Nanker Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Putin's mission is to reconstitute the USSR/Russian Empire. No one will stop him from doing it either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 (edited) Putin's mission is to reconstitute the USSR/Russian Empire. No one will stop him from doing it either. Must be ours too since we gave him the opening by helping overthrow a democratically elected leader on his border, fomenting chaos in a country with a large ethnically Russian population Edited February 20, 2015 by JTSP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Must be ours too since we gave him the opening by helping overthrow a democratically elected leader on his border, fomenting chaos in a country with a large ethnically Russian population You're beyond an idiot. You're an uneducated !@#$. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Must be ours too since we gave him the opening by helping overthrow a democratically elected leader on his border, fomenting chaos in a country with a large ethnically Russian population Proof? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted February 20, 2015 Author Share Posted February 20, 2015 So, do your enlightened friends still see Putin in the right here? Friends is generous. Business associates is more apt. And yes, Putin is incredibly popular within the bubble and much of the blame is still aimed at the west, despite facts. Which is why mouthbreathing fools like the one below are still able to spout ignorance about the situation. Inept foreign policy blunders over the past two presidents have put American credibility at an all time low. Must be ours too since we gave him the opening by helping overthrow a democratically elected leader on his border, fomenting chaos in a country with a large ethnically Russian population Is there any subject you're actually educated about? Seriously, any subject at all? You don't know dick about football, you know less about the real world. You're a complete waste of grey matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Friends is generous. Business associates is more apt. And yes, Putin is incredibly popular within the bubble and much of the blame is still aimed at the west, despite facts. Which is why mouthbreathing fools like the one below are still able to spout ignorance about the situation. Inept foreign policy blunders over the past two presidents have put American credibility at an all time low. Is there any subject you're actually educated about? Seriously, any subject at all? You don't know dick about football, you know less about the real world. You're a complete waste of grey matter. I would disagree with the policy blunders of the two past presidents part. #43 was clear in trying to move central European countries to the West, and give an option to western former republics to join the civilized world. I fail to see how that was a policy blunder. After 2009, of course, all bets were off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted February 20, 2015 Author Share Posted February 20, 2015 I would disagree with the policy blunders of the two past presidents part. #43 was clear in trying to move central European countries to the West, and give an option to western former republics to join the civilized world. I fail to see how that was a policy blunder. After 2009, of course, all bets were off. The policy blunder was going into Iraq under false pretenses. Claiming it was for the greater good when it was really a geopolitical move (for any number of reasons you wish to assign to it) that was done dirty. And they got caught and were exposed to the rest of the world as being full of ****. That's the stain that sticks and allows Putin and company to cast doubt when the US says they didn't intervene or destabilize the Ukraine. It's false and completely untrue that the US did that, but because of the stain of Iraq our opposition has a much easier job pulling the wool over idiots like JTSP's eyes. 43 destroyed our reputation as a nation, whatever was left, and 44 doubled down on idiocy by making our foreign policy a complete disaster. We can quibble over who did America the worst on that stage, but both have done far more damage than good to our standing around the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 The policy blunder was going into Iraq under false pretenses. Claiming it was for the greater good when it was really a geopolitical move (for any number of reasons you wish to assign to it) that was done dirty. And they got caught and were exposed to the rest of the world as being full of ****. That's the stain that sticks and allows Putin and company to cast doubt when the US says they didn't intervene or destabilize the Ukraine. It's false and completely untrue that the US did that, but because of the stain of Iraq our opposition has a much easier job pulling the wool over idiots like JTSP's eyes. 43 destroyed our reputation as a nation, whatever was left, and 44 doubled down on idiocy by making our foreign policy a complete disaster. We can quibble over who did America the worst on that stage, but both have done far more damage than good to our standing around the world. Yet again you revert to the non sequitur of the Iraq invasion. The morons in Russia don't give a damn about that because given the history of the country, they're always thinking somebody is out to undermine them, If it wasn't for Iraq, Putin would have enough ammo to "prove" that western influence is undermining Mother Russia. There are even enough useful sixpack idiots in the West who fall for his lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted February 20, 2015 Author Share Posted February 20, 2015 Yet again you revert to the non sequitur of the Iraq invasion. The morons in Russia don't give a damn about that because given the history of the country, they're always thinking somebody is out to undermine them, If it wasn't for Iraq, Putin would have enough ammo to "prove" that western influence is undermining Mother Russia. There are even enough useful sixpack idiots in the West who fall for his lines. It's not a non sequitur as it was the root of our previous discussion. And you're right that in some ways it wouldn't matter even if Iraq had WMDs Putin's supporters would still be out in droves. However, there is an impact when a nation as big as the US falls flat on its face and its public pretext for invading a sovereign nation is exposed to be untrue. There's a very loud thud that resonates for decades and makes it easier for Putin and his chums to convince those who might otherwise doubt his claims. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 It's not a non sequitur as it was the root of our previous discussion. And you're right that in some ways it wouldn't matter even if Iraq had WMDs Putin's supporters would still be out in droves. However, there is an impact when a nation as big as the US falls flat on its face and its public pretext for invading a sovereign nation is exposed to be untrue. There's a very loud thud that resonates for decades and makes it easier for Putin and his chums to convince those who might otherwise doubt his claims. If you repeat a meme long enough, it will become its own truth. WMDs weren't the only justification for the Iraq invasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 (edited) If you repeat a meme long enough, it will become its own truth. WMDs weren't the only justification for the Iraq invasion. It was the only justification that the American people would have accepted as reason enough to send their sons and daughters to die on a "foreign shore". Edited February 20, 2015 by TakeYouToTasker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted February 20, 2015 Author Share Posted February 20, 2015 (edited) If you repeat a meme long enough, it will become its own truth. WMDs weren't the only justification for the Iraq invasion. It was what it was sold on to the world and the American people. We can talk (at length and we have over the years on here) about the other, righteous reasons, to create a battlefield there rather than here to combat terror -- but that's not how the invasion was broached to the American people. And the world, especially nations hostile to the US and the west in general, took note of the deception and continue to use it as a piece of propaganda to cast doubt over America's true intentions. It's a carrot 43 and company willingly gave to the opposition and we're continuing to pay the price for their complete snow job of the American public. Edited February 20, 2015 by GreggyT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 It was what it was sold on to the world and the American people. We can talk (at length and we have over the years on here) about the other, righteous reasons, to create a battlefield there rather than here to combat terror -- but that's not how the invasion was broached to the American people. And the world, especially nations hostile to the US and the west in general, took note of the deception and continue to use it as a piece of propaganda to cast doubt over America's true intentions. It's a carrot 43 and company willingly gave to the opposition and we're continuing to pay the price for their complete snow job of the American public. So while you agree that there were other valid reasons to remove Saddam and establish a strong presence in the region, you're still stuck on the catchprase. All those reasons were given, but the soundbite is the one that resonates, because it's also the Brain Williamses of the world who perpetuate the catchphrase, and boil down a major military action to a catchphrase. Because you know, they had to compete for attention with Survivor at 8PM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Proof? Victoria Nuland leaked telephone conversation on Ukraine: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 So while you agree that there were other valid reasons to remove Saddam and establish a strong presence in the region, you're still stuck on the catchprase. All those reasons were given, but the soundbite is the one that resonates, because it's also the Brain Williamses of the world who perpetuate the catchphrase, and boil down a major military action to a catchphrase. Because you know, they had to compete for attention with Survivor at 8PM. Again, those other reasons were not sufficient to convince the American people, who were the ones being asked to wage war, that they should put their sons and daughters in harms way. It doesn't matter if you, or any other number of Realists, think those reasons were valid; going to war requires the consent of the People. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Victoria Nuland leaked telephone conversation on Ukraine: Thanks for playing, retard. So your proof is a leaked conversation where the US is picking a side with a pro-Western coalition? After the protests started. And the recall was done in accordance with the Ukrainian constitution. So if you insist that Yanukovich was democratically elected, you have to accept that he was democratically deposed. Again, those other reasons were not sufficient to convince the American people, who were the ones being asked to wage war, that they should put their sons and daughters in harms way. It doesn't matter if you, or any other number of Realists, think those reasons were valid; going to war requires the consent of the People. Consent from the people was overwhelmingly given by their elected representatives and it wasn't just based on the premise of WMDs. It's easy to play MMQB, and squak No WMDs, Bush lied, people died from the Hill, but that's not the only thing that was presented to Congress. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Thanks for playing, retard. So your proof is a leaked conversation where the US is picking a side with a pro-Western coalition? After the protests started. And the recall was done in accordance with the Ukrainian constitution. So if you insist that Yanukovich was democratically elected, you have to accept that he was democratically deposed. . Is the US training and funding the Ukraine opposition? Nuland herself claimed in December that the US had spent $5 billion since the 1990s on "democratization" programs in Ukraine. On what would she like us to believe the money had been spent? http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2014/february/09/victoria-nulands-ukraine-gate-deceptions/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Is the US training and funding the Ukraine opposition? Nuland herself claimed in December that the US had spent $5 billion since the 1990s on "democratization" programs in Ukraine. On what would she like us to believe the money had been spent? http://www.ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2014/february/09/victoria-nulands-ukraine-gate-deceptions/ It was spent on supporting individuals and businesses who are western leaning. Where's the link that US overthrew the government? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chef Jim Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Where's the link that US overthrew the government? Are you sure you want that because I think it is from someplace deep, dark and smelly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
....lybob Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 here's one way to look at it http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/141769/john-j-mearsheimer/why-the-ukraine-crisis-is-the-wests-fault Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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