buffalobillsfootball Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 Patriots Place general manager eyes Foxborough expansion Let me just say - I am all for an new stadium in downtown Buffalo. I don't care if it has a roof or not. With that said, I would like to point out what they are doing here in Boston/Foxboro with Patriot Place. It is quite clear the Bills and Erie County missed an opportunity to develop a similar concept in Orchard Park but that ship has sailed... I would really like to see Kim and Terry build something architecturally stimulating in downtown Buffalo. I would love the downtown campus to incorporate retail, housing, offices and restaurants within the existing street grid. Yes, I understand some streets will be paved over with the new stadium; but we really need to develop a synergistic plan with HarborCenter, First Niagara Center, Canalside and the stadium. It feels so good to have owners who crave to do the right thing... I know Ralph did his best; but it is time to grab the bull by the horns and think BIG for a change. The people of Western New York and the fans of the Buffalo Bills deserve it... Go Bills. On a different note - have you seen some of the stadium designs coming out of LA's latest attempt coming from the St Louis Rams owner. Pretty cool - blends right into the neighborhood. Although it is low key I'd really like to see Buffalo take a more modern approach like this instead of the Colts/Lions stadiums. Personally, I still really like this proposed design for Buffalo. I don't know enough about the merits of the proposed location but I still love the design. Kind of takes a real modern approach for Frank L Wright... going in the right direction in my opinion:
PromoTheRobot Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 I think that is already the plan in downtown. A new stadium will probably have a hotel and convention space attached, plus a variety of retail and restaurants. The old Buffalo would build one thing and then sit around and expect people and investment to just show up. The Pegula way is to build and create the events that draw people. For example Harborplace had every weekend booked with tournaments and games before they were done building it.
BringBackFergy Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 "...LA's latest attempt coming from the St Louis Rams owner. Pretty cool - blends right into the neighborhood. Although it is low key I'd really like to see Buffalo take a more modern approach like this instead of the Colts/Lions stadiums." Sundecks, palm trees and a wading pool on the Buffalo shoreline?? Sign me up.
clearwater cadet Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 If you have ever been to patriot place it is pretty impressive. Initially I thought a complex like that should go to Niagara falls. With all the tourist in the summer you could have events 9 or 10 months out of the year, but downtown is only 25 drive? So it's still a good idea i think.
Rivermont Mike Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 This is the one thing about the Pats* organization that I like. Kraft built Gillette and Patriots Place the right way. Foxboro isn't exactly a booming metropolis, but Kraft created a destination and that site generates revenue (and tax revenue) 24/7. I consider it to be the gold standard for what the Pegulas need to do in downtown Buffalo.
yungmack Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 Once, a very long time ago, when Buffalo was the 8th largest city in the country, it was the place where all the best, most "modern" thinkers about urban space, seemed to be plying their trades. Louis Sullivan, the father of the skyscraper and a son of Chicago, had to come to Buffalo to build. He was followed by other greats, such as Frank Lloyd Wright in architecture, and Frederick Law Olmstead, who designed Delaware Park as part of the visionary lay-out of the city designed by Joseph Ellicott, an acolyte of Pierre L'Enfant, which essentially saw the city itself as a park, with neighborhoods connected by parkways and greenswards. What stands out about this past is that the men with the money to build offices, factories, houses and all the other structures of a city, and to commission those talented creators, seemed to always choose to go a step beyond the ordinary and utilitarian. They thought big and they thought -- no way around this -- artistically and modern. It seems to me that the Pegulas are kindred spirits to the Larkins and the other luminaries from that past. What they have already accomplished in a very short time is heartening, and is hopefully a harbinger of things to come. With that in mind, if a stadium is to be built in the city, I would like to see the design commission go to a visionary, someone who can rethink the current dull approach to stadiums and the areas where they dominate. I would at least like to see someone like Frank Gehry be part of the mix. Or perhaps someone completely out of left field. What I do not want to see is just another looming gargantuan structure that's dark for nearly all the year, its size and location chilling the area where it is eventually sited.
