BackInDaDay Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Dude, I really don't want to fight with you. I dig a lot of your posts, but you're really over the top here and you're misrepresenting what I said. Limp wristed was one of 3 possible reasons I listed, the other two being prone to extreme judgments and something else I don't remember now. I used to stand up to bullies on behalf of those who couldn't too. I just don't see this situation that way. I understand if others are offended. I don't understand the extent to which some are. And unfairly condemning someone, even if that someone is an ads hole, compells me to defend them. Apparently standing up for those being treated unfairly is in my nature. Everything else I have to say is in my last post. screw it.. i'm getting too nuts on this, too.. c'mon, i'll buy ya a beer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I'm arguing that this particular incident has been blown way out of proportion. It appears to me, after the facts have come out, that anyone still harboring extreme condemnation of this man FOR THIS PARTICULAR ISSUE is not rational. Plenty of people have said things I disagree with (you being one of them) that I've not addressed because you're entitled to your opinions. What an interesting take, because it is you who has already said you reject the Wells report. So I am not sure what other facts you are referring to. Needless to say your post prior to this one is an offensive rant. You would probably find my view on society "limp wristed" given the views that you have attempted to articulate above - maybe you think an Incognito type should be sent in to "toughen me up." The truth is I have played competitve sport to a very high level, I have been in locker rooms I know what goes for acceptable banter and I know what crosses a line. If I had heard a teammate talk about another teammates sister and mother in such terms I would have stepped in and made sure it stopped. This isn't revisionist based on Martin's reaction, that is how I'd have reacted at that point in time. But why take my word for it? As I've already said I suspect you and I see society in a very different way.... but what about taking the words of former NFL players? I remember watching NFL Gameday Morning when the bullying scandal took place and Warren Sapp (hardly known for being "limp wristed") said that there were only two areas off limits in his locker room in Tampa. Money was one and family was the other. Incognito (and others who have got away a little lightly in my opinion) crossed a line that does exist even in the macho culture of the National Football League and this wasn't one incident and one off colour remark. It was a campaign. See that however you like, we won't agree on this if we debate it for 100 years, but I haven't felt the need to personally attack your character in order to argue my point of view. I'd appreciate if you would refrain from attacking the character of those you disagree with. I am going to leave my thoughts on Incognito there. I do not do crusades. I will judge Richie Incognito's second coming on the Buffalo Bills based on his contribution on the field of play, I hope he makes our line better because if he does we are getting him at a bargain price and it gives us a chance to end these 15 years of pain, but he is a guy I can never root for personally and, I repeat, that makes me sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebandit27 Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 i don't base my opinion of him on this or that, i view him as the time bomb he is.. so far, his transgressions haven't gotten him jail time.. but he's not done. He's a narcissist sociopath who will charm some into entering his deranged world, until they fail to give him what he needs. make no mistake, Bandit.. Richie's victims will always be those who - for whatever reason - cannot manage or escape him. Martin's depression reached new lows after altering his behavior to try to 'manage' his relationship with his sadistically crude teammates - of whom, Incognito was the leader. he could have been stronger, but he wasn't.. his lack of self-esteem (or self of steam, depending on who you ask around here ) for a big man, is reminiscent of Chief from Cuckoos Nest. it will be interesting to see how long it takes Richie to manufacture consent here, as he did in Miami - and who he eventually traps in his orbit. I actually don't wholly disagree about incognito...I only meant to take issue with the linked article's portrayal of the Martin bullying story. We seem to agree that Richie needs to grow up and respect his peers...we shall see if he's capable of doing so... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) I've been clear and consistent on this. I'm not arguing that RI is a good guy. I'm arguing that this particular incident has been blown way out of proportion. It appears to me, after the facts have come out, that anyone still harboring extreme condemnation of this man FOR THIS PARTICULAR ISSUE is not rational. Plenty of people have said things I disagree with (you being one of them) that I've not addressed because you're entitled to your opinions. But I think the level of condemnation coming from some is completely unwarranted, and the dime store psychologists who have to pick and parse everything to rationalize their pre-determined hatred are malignant and I feel compelled to point out the flaws in their emotionally charged yet intellectually vacant arguments. Plus, self-annointed pop-psychologists pushing their mindless conventional Oprahesque bull **** piss me off. And "blame the victim" refers to a situation where a girl who was forcibly raped is blamed for "asking for it." Misappropriating that to apply to Jonathan !