C.Biscuit97 Posted February 11, 2015 Posted February 11, 2015 I really don't care about the Martin incident anymore. Besides, Richie's past misbehavior includes far more than bullying Martin. Reading his rap sheet, so to speak, makes me regret that I celebrated RI's signing. But the other side is that Richie convinced the Pegulas that he's a changed man and maybe he is. Being so desperate for a talented guard (and PFF had him ranked #9 in the NFL after 8 games in 2013), we all want to believe that Richie has turned a corner in his life. Clearly, he's been an a**hole in the past. I'm ready to call that water under the bridge. I'm hoping as a Bill he's going to be a bully on the field and a model citizen off it. If he's not, I hope Rex, Whaley, or the Pegulas quickly make the right decision. It's a year. Any nonsense, he's gone. And that will send a message to the other players.
Ontario51 Posted February 11, 2015 Posted February 11, 2015 The more complaints from about Richie the better I like him.
Beerball Posted February 11, 2015 Posted February 11, 2015 http://www.sportsxchange.com/tsxfiles/?page_id=211&max_colums=20&story_id=99396
BackInDaDay Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 That column sort of reeks of someone that didn't read the text exchanges between the two guys. I started out with the same opinion of Incognito's involvement in the "bullying" case; after reading the exchange, Martin was at least just as culpable if not moreso. He gave just as much as he received, and it was clear that the two were indeed very close friends. They texted and hung out all the time. IMO, Incognito was made to be the scapegoat for Martin's own immaturity. Now, that doesn't mean that Incognito isn't an immature jerk; IMO he's absolutely displayed that type of behavior, repeatedly in fact. I just think that the so-called bullying of Jonathan Martin was a terribly misleading story as the mass media portrayed it. i don't base my opinion of him on this or that, i view him as the time bomb he is.. so far, his transgressions haven't gotten him jail time.. but he's not done. He's a narcissist sociopath who will charm some into entering his deranged world, until they fail to give him what he needs. make no mistake, Bandit.. Richie's victims will always be those who - for whatever reason - cannot manage or escape him. Martin's depression reached new lows after altering his behavior to try to 'manage' his relationship with his sadistically crude teammates - of whom, Incognito was the leader. he could have been stronger, but he wasn't.. his lack of self-esteem (or self of steam, depending on who you ask around here ) for a big man, is reminiscent of Chief from Cuckoos Nest. it will be interesting to see how long it takes Richie to manufacture consent here, as he did in Miami - and who he eventually traps in his orbit.
Doc Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 i don't base my opinion of him on this or that, i view him as the time bomb he is.. so far, his transgressions haven't gotten him jail time.. but he's not done. He's a narcissist sociopath who will charm some into entering his deranged world, until they fail to give him what he needs. make no mistake, Bandit.. Richie's victims will always be those who - for whatever reason - cannot manage or escape him. Martin's depression reached new lows after altering his behavior to try to 'manage' his relationship with his sadistically crude teammates - of whom, Incognito was the leader. he could have been stronger, but he wasn't.. his lack of self-esteem (or self of steam, depending on who you ask around here ) for a big man, is reminiscent of Chief from Cuckoos Nest. it will be interesting to see how long it takes Richie to manufacture consent here, as he did in Miami - and who he eventually traps in his orbit. Martin was the only teammate he's ever "bullied," and that was at the request of his coaches. He won't be bullying anyone in the NFL ever again.