zonabb Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 A few points: 1. The architectural fetish in WNY always amazes me. Design is personal and one's perfect building is another's garbage. I don't care what it looks like, the design will have minimal impact on it's functionality and profitable. Actually, I would suggest the non-functional design elements are added costs above utility costs. Frank Gehry is garbage in my mind, he arrogantly puts himself above the community, designs buildings out of context, like many starchitects. Many of his buidligns are fraught with problems because the function poorly. You don't have build it ugly to impress... ask Sullivan, Wright, Yamasaki, etc, 2. Yes Buffalo was a once great city. Yes the biggest and best urban designers and architects worked here. But it's the 50th largest region now and economically depressed. There are few developers and businessman willing, no matter the community, to spend more to make the same profit. We're a selfish, narcissistic, (see Facebook, Twitter, 26.2 bumper stickers), conspicuous consumption society. Most businessman want to leave their mark on the Forbes richest list. That's their symbolic gesture to the community. Few wealthy billionaires want their buildings to be known by who designed it, not who owns it. They want their name on the facade. Maybe Pegula is not that guy but if public dollars are expended, the perception that is gets spent on design details rather than utility will be problematic in this shrinking region. 3. Convention centers are a bigger loser than a stadium. Buffalo will never compete for major conventions against San Diego, Orlando, Tampa, Vegas, Atlanta. It's a typical "hey everyone else is doing it, why be original, we'll just copy it" bad idea. The place would be empty from November to April. Don't do it, bad idea. Why compete for what are essentially a fixed number of annual conferences against these places.
PromoTheRobot Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 A few points: 1. The architectural fetish in WNY always amazes me. Design is personal and one's perfect building is another's garbage. I don't care what it looks like, the design will have minimal impact on it's functionality and profitable. Actually, I would suggest the non-functional design elements are added costs above utility costs. Frank Gehry is garbage in my mind, he arrogantly puts himself above the community, designs buildings out of context, like many starchitects. Many of his buidligns are fraught with problems because the function poorly. You don't have build it ugly to impress... ask Sullivan, Wright, Yamasaki, etc, 2. Yes Buffalo was a once great city. Yes the biggest and best urban designers and architects worked here. But it's the 50th largest region now and economically depressed. There are few developers and businessman willing, no matter the community, to spend more to make the same profit. We're a selfish, narcissistic, (see Facebook, Twitter, 26.2 bumper stickers), conspicuous consumption society. Most businessman want to leave their mark on the Forbes richest list. That's their symbolic gesture to the community. Few wealthy billionaires want their buildings to be known by who designed it, not who owns it. They want their name on the facade. Maybe Pegula is not that guy but if public dollars are expended, the perception that is gets spent on design details rather than utility will be problematic in this shrinking region. 3. Convention centers are a bigger loser than a stadium. Buffalo will never compete for major conventions against San Diego, Orlando, Tampa, Vegas, Atlanta. It's a typical "hey everyone else is doing it, why be original, we'll just copy it" bad idea. The place would be empty from November to April. Don't do it, bad idea. Why compete for what are essentially a fixed number of annual conferences against these places. I suggest you update your assumptions about Buffalo's population and the regional convention business. A lot has changed since you formed your opinion in 1987.
buffalobillsfootball Posted January 28, 2015 Author Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) Once, a very long time ago, when Buffalo was the 8th largest city in the country, it was the place where all the best, most "modern" thinkers about urban space, seemed to be plying their trades. Louis Sullivan, the father of the skyscraper and a son of Chicago, had to come to Buffalo to build. He was followed by other greats, such as Frank Lloyd Wright in architecture, and Frederick Law Olmstead, who designed Delaware Park as part of the visionary lay-out of the city designed by Joseph Ellicott, an acolyte of Pierre L'Enfant, which essentially saw the city itself as a park, with neighborhoods connected by parkways and greenswards. What stands out about this past is that the men with the money to build offices, factories, houses and all the other structures of a city, and to commission those talented creators, seemed to always choose to go a step beyond the ordinary and utilitarian. They thought big and they thought -- no way around this -- artistically and modern. It seems to me that the Pegulas are kindred spirits to the Larkins and the other luminaries from that past. What they have already accomplished in a very short time is heartening, and is hopefully a harbinger of things to come. With that in mind, if a stadium is to be built in the city, I would like to see the design commission go to a visionary, someone who can rethink the current dull approach to stadiums and the areas where they dominate. I would at least like to see someone like Frank Gehry be part of the mix. Or perhaps someone completely out of left field. What I do not want to see is just another looming gargantuan structure that's dark for nearly all the year, its size and location chilling the area where it is eventually sited. Impressive response. Although I cannot look a gift horse in the mouth - I wish the urban pioneers of today (Pegula's/Uniland/Ellicott) would be a bit more aggressive with their designs in Buffalo. With that said, I respect Gehry but I am more of a Calatrava fan... I just think Buffalo really needs to dig deep into their history of attracting the best architects and designers and build something truly cutting edge. I'm not saying people will come visit Buffalo because of our stadium; but ask the folks in Milwaukee what the Calatrava designed Art Museum or Boston's Zakim Bridge did for the psyche of the region - they all point to those designs with pride. Calatrava Boston's Zakim Bridge: Milwaukee Art Museum: Other Calatrava designs: Edited January 28, 2015 by buffalobillsfootball
