Josh McCown anybody? Update: Is a Brown...end of story.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Warner was definitely dealing with injuries with the Giants. Schaub looks to me to have seriously lost arm strength - which was never his strong suit - and it's compounded by a lack of confidence out there. If I were a betting man, I would not bet on the man.

 

Agree with you on the loss of arm strength, the unanswered question is "why"? People don't just up and lose arm strength THAT DRASTICALLY in their 30s. Heck I had a 62 yr old boss who was cut. Jacked. Torn muscle? Repetitive use injury? Nerve damage? What?

 

Warner, in retrospect, was still suffering injuries with the Giants and needed to incorporate wearing gloves and some changes to his delivery to return to form. But IIRC, the injuries etc were not known at the time.

[thebandit27]

I also want to point out that if indeed they cut EJ (and again, I have no reason to doubt that Leroi has heard this, and we know his info is sound), his cap hit balloons from $2.4M to $5.25M. I'm surprised that the team thinks so little of EJ that they're willing to take an additional $2.85M cap hit just to release him.

 

Doesn't mean it's not true; just means I'm surprised at how quickly they've soured on him.

 

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/e.j.-manuel/

[RevWarRifleman]

Wow, when there's over 800 posts on Josh McCown, you know its a very slow time in the year.

[dave mcbride]

Think they got a 6th for Gabbert.

Great point, but it is the case that gabbert was more highly touted coming into the league. He's bad, but some gms clearly believed in him the year he was drafted. Also, i believe that gabbert was closer to completion of his rookie contract than ej is now. As for who believed n ej, we know the bills did, but i'm not sure anyone else saw him as a first. Maybe the eagles and jets too?

Edited February 27, 2015 by dave mcbride

[RuntheDamnBall]

I also want to point out that if indeed they cut EJ (and again, I have no reason to doubt that Leroi has heard this, and we know his info is sound), his cap hit balloons from $2.4M to $5.25M. I'm surprised that the team thinks so little of EJ that they're willing to take an additional $2.85M cap hit just to release him.

 

Doesn't mean it's not true; just means I'm surprised at how quickly they've soured on him.

 

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/e.j.-manuel/

That figure, coupled with the fact that there is nothing better on the roster is precisely why I doubt this.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

I'm not advocating cutting him; I'm just saying that based on recent nfl history, the Bills probably couldn't get a 7th rounder for him if they tried. Unfortunately for EJ, the word around the league is that he appears to be a very weak qb, and no team wants to be saddled with a first round salary for a late-round quality player. Plus for better or worse, teams value draft picks like gold, even late rounders (just look at the Pats). Better to take your chances and try and snag him when he's cut.

 

Based on what recent NFL history? What 1st round QB who have played and won some games in the NFL and have no character or SA concerns have not been able to be traded recently?

 

As far as 1st round salary, the way trades like that typically work is that the receiving team takes whatever part of the salary they deem appropriate and the trading team pays whatever is guaranteed of the rest, or, the player renegotiates.

 

I think the chap from the Browns etc has it right, there are other QB-needy teams that would jump to trade a 6th or 7th for a late round draft choice and would sign him very quickly were he cut. They would see it as getting a 1st round pick at a bargain bin price.

[Cleveland Rocks?]

I'm not advocating cutting him; I'm just saying that based on recent nfl history, the Bills probably couldn't get a 7th rounder for him if they tried. Unfortunately for EJ, the word around the league is that he appears to be a very weak qb, and no team wants to be saddled with a first round salary for a late-round quality player. Plus for better or worse, teams value draft picks like gold, even late rounders (just look at the Pats). Better to take your chances and try and snag him when he's cut.

They could because he is a QB.

[Mickey]

 

OMG why Schaub?

 

I was a huge Schaub fan when he was successfully QB the Texans. I would point out that in many regards that are highly touted here (AY/A for example), he was a top-10 QB much of his time there and under-appreciated. I say this so you'll know I'm coming off a serious case of Schaub love.

 

Two years ago with the Texans, things fell apart for him. Don't know why. He went from being a very accurate seldom intercepted QB to being a pick-6 turnover machine. The Raiders took a gamble on him being fixable, and pretty firmly established he wasn't for them last year. Would he be a great QB choice if something fixable were wrong with him and it's fixed now so we can overlook the last two years sure. But as a lone or limited FA signing, it would be like putting all our options on "German Word for made of Glass Kolb" or on Bradford or Locker. Schaub is firmly labeled "Don't Count On It" at this point until proven otherwise.