BackInDaDay Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) Martin was the only teammate he's ever "bullied," and that was at the request of his coaches. He won't be bullying anyone in the NFL ever again. i don't believe that. Richie has spent his entire adult life disrupting lives. it appears to be beyond his control. Edited February 12, 2015 by BackInDaDay
GunnerBill Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) FWIW, I've read the report and the text messages, and I couldn't disagree more that Martin was "just as culpable if not more so" or "gave just as much as he received". In fact, I don't see how that's a reasonable interpretation at all. Did Martin participate in workplace banter, yes. Did he have a friendship with Incognito, yes. Did he make jokes about raping Incognito's mother and sister or display physical aggression towards Incognito, or call him "my B word" in front of other players, no. Did the preponderance of evidence (eg fine book) show that Incognito knew he was pushing Martin's limits and trying to "break" him, yes. In what way was Martin "just as culpable" or "gave as much as he received"? That simply isn't credible on the face of the evidence. Is it normal bonding banter to build a tight OL? Not when it involved remarks directed at an assistant trainer of Japanese descent. Using racist language and sexualized insults towards a junior Dolphins employee who is not part of the OL kind of blows that line of defense up. I thought the Wells report did a fair and balanced job of assessing the fact of the Incognito/Martin friendship and the possibility the Martin was abnormally sensitive and concluding that the preponderance of the evidence nonetheless indicated that Incognito was bullying Martin and knew it - the Fine Book assessing himself a fine for "Breaking JMart" on the day he left, the fact that other OLmen recognized that Martin was upset about remarks involving his sister and mother, the fact that both Martin and Incognito seemed to recognize a "bipolar" aspect to their association, part friends, part something else. I do think it's credible that Incognito thought he was Martin's friend and thought of him as his "little brother" and didn't intend to cause him lasting damage. But Incognito's behavior went beyond Martin, and that pattern of behavior applied to Martin too, and paints that aspect of their interaction in a different light. Where I don't find the Wells report credible is in assessing the extent to which the Dolphins coaches and front office were aware of the behavior and exercised or failed to exercise "due diligence" to maintain a workplace consistent with their own anti-harassment policy. In other places, Wells and his investigators are clear and explicit about how they evaluated conflicting testimony between players and decided which was more credible. Turner (OL coach) denied knowing about the harassment of Player A and they decided his denial was not credible based on evidence of different "Christmas Stockings" he gave. Yet they give him a free pass on whether he had a role in telling Incognito to "toughen Martin up" or the like and completely sweep under the rug any issue of whether he, as a coach, had a duty to act to inform OC and HC about the harassment of the assistant trainer (that's to me, the most troubling target). Other players have commented that when stuff is going on, the coaches know. Of course they know. Turner's only on the record action was to send a bunch of texts to Martin after he hospitalized himself exhorting him to be a man and clear Incognito publically, which even the Wells report notes as inappropriate. Ireland also gets a free pass about the question of whether or not he had conversations with Martin where he told him to punch Incognito. And Philbin gets a total pass. I don't find any of that credible. IMO, the Wells report is a whitewash in that regard, placing clear blame for "crossing a line" on Incognito and two other players, while exonerating or ignoring the responsibility the Dolphins FO and coaches had to monitor the locker room and maintain discipline/enforce their own anti-harassment policy and glossing over any role they may have had in tacitly accepting the behavior as "normal" or even encouraging the behavior as a means to a desirable end. JMO of course. I only just seen that Bandit asked me why I disagreed with his interpretation. I think Hopeful has pretty much summed up my feelings. I have expressed them elsewhere (not in this thread) at other times. The only thing I'd add is that for me the slightly different tenor between the text exchanges just between Incognito and Martin and those in group scenarios really strikes me. I think it demonstrates a real desire to humiliate and degrade. Whilst often in the 1-2-1 texts they strike you as buddies exchanging a bit of (at times distasteful) banter - in the group texts the motive of Incognito is much more obvious and sinister. Not once does that group text focus its attack elsewhere... it is constant on Martin. He attempts to fight back with a range of techniques, trying to out offend them, trying humour, trying to ride it out and none of those techniques detract from an avalanche of abuse coming his way. The intention is clearly and unequivocally in my mind to "break" him and when considered, as Hopeful sets out, in conjunction with the verbal evidence from the interviews and the content of the infamous fine book it becomes clear that Incognito knew what he was doing, even if he didn't quite realise the effect he was having until it was too late. Edited February 12, 2015 by GunnerBill
BackInDaDay Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 it becomes clear that Incognito knew what he was doing you may be giving Richie too much credit, here.. let's just say the man has a method for turning his own humiliation outward. that might stop when he reconciles what humiliates him - but who knows
Doc Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 i don't believe that. Richie has spent his entire adult life disrupting lives. it appears to be beyond his control. Time will tell.