Billzfan37 Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 Once, a very long time ago, when Buffalo was the 8th largest city in the country, it was the place where all the best, most "modern" thinkers about urban space, seemed to be plying their trades. Louis Sullivan, the father of the skyscraper and a son of Chicago, had to come to Buffalo to build. He was followed by other greats, such as Frank Lloyd Wright in architecture, and Frederick Law Olmstead, who designed Delaware Park as part of the visionary lay-out of the city designed by Joseph Ellicott, an acolyte of Pierre L'Enfant, which essentially saw the city itself as a park, with neighborhoods connected by parkways and greenswards. What stands out about this past is that the men with the money to build offices, factories, houses and all the other structures of a city, and to commission those talented creators, seemed to always choose to go a step beyond the ordinary and utilitarian. They thought big and they thought -- no way around this -- artistically and modern. It seems to me that the Pegulas are kindred spirits to the Larkins and the other luminaries from that past. What they have already accomplished in a very short time is heartening, and is hopefully a harbinger of things to come. With that in mind, if a stadium is to be built in the city, I would like to see the design commission go to a visionary, someone who can rethink the current dull approach to stadiums and the areas where they dominate. I would at least like to see someone like Frank Gehry be part of the mix. Or perhaps someone completely out of left field. What I do not want to see is just another looming gargantuan structure that's dark for nearly all the year, its size and location chilling the area where it is eventually sited. You're a pretty good writer, BTW
buffalobillsfootball Posted January 28, 2015 Author Posted January 28, 2015 A few points: 1. The architectural fetish in WNY always amazes me. Design is personal and one's perfect building is another's garbage. I don't care what it looks like, the design will have minimal impact on it's functionality and profitable. Actually, I would suggest the non-functional design elements are added costs above utility costs. Frank Gehry is garbage in my mind, he arrogantly puts himself above the community, designs buildings out of context, like many starchitects. Many of his buidligns are fraught with problems because the function poorly. You don't have build it ugly to impress... ask Sullivan, Wright, Yamasaki, etc, 2. Yes Buffalo was a once great city. Yes the biggest and best urban designers and architects worked here. But it's the 50th largest region now and economically depressed. There are few developers and businessman willing, no matter the community, to spend more to make the same profit. We're a selfish, narcissistic, (see Facebook, Twitter, 26.2 bumper stickers), conspicuous consumption society. Most businessman want to leave their mark on the Forbes richest list. That's their symbolic gesture to the community. Few wealthy billionaires want their buildings to be known by who designed it, not who owns it. They want their name on the facade. Maybe Pegula is not that guy but if public dollars are expended, the perception that is gets spent on design details rather than utility will be problematic in this shrinking region. 3. Convention centers are a bigger loser than a stadium. Buffalo will never compete for major conventions against San Diego, Orlando, Tampa, Vegas, Atlanta. It's a typical "hey everyone else is doing it, why be original, we'll just copy it" bad idea. The place would be empty from November to April. Don't do it, bad idea. Why compete for what are essentially a fixed number of annual conferences against these places. Most will not disagree with you on some of your arguments - but there is NO reason why form cannot follow function. I laugh at your comment regarding an "architectural fetish in WNY" - have you ever been outside Love Joy? People in most towns and city's care what buildings, bridges, parks and infrastructure look like... They not only want them to be functional; but designed with respect. If Buffalo, Erie County, and New York State are going to collaborate and invest in a stadium with the Pegulas and maybe the Jacobs - there is NO reason to not build something significant. We only get so many opportunities to spend tax and private money on something amazing; let's get it done right. And why not design a new landmark for WNY?
BILLS02138 Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 (edited) Patriots Place general manager eyes Foxborough expansion The Kraft family made the best of it given the stadium is 30+ miles south of Boston and 25 miles north of Providence - but the stadium and its location just contributes to sprawl. In additon, Patriot Place is a complete clusterfuk - it was poorly designed - basically outdoor malls and plaza with stores and restuarants you can find anywhere in Buffalo Niagara. Local Boston radion personalities here in New England often make fun of Ralph Wilson Stadium as they claim there is only one road in and out. I can't help but laugh considering Gillette literally sits on Route 1 - and there is only ONE direction in or out... I love the idea of the Pegula's building a stadium in Buffalo. I just hope they don't pick the same designers of HarborCenter. That place is an architectural $hitshow... Edited January 28, 2015 by BILLS02138
Mango Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 I understand economic growth, and its need in Buffalo, but please nothing like Patriot Place in Buffalo. The lot size is approximately a half a square mile, think, half of Kenmore. If you need something to go off of, it is about 3-4 times the lot size of the Galleria Mall. And people want to put that on the waterfront(ish). Something like this doesn't act synergy with the canalside area, it actually is the opposite. Paving a good portion of downtown for more or less a mall is a terrible idea. Skating, music, the riverwalk or whatever they are calling what is going in there, do not work hand in hand with small village sized shopping centers. There is a reason that this place is built 30 miles outside of Boston, and it isn't just available real estate.
