Josh McCown anybody? Update: Is a Brown...end of story.

[The Wiz]

How many fantastic catches did we see Sammy make. I expected that much and more in real games. I was disappointing because I expected great practice plays to happen in a real game

Those must have been the plays marrone took out of the playbook on game day that FJ was talking about.

[prissythecat]

 

Either you made this up or someone's feeding you false information. All the reports were that head coaching candidates were on board with developing EJ Manuel.

 

Manuel's contract is nothing right now. The Bills would be beyond idiotic to cut a young QB with size, athletic ability and raw talent who was coached by the worst coaching staff in the league. The only reason I would understand him getting cut is if he "big timed" or disrespected Rex or Roman in some way. Which it's absurd even thinking that he did something like that.

 

If they cut Manuel then I will be on the warpath. The gloves will be off. They will get absolutely roasted by me every day on this board.

 

 

Are you EJ's parent? One would have to think that if EJ is cut that the Bills made a final determination that he does not fit in with their plans. I want to see the Bills get better. If it means getting rid of certain feel good or likable players, then so be it.

[GG]

 

It would shock me to learn EJ wasn't "prepared" -- that goes against everything we've seen and heard from him and those around him.

 

If Whaley/Ryan/Roman don't think EJ can get past his limitations (or inexperience) to be an effective QB then fine. Personally, I think they'd be giving up too quickly and don't know why you wouldn't let him fight for a spot this summer, but that's just me...

 

But he was unprepared. Everyone was blown away at how bad he was in OTAs

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

Those must have been the plays marrone took out of the playbook on game day that FJ was talking about.

real or not that was funny if real funny sad

[eball]

 

But he was unprepared. Everyone was blown away at how bad he was in OTAs

 

I think you're exaggerating the reaction at OTAs...I seem to recall a lot of "good day, bad day" stuff. Unprepared is the wrong word -- I still say inexperienced. Everyone said the guy knows the playbook.

[GG]

 

I think you're exaggerating the reaction at OTAs...I seem to recall a lot of "good day, bad day" stuff. Unprepared is the wrong word -- I still say inexperienced. Everyone said the guy knows the playbook.

 

The initial reaction from the sessions attended by the press were shocks - his passes were off and he pulled it down to run in 7 on 7s. His on/off days were later in camp, but it was that initial impression after he spent the entire offseason with his gurus that raised a huge red flag, and set the rest of the season in motion.

 

If Leroi's rumor is true, looks like that was the death knell from which he never recovered.

[Beerball]

 

I think you're exaggerating the reaction at OTAs...I seem to recall a lot of "good day, bad day" stuff. Unprepared is the wrong word -- I still say inexperienced. Everyone said the guy knows the playbook.

over thinking...trying to be the perfect QB...trying to follow instructions from personal coach, new QB coach, OC, HC...JMO

[Rubes]

 

The initial reaction from the sessions attended by the press were shocks - his passes were off and he pulled it down to run in 7 on 7s. His on/off days were later in camp, but it was that initial impression after he spent the entire offseason with his gurus that raised a huge red flag, and set the rest of the season in motion.

 

If Leroi's rumor is true, looks like that was the death knell from which he never recovered.

 

Right, but wasn't that pretty much the story for all the QBs last year? There wasn't a single one that looked comfortable or prepared.

 

Doesn't that seem strange? I think most of us were shaking our heads that Thad could have regressed so badly after showing some promise the year before. Even Tuel looked awful, although many weren't that surprised by it. Orton came in and looked decent at times, but often lost and uncomfortable.

 

This is what makes me put more of the blame on the coaching staff than on the talent.

[jletha]

 

I think you're exaggerating the reaction at OTAs...I seem to recall a lot of "good day, bad day" stuff. Unprepared is the wrong word -- I still say inexperienced. Everyone said the guy knows the playbook.

unprepared wasnt the right word but from what I remember it was a lot more bad days than good days. The good days were always so exciting because we thought maybe he turned a corner or something clicked. I remember there was about 2-3 good days in a row once and we freaked out. In camp it should be almost all good days because there is very little defense. The bad plays, let alone a bad day, should be few and far between unless you are working on something totally different because youre already good enough at everything else. I remember Joe B and Rodak getting ruined because they were being objective in their evaluation (im not supporting either in their journalism here). yea the guy maybe made some good throws with his bad throws but if hes 50/50 in training camp thats a bad day.

Edited February 27, 2015 by jletha

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I'm not advocating a cut! I'm just saying that these guys are generally untradeable (save for gabbert). I'm presuming that just about all of theses teams tried to unload the patrick ramseys, vince youngs, and jo losmans of the league but couldn't find takers. The real option is to hold on to the guy or cut bait. The bills are somewhat unique in that they've undergone a massive regime change (new owner, hiring rex, etc.).

 

Let me restate my basic point - perceived qb busts almost never have any trade value despite what fans want to believe.

 

Dave, I have to admit, I'm shaking my head and feeling a bit frustrated here. I do the research and show that of every QB drafted in the 1st round going back to 2007, of all the QB who did not play out their rookie contract with the drafting team only Weedon (age 30, <55% completions, more INTs than TDs in 23 games) and Jamarcus Russell (<50% completions year before cut, more INTs than TDs in 31 games) had no apparent draft value.

 

Other 1st round drafted QB in that 8 year interval and parted during their rookie contract, including Gabbert, Tebow, and Quinn, all had trade value as specified. Even one of the guys you mention - Patrick Ramsey, whom you had to go back 12 years to find and who had 4 seasons before going on the block - was actually traded for a 6th round pick. So how can you justify the statement "these guys are generally untradeable save for Gabbert?" It's not supported.

 

I suppose you could make the argument that those 3 guys (Gabbert, Quinn, Tebow) were regarded by football professionals around the league as less "QB busts" than EJ but I don't think it would reflect reality. Anyone who watched Gabbert's embarrassing "deer in the headlights" performances got over the notion that he was a 1st-round talent PDQ. Similar with Quinn, and Tebow was regarded with suspicion as not having a playing style that would translate as a pro before the draft, a suspicion that was confirmed by his NFL performances.

 

As for Vince Young, when a guy throws his pads into the stands and has an on-field argument with his coach, I think it's fair to say that character concerns diminish his trade value (as with Freeman and JaBustus).

 

Bottom line, I don't think the argument that a young, 1st round pick who has shown some flashes on the NFL field has no trade value based on recent NFL history can actually be supported by recent history.

 

PS I'd like to add that I'm one of those who often points out where players don't have the trade value some fans perceive, so it's not that I'm one of these folks who think every player can be traded. But a young QB who doesn't even have a full season of film, who has thrown more TD than INT, and who has flirted with >65% completions and >7 AY/A in a third of his games? Yeah, recent history says he has trade value.

Edited February 27, 2015 by Hopeful

[valle7878]

why are the bills wasting there time on a low level qb GET ONE IN THE DRAFT

[GG]

 

Right, but wasn't that pretty much the story for all the QBs last year? There wasn't a single one that looked comfortable or prepared.

 

Doesn't that seem strange? I think most of us were shaking our heads that Thad could have regressed so badly after showing some promise the year before. Even Tuel looked awful, although many weren't that surprised by it. Orton came in and looked decent at times, but often lost and uncomfortable.

 

This is what makes me put more of the blame on the coaching staff than on the talent.

 

That's not my argument. I'm referring to EJ's awful start of the preseason, which very likely flavored the coaches' approach to the position. I'm also not absolving the regression of nearly every offensive player either. But, these are separate issues. EJ regressed when he walked into OTAs & training camp, well before he was influenced by Hackett.

 

As an aside, we should also be criticizing Whaley for completely ignoring the QB position last year, thinking the 4 bodies from 2013 were good enough to compete for an NFL. It's not surprising that Marrone wasn't thrilled with who he had to work with. I'm just hopeful that Whaley recognizes his mistakes early and makes the right moves to correct them.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

why are the bills wasting there time on a low level qb GET ONE IN THE DRAFT

 

Um, because the draft is generally regarded as weak on QB this year and our first pick is #50?

[Rubes]

As an aside, we should also be criticizing Whaley for completely ignoring the QB position last year, thinking the 4 bodies from 2013 were good enough to compete for an NFL. It's not surprising that Marrone wasn't thrilled with who he had to work with. I'm just hopeful that Whaley recognizes his mistakes early and makes the right moves to correct them.

 

Now that I agree with!

[GG]

 

Dave, I have to admit, I'm shaking my head and feeling a bit frustrated here. I do the research and show that of every QB drafted in the 1st round going back to 2007, of all the QB who did not play out their rookie contract with the drafting team only Weedon (age 30, <55% completions, more INTs than TDs in 23 games) and Jamarcus Russell (<50% completions year before cut, more INTs than TDs in 31 games) had no apparent draft value.

 

 

I don't know how you can say that because it's not a clear cut case with EJ, whose draft status benefited from a bad QB class. It was discussed at the time, and becoming more clear that in a different draft year, EJ is likely a 2nd or 3rd round pick. Other GMs don't care where he was drafted. They care about ability and potential. On that scale you should also compare his trade value to 2nd round QBs, and nearly all of those were cut without any trade value.

 

There are outliers who were drafted later on and were traded for picks, but the lack of playing time and playing on a strong, winning team helps their trade stock. Middling QBs from losing programs don't attract much value.

Edited February 27, 2015 by GG

[billykaykay]

Haven't felt this negative about the organization in years. Really effing sad. I absolutely hate the "plan" at qb.

Unlax Yolo. It is one poster saying this.

[metzelaars_lives]

real or not that was funny if real funny sad

Yo. Not to open up a whole nother can of worms but I just happened to see that in that other McCown thread that was closed you said that I have by my comments insinuated that I believe Josh McCown to be "awesome." Do you not understand that there exists a gap somewhere between "could probably beat out EJ Manuel for a starting job" and "awesome?" It is a gap that almost every QB in the NFL exists in. So for the record, of course I do not think McCown is awesome. In fact, I'd rather they take a flyer on a guy like Locker, Kellen Moore or Chase Daniel.

