressive move up for Sammy was not necessary because similar talent was available without giving up so much. We could certainly use that extra #1 pick this year to find a OG, TE, RB or even QB. Yes, Sammy is probably going to be good, but OBJ and qa stud at another position of need would be better. Madd.....who would you have taken And how would that player have made this team better given what we know about those offensive coaches of course EVERYONE would like to keep their 1st round picks....I am not disputing that and yes 19th could have helped us find a player at all the positions you listed (Except for QB) what you are banking on is that Sammy Watkins was one of those "cant miss" players that people were talking about.....a true blue chip talent. We just dont know yet........we certainly dont know enough yet to be slamming Whaley for it. How can you say with certainty that Rex will fix the offense and Watkins will get more attempts/touches. Sure it's possible and he knows Watkins is a good player but who is going to be throwing him the ball? What about scheme? In fact Rex's ground and pound, "bully" philosphy which he said is definitely implementing is at odds with making a WR like Watkins a focal point of the offense. WR wasn't the main focal point in Romans scheme either. Rex is a great coach but he is no offensive guru. Talk to the people in NY/NJ. Go back and listen to Romans press conference Specifically in the area where he talks about "we could have led the league in rushing every year if we wanted to......I wanted to win games" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillsForever Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Madd.....who would you have taken And how would that player have made this team better given what we know about those offensive coaches of course EVERYONE would like to keep their 1st round picks....I am not disputing that and yes 19th could have helped us find a player at all the positions you listed (Except for QB) what you are banking on is that Sammy Watkins was one of those "cant miss" players that people were talking about.....a true blue chip talent. We just dont know yet........we certainly dont know enough yet to be slamming Whaley for it. Go back and listen to Romans press conference Specifically in the area where he talks about "we could have led the league in rushing every year if we wanted to......I wanted to win games" This doesn't tell me anything. You realize SF struggled with the passing game this year with reference to that quote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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