buffalobillsfootball Posted January 28, 2015 Author Posted January 28, 2015 I understand economic growth, and its need in Buffalo, but please nothing like Patriot Place in Buffalo. The lot size is approximately a half a square mile, think, half of Kenmore. If you need something to go off of, it is about 3-4 times the lot size of the Galleria Mall. And people want to put that on the waterfront(ish). Something like this doesn't act synergy with the canalside area, it actually is the opposite. Paving a good portion of downtown for more or less a mall is a terrible idea. Skating, music, the riverwalk or whatever they are calling what is going in there, do not work hand in hand with small village sized shopping centers. There is a reason that this place is built 30 miles outside of Boston, and it isn't just available real estate. Number 1, Being a bit dramatic comparing the size of Gillette/Stadium Place and the Galleria. Number 2, you may have missed this part in my opening - "within the existing street grid."
Agent 91 Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 Once, a very long time ago, when Buffalo was the 8th largest city in the country, it was the place where all the best, most "modern" thinkers about urban space, seemed to be plying their trades. Louis Sullivan, the father of the skyscraper and a son of Chicago, had to come to Buffalo to build. He was followed by other greats, such as Frank Lloyd Wright in architecture, and Frederick Law Olmstead, who designed Delaware Park as part of the visionary lay-out of the city designed by Joseph Ellicott, an acolyte of Pierre L'Enfant, which essentially saw the city itself as a park, with neighborhoods connected by parkways and greenswards. What stands out about this past is that the men with the money to build offices, factories, houses and all the other structures of a city, and to commission those talented creators, seemed to always choose to go a step beyond the ordinary and utilitarian. They thought big and they thought -- no way around this -- artistically and modern. It seems to me that the Pegulas are kindred spirits to the Larkins and the other luminaries from that past. What they have already accomplished in a very short time is heartening, and is hopefully a harbinger of things to come. With that in mind, if a stadium is to be built in the city, I would like to see the design commission go to a visionary, someone who can rethink the current dull approach to stadiums and the areas where they dominate. I would at least like to see someone like Frank Gehry be part of the mix. Or perhaps someone completely out of left field. What I do not want to see is just another looming gargantuan structure that's dark for nearly all the year, its size and location chilling the area where it is eventually sited. Goosebumps... thank you for that
kasper13 Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 Main Street downtown has reopened to vehicle traffic for the first time since 1982. Pretty much from Lafayette Square down to the Harbor Center is wide open for redevelopment including the nearly vacant Main Place Mall and the nearly vacant One Seneca Tower (used to be HSBC Building), the only tenant in that 40 story building is......Pegula Sports & Entertainment. If the stadium goes downtown, you will see all the new bars, restaurants, hotels, Bills offices all on Main Street.
Mango Posted January 28, 2015 Posted January 28, 2015 Number 1, Being a bit dramatic comparing the size of Gillette/Stadium Place and the Galleria. Number 2, you may have missed this part in my opening - "within the existing street grid." I am not being dramatic, that is the measurements of the entirety of Patriot Place in comparison to the Galleria Mall. Sure Gillette has the same footprint (within reason) of every other NFL stadium, I am talking about the entirety of the complex, and implementing something very similar in Buffalo, so total area should be taken into account. If you can get it to work within a street grid great, but how many blocks of downtown land/street scape will be dedicated to parking lots? Main Street downtown has reopened to vehicle traffic for the first time since 1982. Pretty much from Lafayette Square down to the Harbor Center is wide open for redevelopment including the nearly vacant Main Place Mall and the nearly vacant One Seneca Tower (used to be HSBC Building), the only tenant in that 40 story building is......Pegula Sports & Entertainment. If the stadium goes downtown, you will see all the new bars, restaurants, hotels, Bills offices all on Main Street. Tear down the main place mall, it is a disaster/eye sore. Fun fact that used to be a "park" in the middle of the city. It was green space for public use/gatherings It would be cool, and work well with canalside if that were turned into some sort of walking plaza.
Dirtbag Posted January 29, 2015 Posted January 29, 2015 Once, a very long time ago, when Buffalo was the 8th largest city in the country, it was the place where all the best, most "modern" thinkers about urban space, seemed to be plying their trades. Louis Sullivan, the father of the skyscraper and a son of Chicago, had to come to Buffalo to build. He was followed by other greats, such as Frank Lloyd Wright in architecture, and Frederick Law Olmstead, who designed Delaware Park as part of the visionary lay-out of the city designed by Joseph Ellicott, an acolyte of Pierre L'Enfant, which essentially saw the city itself as a park, with neighborhoods connected by parkways and greenswards. What stands out about this past is that the men with the money to build offices, factories, houses and all the other structures of a city, and to commission those talented creators, seemed to always choose to go a step beyond the ordinary and utilitarian. They thought big and they thought -- no way around this -- artistically and modern. It seems to me that the Pegulas are kindred spirits to the Larkins and the other luminaries from that past. What they have already accomplished in a very short time is heartening, and is hopefully a harbinger of things to come. With that in mind, if a stadium is to be built in the city, I would like to see the design commission go to a visionary, someone who can rethink the current dull approach to stadiums and the areas where they dominate. I would at least like to see someone like Frank Gehry be part of the mix. Or perhaps someone completely out of left field. What I do not want to see is just another looming gargantuan structure that's dark for nearly all the year, its size and location chilling the area where it is eventually sited. yes.
Hammered a Lot Posted January 29, 2015 Posted January 29, 2015 (edited) A few points: 1. The architectural fetish in WNY always amazes me. Design is personal and one's perfect building is another's garbage. I don't care what it looks like, the design will have minimal impact on it's functionality and profitable. Actually, I would suggest the non-functional design elements are added costs above utility costs. Frank Gehry is garbage in my mind, he arrogantly puts himself above the community, designs buildings out of context, like many starchitects. Many of his buidligns are fraught with problems because the function poorly. You don't have build it ugly to impress... ask Sullivan, Wright, Yamasaki, etc, 2. Yes Buffalo was a once great city. Yes the biggest and best urban designers and architects worked here. But it's the 50th largest region now and economically depressed. There are few developers and businessman willing, no matter the community, to spend more to make the same profit. We're a selfish, narcissistic, (see Facebook, Twitter, 26.2 bumper stickers), conspicuous consumption society. Most businessman want to leave their mark on the Forbes richest list. That's their symbolic gesture to the community. Few wealthy billionaires want their buildings to be known by who designed it, not who owns it. They want their name on the facade. Maybe Pegula is not that guy but if public dollars are expended, the perception that is gets spent on design details rather than utility will be problematic in this shrinking region. 3. Convention centers are a bigger loser than a stadium. Buffalo will never compete for major conventions against San Diego, Orlando, Tampa, Vegas, Atlanta. It's a typical "hey everyone else is doing it, why be original, we'll just copy it" bad idea. The place would be empty from November to April. Don't do it, bad idea. Why compete for what are essentially a fixed number of annual conferences against these places. All very good points. Buffalo 4th poorest city in the US and people think what can fly in LA San Fran, New England will work in Buffalo. A good site to read and follow is Field of Schemes all about stadium$$$$ and the PR machines. I was actually shocked to read in today's Buffalo News ( up to this point ever thing has been rainbows and puppy dog tails good) a negative story about a downtown stadium site . Of course that site is stepping on some powerful toes. Edited January 29, 2015 by Hammered a Lot
buffalobillsfootball Posted January 29, 2015 Author Posted January 29, 2015 (edited) All very good points. Buffalo 4th poorest city in the US and people think what can fly in LA San Fran, New England will work in Buffalo. A good site to read and follow is Field of Schemes all about stadium$$$$ and the PR machines. I was actually shocked to read in today's Buffalo News ( up to this point ever thing has been rainbows and puppy dog tails good) a negative story about a downtown stadium site . Of course that site is stepping on some powerful toes. Not biased or anything, HammersLOT? Bottom line - the Pegula's will build a new stadium. Whether a new stadium is build in Orchard Park or Buffalo, there will be a private and public finacning colloboration to fund this project. It makes ZERO economic sense to spend any additional money in Orchard Park. Pegula is investing millions in downtown Buffalo - no way he will invest money in OP when and miss out on the synergies he is currently creating in downtown Pegulaville. Will things change? Yes. Will taligating be different? Yes. Can the City of Buffalo's infrastructure support the stadium and traffic? Of course, the city and supporting highways was built at a time when it had DOUBLE the population. Building a new stadium in Orchard Park reinfoces all the bad decisions that made Buffalo the 4th poorest city in the US. Edited January 29, 2015 by buffalobillsfootball
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