Rob's House Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) This pop psych crap makes me want to vomit. If this wasn't viewed retrospectively through the lens of Jonathan Martin being broken down none of this would be looked at as such an egregious affront to humanity. If all of these same interactions were observed in real time as they were happening people might say Richie was acting like an !@#$ or being too hard on Martin, but no one (save for those with deep personal sensitivities to the subject, prone to extreme judgments, or limp in the wrist) would discuss the matter in these terms. Yes, Richie Incognito is an obnoxious, emotionally disturbed, super dominant male who probably doesn't understand societal boundaries and pushes normal male interactions to the extreme. That doesn't change the fact that the only reason we're talking about this is because Jonathan Martin is on the opposite extreme of the spectrum, faked it to fit in, and couldn't handle it. It's pretty obvious that no one in that locker room thought Richie was going to "break JMart" until after he had his meltdown. Those of you who feel the need to make this more than it is probably have unresolved issues of your own you need to deal with. Edited February 12, 2015 by Rob's House
BackInDaDay Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 This pop psych crap makes me want to vomit. If this wasn't viewed retrospectively through the lens of Jonathan Martin being broken down none of this would be looked at as such an egregious affront to humanity. If all of these same interactions were observed in real time as they were happening people might say Richie was acting like an !@#$ or being too hard on Martin, but no one (save for those with deep personal sensitivities to the subject, prone to extreme judgments, or limp in the wrist) would discuss the matter in these terms. Yes, Richie Incognito is an obnoxious, emotionally disturbed, super dominant male who probably doesn't understand societal boundaries and pushes normal male interactions to the extreme. That doesn't change the fact that the only reason we're talking about this is because Jonathan Martin is on the opposite extreme of the spectrum, faked it to fit in, and couldn't handle it. It's pretty obvious that no one in that locker room thought Richie was going to "break JMart" until after he had his meltdown. Those of you who feel the need to make this more than it is probably have unresolved issues of your own you need to deal with. sounds like an argument Richie might make.. dismissing his critics as over-sensitive, effeminate extremists, who don't know how a 'real man' behaves. all i can say is, had that been my daughter in Miami, this 'over-sensitive, effeminate extremist' would be in a Florida prison right now for bashing his fat face in with a 30" piece of sched 80. and since your post stinks of homophobia, let me ask the million dollar question.. other than hookers and victims, where's are the women in Richie's life? think about it, Einstein
Rob's House Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 sounds like an argument Richie might make.. dismissing his critics as over-sensitive, effeminate extremists, who don't know how a 'real man' behaves. all i can say is, had that been my daughter in Miami, this 'over-sensitive, effeminate extremist' would be in a Florida prison right now for bashing his fat face in with a 30" piece of sched 80. and since your post stinks of homophobia, let me ask the million dollar question.. other than hookers and victims, where's are the women in Richie's life? think about it, Einstein I don't know anything about Richie's sex life, nor do I care. I'm not sure why you do. And I can't see how your daughter (or homophobia for that matter) fits into any of this...at all...even a little bit. Is Jonathan Martin your daughter in this bizarre hypo you've concocted? If so that's extremely odd, and kind of creepy. Apparently something I said hit too close to home to evoke this reaction. Whatever your issues that I've tapped into are, they're your issues, and everything you've said has far more to do with you than it does with RI or JM.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 Martin was the only teammate he's ever "bullied," and that was at the request of his coaches. He won't be bullying anyone in the NFL ever again. Doc, all respect, that's not even the story from the Wells report on his time in Miami. Per that report, he bullied an assistant trainer and another OLman referred to as "player A", neither at the request of anybody. There was also a teammate in Nebraska that walked out. I hope he's benefited from seeking treatment at McLean and I hope our coaches will exercise some oversight of the locker room to keep things from getting out of hand. If those things happen, Incognito could very well be an asset to the Bills, but let's not whitewash Incognito's past.
Maury Ballstein Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 i don't base my opinion of him on this or that, i view him as the time bomb he is.. so far, his transgressions haven't gotten him jail time.. but he's not done. He's a narcissist sociopath who will charm some into entering his deranged world, until they fail to give him what he needs. make no mistake, Bandit.. Richie's victims will always be those who - for whatever reason - cannot manage or escape him. Martin's depression reached new lows after altering his behavior to try to 'manage' his relationship with his sadistically crude teammates - of whom, Incognito was the leader. he could have been stronger, but he wasn't.. his lack of self-esteem (or self of steam, depending on who you ask around here ) for a big man, is reminiscent of Chief from Cuckoos Nest. it will be interesting to see how long it takes Richie to manufacture consent here, as he did in Miami - and who he eventually traps in his orbit. Will you have your bomb shelter set up so you can run from the bully takeover ?