@#$ing Martin is in a lot poorer taste than anything I've said on the matter. And BTW, no man should ever say "wow, just wow." Ever. Fair enough, except that rather than pointing out flaws, you appeared to be just condemning them in turn, in a rather personal way. When you respond with "no one (save for those with deep personal sensitivities to the subject, prone to extreme judgments, or limp in the wrist) would discuss the matter in these terms" that really doesn't look like pointing out a flaw in someone elses argument. It looks like an assertion that those making the argument are flawed - the classic "ad hominem". FYI&E "Blame the victim" is a phrase commonly used today in contexts far beyond rape or sexual assault, including in cases of bullying or racial prejudice. It is a tactic commonly used by Incognito defenders who ignore (or don't bother to learn) all the evidence and say stuff like "Incognito was a scapegoat for Martin's immaturity" or "Richie Incognito is an obnoxious, emotionally disturbed, super dominant male who probably doesn't understand societal boundaries and pushes normal male interactions to the extreme. That doesn't change the fact that the only reason we're talking about this is because Jonathan Martin is on the opposite extreme of the spectrum, faked it to fit in, and couldn't handle it". JM "faked it to fit in" and "couldn't handle it" is classic victim-blaming talk. Moreover, the reason we're talking about this is once Martin's departure brought scrutiny, a whole nasty swamp of bullying an assistant trainer and another player, with the head trainer and OL coach complicit, emerged Insulting someone's Japanese ancestry, an assistant trainer who is not part of the OL bonding group or a friend, is just "pushing normal male interactions to the extreme"? Seriously? What exactly are you saying about your concept of normal manhood here? Look, there are valid points to be made about the way the situation was handled. With social media today, a faux pas that catches attention becomes a combination ideological crusade and social entertainment with life consequences for the faux stepper. If your point is that Ritchie was subjected to a rabid self-righteous social media feeding frenzy that cared not for context (NFL locker room, Martin and Incognito were friends who commonly talked to each other in an offensive way), I would agree. But those points don't take away the fact that once the spotlight was turned on, the nasty swamp went beyond that context. "And BTW, no man should ever say "wow, just wow." Ever." Do educate us oh great arbiter of Manly Behavior. Is "Just Wow" ok or does Lebron James need to turn his in too? And would it be OK as part of normal manly behavior if I assault a female volunteer with a golf club to the crotch and squirts from a water bottle to her face after I say it? Edited February 12, 2015 by Hopeful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 @MattBowen41: Incognito should get the benefit of the doubt from #Bills, but he will have to earn some trust in locker room. http://t.co/niHpkz68UA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Landing Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 @MattBowen41: Incognito should get the benefit of the doubt from #Bills, but he will have to earn some trust in locker room. http://t.co/niHpkz68UA I have to believe that having begun his second stint as a Bill by having to stand up in front of the press and say things like, "I'm not a racist jerk..." is going to put him on his best behavior. That being said (and, I'm being completely subjective, here), there is something about the ever-present smirk on his face-- even when he is being contrite-- that seems to spell out 'A-hole' across his forehead. But, he is a Bill, now. And so I will embrace him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 sounds like an argument Richie might make.. dismissing his critics as over-sensitive, effeminate extremists, who don't know how a 'real man' behaves. all i can say is, had that been my daughter in Miami, this 'over-sensitive, effeminate extremist' would be in a Florida prison right now for bashing his fat face in with a 30" piece of sched 80. and since your post stinks of homophobia, let me ask the million dollar question.. other than hookers and victims, where's are the women in Richie's life? think about it, Einstein Well I guess you showed who who can control their emotions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BackInDaDay Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Well I guess you showed who who can control their emotions. yeah- i deserve that.. there's something about this SOB's behavior that brings out the worst in me.