[billykaykay]

Leroi did?

Racetrack touts do the same thing and they know absolutely nada.

[dave mcbride]

 

Dave, I have to admit, I'm shaking my head and feeling a bit frustrated here. I do the research and show that of every QB drafted in the 1st round going back to 2007, of all the QB who did not play out their rookie contract with the drafting team only Weedon (age 30, <55% completions, more INTs than TDs in 23 games) and Jamarcus Russell (<50% completions year before cut, more INTs than TDs in 31 games) had no apparent draft value.

 

Other 1st round drafted QB in that 8 year interval and parted during their rookie contract, including Gabbert, Tebow, and Quinn, all had trade value as specified. Even one of the guys you mention - Patrick Ramsey, whom you had to go back 12 years to find and who had 4 seasons before going on the block - was actually traded for a 6th round pick. So how can you justify the statement "these guys are generally untradeable save for Gabbert?" It's not supported.

 

I suppose you could make the argument that those 3 guys (Gabbert, Quinn, Tebow) were regarded by football professionals around the league as less "QB busts" than EJ but I don't think it would reflect reality. Anyone who watched Gabbert's embarrassing "deer in the headlights" performances got over the notion that he was a 1st-round talent PDQ. Similar with Quinn, and Tebow was regarded with suspicion as not having a playing style that would translate as a pro before the draft, a suspicion that was confirmed by his NFL performances.

 

As for Vince Young, when a guy throws his pads into the stands and has an on-field argument with his coach, I think it's fair to say that character concerns diminish his trade value (as with Freeman and JaBustus).

 

Bottom line, I don't think the argument that a young, 1st round pick who has shown some flashes on the NFL field has no trade value based on recent NFL history can actually be supported by recent history.

 

PS I'd like to add that I'm one of those who often points out where players don't have the trade value some fans perceive, so it's not that I'm one of these folks who think every player can be traded. But a young QB who doesn't even have a full season of film, who has thrown more TD than INT, and who has flirted with >65% completions and >7 AY/A in a third of his games? Yeah, recent history says he has trade value.

I did not realize that Quinn was traded for late picks. Mea culpa on my part. I'm betting Denver wishes they had those picks back. Also, virtually the entire Jets org came out and said that trading for Tebow was a huge mistake. Anyway, I still think you're missing my point--it is exceedingly rare for first round busts (and like it or not, that's how Manuel is perceived) to command anything on the trade market. Secondly, why does 2007 matter? Bear in mind that teams trading for, say, Kyle Boller would not have been on the hook for the bonus, and if he was any good you'd gladly trade for a QB given the dearth of good ones. Trading for Losman prior to the the 2008 season wouldn't have put you on the hook for much vis-a-vis the salary cap. Yet you can bet that no team wanted to trade for him. Also, whether they're cut or not isn't really my concern. My focus is on perceived value. That brings me to my larger point, and a fact that virtually any competent franchise has to be aware of: Can you point to one first round bust or bust-like QB in the last 15 years who has had any real success for a team other than the one he was drafted by? I suspect Mark Sanchez for Philly is the best you'll do, and he actually did something for the Jets. And I'll bet you that Philly doesn't want him back. If you're a GM for an opposing team, why would you part with anything for a QB you don't think has it?

 

I don't know how you can say that because it's not a clear cut case with EJ, whose draft status benefited from a bad QB class. It was discussed at the time, and becoming more clear that in a different draft year, EJ is likely a 2nd or 3rd round pick. Other GMs don't care where he was drafted. They care about ability and potential. On that scale you should also compare his trade value to 2nd round QBs, and nearly all of those were cut without any trade value.

 

There are outliers who were drafted later on and were traded for picks, but the lack of playing time and playing on a strong, winning team helps their trade stock. Middling QBs from losing programs don't attract much value.

I agree. Mid round qbs who might show a flash and who play behind Tom Brady generate hope among opposing GMs. First round busts who have spent 2-3 years failing in the klieg lights don't.

Edited February 27, 2015 by dave mcbride

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

Yo. Not to open up a whole nother can of worms but I just happened to see that in that other McCown thread that was closed you said that I have by my comments insinuated that I believe Josh McCown to be "awesome." Do you not understand that there exists a gap somewhere between "could probably beat out EJ Manuel for a starting job" and "awesome?" It is a gap that almost every QB in the NFL exists in. So for the record, of course I do not think McCown is awesome. In fact, I'd rather they take a flyer on a guy like Locker, Kellen Moore or Chase Daniel.

you are mistaken I do not believe I used the word awesome.

 

I may have indicated that you feel every other QB out there is better than EJ.

 

So in closing I will say once more many many people feel EJ stands a chance of being good, and from casual observations that group outweighs the detractors at least by 3-1

have a nice weekend.