Hapless Bills Fan Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) This pop psych crap makes me want to vomit. If this wasn't viewed retrospectively through the lens of Jonathan Martin being broken down none of this would be looked at as such an egregious affront to humanity. If all of these same interactions were observed in real time as they were happening people might say Richie was acting like an !@#$ or being too hard on Martin, but no one (save for those with deep personal sensitivities to the subject, prone to extreme judgments, or limp in the wrist) would discuss the matter in these terms. Yes, Richie Incognito is an obnoxious, emotionally disturbed, super dominant male who probably doesn't understand societal boundaries and pushes normal male interactions to the extreme. That doesn't change the fact that the only reason we're talking about this is because Jonathan Martin is on the opposite extreme of the spectrum, faked it to fit in, and couldn't handle it. It's pretty obvious that no one in that locker room thought Richie was going to "break JMart" until after he had his meltdown. Those of you who feel the need to make this more than it is probably have unresolved issues of your own you need to deal with. Wow. Just....wow. I suppose Incognito was cut from two college programs and two pro football teams because everyone there was just had deep personal sensitivities prone to extreme judgements due to unresolved issues of their own they needed to deal with? Bad **** can remain hidden until something unintended (as I agree Martin's meltdown was) brings it to light, but once it's brought to light, it's bad **** no matter how it came to light. Let's not do a little "victim blaming" routine over it where anyone who calls it bad **** or disagrees with you is some kind of emo issue basket who doesn't understand "boys will be boys". Edited February 12, 2015 by Hopeful
Rob's House Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 Wow. Just....wow. I suppose Incognito was cut from two college programs and two pro football teams because everyone there was just had deep personal sensitivities prone to extreme judgements due to unresolved issues of their own they needed to deal with? Bad **** can remain hidden until something unintended (as I agree Martin's meltdown was) brings it to light, but once it's brought to light, it's bad **** no matter how it came to light. Let's not do a little "victem blaming" routine over it where anyone who calls it bad **** or disagrees with you is some kind of emo issue basket. I've been clear and consistent on this. I'm not arguing that RI is a good guy. I'm arguing that this particular incident has been blown way out of proportion. It appears to me, after the facts have come out, that anyone still harboring extreme condemnation of this man FOR THIS PARTICULAR ISSUE is not rational. Plenty of people have said things I disagree with (you being one of them) that I've not addressed because you're entitled to your opinions. But I think the level of condemnation coming from some is completely unwarranted, and the dime store psychologists who have to pick and parse everything to rationalize their pre-determined hatred are malignant and I feel compelled to point out the flaws in their emotionally charged yet intellectually vacant arguments. Plus, self-annointed pop-psychologists pushing their mindless conventional Oprahesque bull **** piss me off. And "blame the victim" refers to a situation where a girl who was forcibly raped is blamed for "asking for it." Misappropriating that to apply to Jonathan !@#$ing Martin is in a lot poorer taste than anything I've said on the matter. And BTW, no man should ever say "wow, just wow." Ever.
BackInDaDay Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 I don't know anything about Richie's sex life, nor do I care. I'm not sure why you do. And I can't see how your daughter (or homophobia for that matter) fits into any of this...at all...even a little bit. Is Jonathan Martin your daughter in this bizarre hypo you've concocted? If so that's extremely odd, and kind of creepy. Apparently something I said hit too close to home to evoke this reaction. Whatever your issues that I've tapped into are, they're your issues, and everything you've said has far more to do with you than it does with RI or JM. gimme. break.. what was that crack about only people with 'limp wrists' about - if not a reference to effeminate men? and how you believed only such men would find Martin's humiliation at the hands of Incognito offensive.. that was what you wrote, and as a heterosexual man who has stood up to guys like Richie, and defended guys like Martin whenever i had to - i find your opinion to be ignorant and offensive. as far as Richie's sex life is concerned, i could give two ***** what he's into.. but in the context of his behavior, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that much of his hostility towards women and gays is a manifestation of repressed sexual desires
Rob's House Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 gimme. break.. what was that crack about only people with 'limp wrists' about - if not a reference to effeminate men? and how you believed only such men would find Martin's humiliation at the hands of Incognito offensive.. that was what you wrote, and as a heterosexual man who has stood up to guys like Richie, and defended guys like Martin whenever i had to - i find your opinion to be ignorant and offensive. as far as Richie's sex life is concerned, i could give two ***** what he's into.. but in the context of his behavior, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that much of his hostility towards women and gays is a manifestation of repressed sexual desires Dude, I really don't want to fight with you. I dig a lot of your posts, but you're really over the top here and you're misrepresenting what I said. Limp wristed was one of 3 possible reasons I listed, the other two being prone to extreme judgments and something else I don't remember now. I used to stand up to bullies on behalf of those who couldn't too. I just don't see this situation that way. I understand if others are offended. I don't understand the extent to which some are. And unfairly condemning someone, even if that someone is an ads hole, compells me to defend them. Apparently standing up for those being treated unfairly is in my nature. Everything else I have to say is in my last post.
BackInDaDay Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 And BTW, no man should ever say "wow, just wow." Ever. certainly not somebody who's trying to come off like a tough guy.. but maybe he's not trying to impress anybody
truth on hold Posted February 12, 2015 Posted February 12, 2015 gimme. break.. what was that crack about only people with 'limp wrists' about - if not a reference to effeminate men? and how you believed only such men would find Martin's humiliation at the hands of Incognito offensive.. that was what you wrote, and as a heterosexual man who has stood up to guys like Richie, and defended guys like Martin whenever i had to - i find your opinion to be ignorant and offensive. as far as Richie's sex life is concerned, i could give two ***** what he's into.. but in the context of his behavior, it's not beyond the realm of possibility that much of his hostility towards women and gays is a manifestation of repressed sexual desires give it a rest, the guy's on the team. if it works out it's a major upgrade at a position of need at a bargain price, if not he has a short leash. he's had some issues for sure, but that also made him an easy scapegoat for martin's breakdown. team mates including QB tannehill came out in support of RI saying he was trying to be his buddy, and martin even exchanged the same kind of texts that RI was villified for.
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