The question is what happened to him? He had a near pro bowl year in 2012 (was invited as the third sting QB). He won his first two games in 2013 and threw in the neighborhood of 300 yards for 3 of his first 4 games (346, 298, 194, 355). The two losses were to Baltimore and Seattle, two very good defensive teams. The loss to Seattle was a 3 point loss in OT. He was terrible the next two games including a road loss to San Francisco and that was it, he was benched in favor of Case Keenum who lost the next 8 or 9 games before he got hurt. Schaub lost the starting job in Oakland to Carr. The Raiders decided in camp that Carr was playing well enough for consideration as a long time starter so they decided starting him was worth the time investment needed for his development. I don't think anyone really knows what happened to Schaub and whether or not it was a temporary thing like an injury. If there was any chance he could return, if only for a year or two, back to the level he performed at in 2013, he would be miles and miles better than any other QB out there. McCown is a "never-was" and "never-will-be." Schaub at least once was a good player, something he proved over many seasons.

[GG]

 

Based on what recent NFL history? What 1st round QB who have played and won some games in the NFL and have no character or SA concerns have not been able to be traded recently?

 

 

 

The entire Cleveland Browns QB draft history over the last decade?

[C.Biscuit97]

Great point, but it is the case that gabbert was more highly touted coming into the league. He's bad, but some gms clearly believed in him the year he was drafted. Also, i believe that gabbert was closer to completion of his rookie contract than ej is now. As for who believed n ej, we know the bills did, but i'm not sure anyone else saw him as a first. Maybe the eagles and jets too?

If Gabbert was more touted than EJ, it clearly shows that as much as people try to evaluate QBs, they know nothing. Gabbert had 16 tds, 9 ints in a spread offense his last year in college. It was joke that a guy like Mayock had high rated than Cam Newton. There's thoughts that Gabbert is scared to get hit. He's averaged less than 6 yards per attempt and has a 66.8 qb rating for his career. EJ's numbers have been better across the board.

 

I think you are a good poster but you are putting a lot of your personal feelings about EJ into your thoughts. He is not the train wreck you make him out to be. He certainly has flaws but to act like he is lucky to be in the NFL is wrong. Sanchez was in a much worse place and Chip Kelly maximized him. Some coaches are better than others.

 

If the Bills are dumb enought ocut EJ for 2 guys who might not even be better him, I might lose my mind (some probably think I have already). It's so dumb. The 1st round is a sunken cost. I hated Bortles coming out in the draft. I never understood why he was considered a top 5 pick and EJ was a reach when they basically where the same player made no sense to me. And Bortles was much worse than EJ was. But it would be idiotic to cut Bortles this early in his career for journeymen scrubs.

 

I am excited for the Rex Ryan era but the white elephant is handling of QBs. EJ would be the first young QB he has ever had than has throw more tds than Ints. Why would he want to give up on that before he got to work with his first proven NFL OC? This isn't about EJ as much as it is about the thought process.

 

I might be giving too much credit to Leroi but I am just hoping this is wrong. Because it's stupid. And if a team like the Eagles pick Manuel, it would look even worse. Every QB regressed under Marrone/ Hackett and EJ was the youngest one.

Edited February 27, 2015 by C.Biscuit97

[dave mcbride]

Based on what recent NFL history? What 1st round QB who have played and won some games in the NFL and have no character or SA concerns have not been able to be traded recently?

 

As far as 1st round salary, the way trades like that typically work is that the receiving team takes whatever part of the salary they deem appropriate and the trading team pays whatever is guaranteed of the rest, or, the player renegotiates.

 

I think the chap from the Browns etc has it right, there are other QB-needy teams that would jump to trade a 6th or 7th for a late round draft choice and would sign him very quickly were he cut. They would see it as getting a 1st round pick at a bargain bin price.

The history is long going back 10-15 years of 1st rd busts and bust-ish guys whose teams presumably tried to offload but couldn't: david carr, joey harrington, patrick ramsey, byron leftwich, rex grossman, kyle boller, jp losman, jason campbell, matt leinart, vince young, jamarcus russell, brady quinn, josh freeman, mark sanchez, tim tebow, jake locker, and christian ponder. Oftentimes they couldn't trade them because of injuries (ponder, sanchez), but this is the more typical reason: http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9784092/josh-freeman-sign-minnesota-vikings. "Buccaneers general manager Mark Dominik contacted all 31 other teams in an attempt to trade Freeman, sources told ESPN.com on Thursday, but were unable to find a taker."

 

Alex smith commanded picks because he was pretty good. I have no explanation for gabbert, who is terrible yet still commanded a pick. He's an exceptional case.

Edited February 27, 2015 by dave mcbride

[C.Biscuit97]

The question is what happened to him? He had a near pro bowl year in 2012 (was invited as the third sting QB). He won his first two games in 2013 and threw in the neighborhood of 300 yards for 3 of his first 4 games (346, 298, 194, 355). The two losses were to Baltimore and Seattle, two very good defensive teams. The loss to Seattle was a 3 point loss in OT. He was terrible the next two games including a road loss to San Francisco and that was it, he was benched in favor of Case Keenum who lost the next 8 or 9 games before he got hurt. Schaub lost the starting job in Oakland to Carr. The Raiders decided in camp that Carr was playing well enough for consideration as a long time starter so they decided starting him was worth the time investment needed for his development. I don't think anyone really knows what happened to Schaub and whether or not it was a temporary thing like an injury. If there was any chance he could return, if only for a year or two, back to the level he performed at in 2013, he would be miles and miles better than any other QB out there. McCown is a "never-was" and "never-will-be." Schaub at least once was a good player, something he proved over many seasons.

Schaub is a good system QB who is aging. His arm isn't as strong. He had a solid career but he is at best a backup.

[dave mcbride]

Schaub is a good system QB who is aging. His arm isn't as strong. He had a solid career but he is at best a backup.

Agree completely. He's just getting old.

[C.Biscuit97]

The history is long going back 10-15 years of 1st rd busts and bust-ish guys whose teams presumably tried to offload but couldn't: david carr, joey harrington, patrick ramsey, byron leftwich, rex grossman, kyle boller, jp losman, jason campbell, matt leinart, vince young, jamarcus russell, brady quinn, josh freeman, mark sanchez, tim tebow, jake locker, and christian ponder. Oftentimes they couldn't trade them because of injuries (ponder, sanchez), but this is the more typical reason: http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9784092/josh-freeman-sign-minnesota-vikings. "Buccaneers general manager Mark Dominik contacted all 31 other teams in an attempt to trade Freeman, sources told ESPN.com on Thursday, but were unable to find a taker."

 

Alex smith commanded picks because he was pretty good. I have no explanation for gabbert, who is terrible yet still commanded a pick. He's an exceptional case.

I'd argue that EJ's rookie year was better than all of them. And he might have had the worst coaching IMO.

[dave mcbride]

If Gabbert was more touted than EJ, it clearly shows that as much as people try to evaluate QBs, they know nothing. Gabbert had 16 tds, 9 ints in a spread offense his last year in college. It was joke that a guy like Mayock had high rated than Cam Newton. There's thoughts that Gabbert is scared to get hit. He's averaged less than 6 yards per attempt and has a 66.8 qb rating for his career. EJ's number have better across the board.

 

I think you are a good poster but you are putting a lot of your personal feelings about EJ into your thoughts. He is not the train wreck you make him out to be. He certainly has flaws but to act like he is lucky to be in the NFL is wrong. Sanchez was in a much worse place and Chip Kelly maximized him. Some coaches are better than others.

 

If the Bills are dumb enought ocut EJ for 2 guys who might not even be better him, I might lose my mind (some probably think I have already). It's so dumb. The 1st round is a sunken cost. I hated Bortles coming out in the draft. I never understood why he was considered a top 5 pick and EJ was a reach when they basically where the same player made no sense to me. And Bortles was much worse than EJ was. But it would be idiotic to cut Bortles this early in his career for journeymen scrubs.

 

I am excited for the Rex Ryan era but the white elephant is handling of QBs. EJ would be the first young QB he has ever had than has throw more tds than Ints. Why would he want to give up on that before he got to work with his first proven NFL OC? This isn't about EJ as much as it is about the thought process.

 

I might be giving too much credit to Leroi but I am just hoping this is wrong. Because it's stupid. And if a team like the Eagles pick Manuel, it would look even worse. Every QB regressed under Marrone/ Hackett and EJ was the youngest one.

 

I think you're misreading my posts. I don't think he's good, but I don't think he's a train wreck (I don't have the information to make that judgment). What I do believe is that the rest of the league thinks he's a train wreck, and I've never seen any evidence to suggest otherwise. The outside media coverage of him is 100 percent negative, and those reporters are getting their info from somewhere. We may not like Marrone, but I honestly think he commands a fair amount of respect from other coaches in the league. I have to think that he has nothing good to say about manuel as a player based on practice, preseason, etc.

 

At present, i'm talking about manuel's perceived VALUE around the league. I don't think I'm wrong, but i could be.

Edited February 27, 2015 by dave mcbride

[Chuck Wagon]

 

Based on what recent NFL history? What 1st round QB who have played and won some games in the NFL and have no character or SA concerns have not been able to be traded recently?

 

As far as 1st round salary, the way trades like that typically work is that the receiving team takes whatever part of the salary they deem appropriate and the trading team pays whatever is guaranteed of the rest, or, the player renegotiates.

 

I think the chap from the Browns etc has it right, there are other QB-needy teams that would jump to trade a 6th or 7th for a late round draft choice and would sign him very quickly were he cut. They would see it as getting a 1st round pick at a bargain bin price.

 

 

Most (or all) of the rest of the league never viewed EJ as a first round talent. We took him then because the FO had talked themselves into him and there was supposedly some "mystery" team that was going to take him late in the first.

 

A lot of people believed in Gabbert and saw him as being in a no win situation in Jacksonville.

[C.Biscuit97]

I think you're misreading my posts. I don't think he's good, but I don't think he's a train wreck (I don't have the information to make that judgment). What I do believe is that the rest of the league thinks he's a train wreck, and I've never seen any evidence to suggest otherwise. The outside media coverage of him is 100 percent negative, and those reporters are getting their info from somewhere. We may not like Marrone, but I honestly think he commands a fair amount of respect from other coaches in the league. I have to think that he has nothing good to say about manuel as a player based on practice, preseason, etc.

 

At present, i'm talking about manuel's perceived VALUE around the league. I don't think I'm wrong, but i could be.

Fair enough but Marrone turned a 9-7 job into offensive line coach on an invisible franchise. I don't think he gets as much respect as you think he does.

 

Great coaches are cocky. If I was Chip Kelly, I'd love to kick the tires on EJ, a big recruit of Oregen when he was there. He probably laughs at Nate Hackett.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

The history is long going back 10-15 years of 1st rd busts and bust-ish guys whose teams presumably tried to offload but couldn't: david carr, joey harrington, patrick ramsey, byron leftwich, rex grossman, kyle boller, jp losman, jason campbell, matt leinart, vince young, jamarcus russell, brady quinn, josh freeman, mark sanchez, tim tebow, jake locker, and christian ponder. Oftentimes they couldn't trade them because of injuries (ponder, sanchez), but this is the more typical reason: http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/9784092/josh-freeman-sign-minnesota-vikings. "Buccaneers general manager Mark Dominik contacted all 31 other teams in an attempt to trade Freeman, sources told ESPN.com on Thursday, but were unable to find a taker."

 

Alex smith commanded picks because he was pretty good. I have no explanation for gabbert, who is terrible yet still commanded a pick. He's an exceptional case.

 

Dave, with respect, you mentioned "recent NFL history", so why go back 10-15 years?

I just did the homework back to 2007 using Pro Football Reference.

I went back to 2007 to get to some real busts.

In that time, 21 QB were drafted in the 1st round.

 

The only QB without "character issues" cut without compensation whilst still under contract was Brandon Weedon. At 30 years of age, having completed 52.8% of passes in his 2nd year and thrown an equal number of TDs and INTs, he apparently had no trade value.

 

For character concerns, Jamarcus Russell was cut after 3 seasons, having shown up to training camp massively obese and with rumored substance abuse issues that resulted in arrests after the cut.

 

For the rest:

Gabbert traded for a 6th after 3 seasons

Tebow and a 7th traded for a 4th and 6th

Quinn traded for a player and a 6th after 3 years

Freeman released in his 5th season

Ponder played out contract and became FA

 

So I don't think that "recent NFL history" supports cutting a former 1st round pick without character concerns after 2 seasons and not being able to get compensation.

[C.Biscuit97]

 

 

Most (or all) of the rest of the league never viewed EJ as a first round talent. We took him then because the FO had talked themselves into him and there was supposedly some "mystery" team that was going to take him late in the first.

 

A lot of people believed in Gabbert and saw him as being in a no win situation in Jacksonville.

So the guy who threw 16 tds in a spread offense was a 1st round talent? Of course this is the same league that drafts Brady in the 6th, doesn't draft Romo or Warner, lets Rodgers fall to like 24th in the draft. This league is dumb.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

I also want to point out that if indeed they cut EJ (and again, I have no reason to doubt that Leroi has heard this, and we know his info is sound), his cap hit balloons from $2.4M to $5.25M. I'm surprised that the team thinks so little of EJ that they're willing to take an additional $2.85M cap hit just to release him.

 

Doesn't mean it's not true; just means I'm surprised at how quickly they've soured on him.

 

http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/buffalo-bills/e.j.-manuel/

what is the rookie cap$ ???