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChan Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 yeah- i deserve that.. there's something about this SOB's behavior that brings out the worst in me.. It's because you're painting his actions as if they happened to your family member. Which is a big no-no for objectivity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BackInDaDay Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 It's because you're painting his actions as if they happened to your family member. Which is a big no-no for objectivity. family of man, bro.. family of man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 Guys...... I know its the offseason but lets face it Hes on the team Now we will see what kind of shape he comes into camp....to me that will say a lot about his committment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Bills Fan Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 I look at it this way.... is he worse than Richardson? No? Then he is an upgrade and I am happy to have him As long as he can play and be effective then I dont care CBF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Landing Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 It's because you're painting his actions as if they happened to your family member. Which is a big no-no for objectivity. To be fair-- or perhaps, accurate-- there are really two layers to being a fan. One, encompasses analysis, evaluation, prediction, etc, and strives for objectivity. The other, encompasses passion, pride, and all the other emotional aspects of fandom which are, most certainly, entirely subjective. We all get pleasure from both elements. But, obviously, some people will place more importance on one element than the other. I believe this is why the offseason acquisition of one guard has generated 44 pages of debate. On the purely objective, non-emotional side of the coin, the RI signing makes perfect sense, with character issues really only applying to their effect on the locker room (no small consideration). On the subjective side, in which, as a fan, I want to feel good about rooting for my team, and would ideally like the Bills to be populated with individuals that I can respect as people, this debate gets quite a bit messier. Personally, I tend towards the objective, analytic side of things, but I'm certainly not immune to the subjective nature of being a fan. Indeed, I think such subjectivity is important. I want to respect the Bills as individuals. It makes winning all the more enjoyable. As the father of a four-year-old boy, I would be heart-broken if we signed Adrien Peterson. But, my daughter is only eight. The grim reality of Incognito's behavior towards women hadn't really gained a footing in my perspective until BackInDaDay brought it up in such personal, subjective terms. And, it is absolutely relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 yeah- i deserve that.. there's something about this SOB's behavior that brings out the worst in me..It's cool dude. We all have our hot buttons. And he brings out the worst in a lot of people including himself. I'm interested to see what happens. He may not make the team. He may be our best interior lineman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted February 12, 2015 Share Posted February 12, 2015 (edited) give it a rest, the guy's on the team. if it works out it's a major upgrade at a position of need at a bargain price, if not he has a short leash. he's had some issues for sure I snipped it off at the part where we can wholeheartedly agree. Well, mostly agree - not quite sure $2.25M is a bargain. Incognito's had issues, wrong crap went down with the Dolphins and Incognito at the hub, he effectively got punished with a season-and-a-half suspension. Let's hope he's done his therapy land he's a better man and teammate now and we can all move on. X'ing fingers he's a badly needed upgrade to our OL though in truth, it's tough to come back from 18 mos off in any profession. Edited February 12, 2015 by Hopeful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ndirish1978 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 sounds like an argument Richie might make.. dismissing his critics as over-sensitive, effeminate extremists, who don't know how a 'real man' behaves. all i can say is, had that been my daughter in Miami, this 'over-sensitive, effeminate extremist' would be in a Florida prison right now for bashing his fat face in with a 30" piece of sched 80. and since your post stinks of homophobia, let me ask the million dollar question.. other than hookers and victims, where's are the women in Richie's life? think about it, Einstein I should point out that in your crusade against a man who has largely been vilified due to the written evidence of his threats, you have threatened him in writing with physical violence yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
l< j Posted February 14, 2015 Share Posted February 14, 2015 And he brings out the worst in a lot of people including himself. What an odd thing to say about a person: he brings out the worst in himself. Also, it seems to be true. kj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts