Mr. WEO Posted February 19, 2015 Posted February 19, 2015 They haven't even been questioned by investigators, so I'm not sure how they could...unless we're counting Belichick's "pseudoscience" explanation as an outright lie (in all fairness, it could be that he just had no clue how ignorant he sounded). More likely he was just cynically showing his disdain for the public over this--he surely knew he was delivering gibberish. He was essentially impersonating Marshawn Lynch--"I'm only talking about this because I was told to". What he was really saying with his science lecture was "hey, blow me alright?".
thebandit27 Posted February 20, 2015 Posted February 20, 2015 More likely he was just cynically showing his disdain for the public over this--he surely knew he was delivering gibberish. He was essentially impersonating Marshawn Lynch--"I'm only talking about this because I was told to". What he was really saying with his science lecture was "hey, blow me alright?". Yes I fully agree that's the case...I only meant to leave room for the possibility that he was actually pompous enough to believe that he could fool everyone into thinking he knew what he was talking about. He's smug enough to do it.
Pneumonic Posted February 20, 2015 Posted February 20, 2015 (edited) BB knew full well that his audience is made-up of 80% of a populace of people who don't have >grade 8 math/science knowledge so why would he bother explaining to them the idea gas formula with emphasis on delta P/T, kelvins, PSIa/g, kPaa, relative humdity, absolute/barometric pressure, dewpoint/condensation, etc? He might well have spoken chinese to them instead. All he wanted to do was explain to the dunces out there that the possibility exists that climatic conditions alone could have caused the pressure drop in the footballs being talked about. Edited February 20, 2015 by Pneumonic
papazoid Posted February 20, 2015 Posted February 20, 2015 Grigson’s admission puts Kensil under more scrutiny NFL executive V.P. of football operations Troy Vincent has said that (Indy GM) Ryan Grigson contacted V.P. of game operations Mike Kensil during the AFC championship, after a football that had been intercepted by linebacker D’Qwell Jackson allegedly seemed to be underinflated. That makes Kensil, a former Jets employee with a reputation for having an anti-Patriots bias, a prime candidate to have gotten the phone call from Grigson before the game. What if Kensil decided he was going to handle it on his own, that he was going to catch the Patriots in the act? http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/02/20/grigsons-admission-puts-kensil-under-more-scrutiny/
Doc Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 BB knew full well that his audience is made-up of 80% of a populace of people who don't have >grade 8 math/science knowledge so why would he bother explaining to them the idea gas formula with emphasis on delta P/T, kelvins, PSIa/g, kPaa, relative humdity, absolute/barometric pressure, dewpoint/condensation, etc? He might well have spoken chinese to them instead. All he wanted to do was explain to the dunces out there that the possibility exists that climatic conditions alone could have caused the pressure drop in the footballs being talked about. And again, the dunces (and we know who they are) may have bought it.
MattM Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 Grigson’s admission puts Kensil under more scrutiny NFL executive V.P. of football operations Troy Vincent has said that (Indy GM) Ryan Grigson contacted V.P. of game operations Mike Kensil during the AFC championship, after a football that had been intercepted by linebacker D’Qwell Jackson allegedly seemed to be underinflated. That makes Kensil, a former Jets employee with a reputation for having an anti-Patriots bias, a prime candidate to have gotten the phone call from Grigson before the game. What if Kensil decided he was going to handle it on his own, that he was going to catch the Patriots in the act? http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/02/20/grigsons-admission-puts-kensil-under-more-scrutiny/ Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that Florio seems to have turned into a Pats*/Kraft mouthpiece the last few weeks? Every time something damaging about the Pats* comes out in the regular press, suddenly Florio has some other leaked pro-Pats* spin tidbit. He also is keen on trying to infuse all of this with the high level of proof that comes from a criminal case, which is totally ridiculous considering what we're talking about. Personally, if League officials measured both sets of balls pre-game and then again at halftime and found one set had lost 2 pounds or so of pressure as a general matter, while the others didn't, that's really all we need to know to be convinced there was tampering. All this sideshow about a post game chain of custody and the guy later selling the balls is just garbage. I also noticed a commenter there in the latest cycle of garbage articles yesterday claiming to be a long time "associate" of the Jets who claimed inside knowledge of the NFL's investigation saying that Pats* fans/defenders wouldn't like the direction the investigation is now going in and that there were a number of currently non-public things that will come out in the report that those folks won't like. Who knows if the guy is for real, but it was an interesting comment. Might also explain all the pre-release obfuscation and spin.
Pneumonic Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 And again, the dunces (and we know who they are) may have bought it. But, there are still a great number who still don't get it and who wear their dunce hat well. Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed that Florio seems to have turned into a Pats*/Kraft mouthpiece the last few weeks? Every time something damaging about the Pats* comes out in the regular press, suddenly Florio has some other leaked pro-Pats* spin tidbit. He also is keen on trying to infuse all of this with the high level of proof that comes from a criminal case, which is totally ridiculous considering what we're talking about. Personally, if League officials measured both sets of balls pre-game and then again at halftime and found one set had lost 2 pounds or so of pressure as a general matter, while the others didn't, that's really all we need to know to be convinced there was tampering. All this sideshow about a post game chain of custody and the guy later selling the balls is just garbage. I also noticed a commenter there in the latest cycle of garbage articles yesterday claiming to be a long time "associate" of the Jets who claimed inside knowledge of the NFL's investigation saying that Pats* fans/defenders wouldn't like the direction the investigation is now going in and that there were a number of currently non-public things that will come out in the report that those folks won't like. Who knows if the guy is for real, but it was an interesting comment. Might also explain all the pre-release obfuscation and spin. My guess is Florio will say just about anything (on either side of this issue) if doing so increases traffic flow to his site.
MattM Posted February 21, 2015 Posted February 21, 2015 But, there are still a great number who still don't get it and who wear their dunce hat well. My guess is Florio will say just about anything (on either side of this issue) if doing so increases traffic flow to his site. Oh, for sure on that, but the spin lately from him is all one way, rather than a hit maximizing two ways. He was all over the Pats* on this initially, but 2-3 weeks ago took a hard turn in the other directions in a very noticeable way
papazoid Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 Fourth-Grader’s Science Project Debunks DeflateGate, Clears Patriots (Video)Read more at: http://nesn.com/2015/02/fourth-graders-science-project-debunks-deflategate-clears-patriots/
MattM Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 Fourth-Graders Science Project Debunks DeflateGate, Clears Patriots (Video) Read more at: http://nesn.com/2015/02/fourth-graders-science-project-debunks-deflategate-clears-patriots/ Sorry, but I'd rather take the word of two NY college professors (one from Columbia and the other who has a Harvard degree) who said in the NYT that it was likely done via tampering with the balls over some NE* fanboy experiment
Green Lightning Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 Meanwhile, Goodell and Kraft structure their BS excuse and prepare to obfuscate and deny.
MattM Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 Meanwhile, Goodell and Kraft structure their BS excuse and prepare to obfuscate and deny. That's exactly what all the Florio garbage about the standard of proof here is--an attempt to obfuscate what I suspect will be the fact that their balls were markedly and measurably lower at halftime than when they were initially tested pregame. Hopefully they tested the Colts balls both times as well. If so, and they turn out to not have lowered their psi anywhere near the Pats* level, that's really all you need to know here to prove tampering. None of this "beyond a reasonable doubt" crap that Florio and the Pats* have been peddling the last few weeks in an effort to obfuscate and argue that they did nothing wrong since there isn't "proof beyond a reasonable doubt." This ain't a criminal trial and no one's going to jail as a result, so no need for such a (these days) nearly impossible standard of proof....
JohnC Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 (edited) That's exactly what all the Florio garbage about the standard of proof here is--an attempt to obfuscate what I suspect will be the fact that their balls were markedly and measurably lower at halftime than when they were initially tested pregame. Hopefully they tested the Colts balls both times as well. If so, and they turn out to not have lowered their psi anywhere near the Pats* level, that's really all you need to know here to prove tampering. None of this "beyond a reasonable doubt" crap that Florio and the Pats* have been peddling the last few weeks in an effort to obfuscate and argue that they did nothing wrong since there isn't "proof beyond a reasonable doubt." This ain't a criminal trial and no one's going to jail as a result, so no need for such a (these days) nearly impossible standard of proof.... What standard of proof do you want? Guessing in order to support your biases. It's bad enough making excuses why the Bills lose so often but now it has gotten to the pathetic point where the jealous home town crowd has restorted to making excuses while others win. Losing with dignity can be respected but losing without grace is ugly and classless. Edited February 22, 2015 by JohnC
MattM Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 That's exactly what all the Florio garbage about the standard of proof here is--an attempt to obfuscate what I suspect will be the fact that their balls were markedly and measurably lower at halftime than when they were initially tested pregame. Hopefully they tested the Colts balls both times as well. If so, and they turn out to not have lowered their psi anywhere near the Pats* level, that's really all you need to know here to prove tampering. None of this "beyond a reasonable doubt" crap that Florio and the Pats* have been peddling the last few weeks in an effort to obfuscate and argue that they did nothing wrong since there isn't "proof beyond a reasonable doubt." This ain't a criminal trial and no one's going to jail as a result, so no need for such a (these days) nearly impossible standard of proof.... What standard of proof do you want? Guessing in order to support your biases. It's bad enough making excuses why the Bills lose so often but now it has gotten to the pathetic point where the jealous home town crowd has restorted to making excuses while others win. Losing with dignity can be respected but losing without grace is ugly and classless. I laid out my standard of proof above--if the League's officials measured all balls pre-game and found them compliant and then measured them again at halftime and found the Pats*' balls to be non-compliant and the Colts' balks to be compliant that's really all you need to know to implicate tampering and mete out punishment. All of the recent garbage about "beyond a reasonable doubt" that Florio and other Pats' mouthpieces are putting out there to muddy the waters is just that--garbage designed to obfuscate the real issue. What they're doing is something criminal defense lawyers have gotten quite good at recently--setting the proof bar so high that no one is ever guilty of anything. The obvious difference here is that this is not a criminal trial and such severe proof standards should not apply, despite Mr. Florio's recent attempts to spin it otherwise. Seems pretty obvious to me, but just like Belicheat tried to do with his laughable press conference, they're trying to create in advance a defense where there should not be one. Your continued dismissal of any criticism of the Pats* has gotten quite old, BTW. As we've seen in many areas of sports (Lance Armstrong, the steroid era in baseball, Spygate, etc.) and society (Wall Street and politics come to mind), cheaters do quite often prosper, but that's all the more reason to hold folks fully accountable when caught. Otherwise, the message being sent is it's ok to cheat as long as you win, which personally is not the message that I think society should be sending. Think the Pats* are some poor, unjustly accused franchise? Go read O'Leary's book on Spygate or if you don't have the time, the NYT article from May, 2008 in which several members of the NFL competition committee state that it was really just one team brought before them for suspicion of cheating, over and over again. Any guess as to which team that was? We don't know what will actually be found by the committee (assuming it's not just a big cover up like Spygate turned out to be when Goodell destroyed the tapes and then lied about how extensive the practice was, as was later shown by the tapes Matt Walsh produced), but if the evidence is as I laid it out above the Pats* should be punished. Period. Full stop. All of this has nothing to do with the Bills losing, other than perhaps cheating in our games, but you always seem to conflate the two. One can fault the Bills for fielding bad teams while still pointing out that the Patriots* cheated. The latter is by no means an excuse for the former and no one here is saying it is.
Doc Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 I laid out my standard of proof above--if the League's officials measured all balls pre-game and found them compliant and then measured them again at halftime and found the Pats*' balls to be non-compliant and the Colts' balks to be compliant that's really all you need to know to implicate tampering and mete out punishment. All of the recent garbage about "beyond a reasonable doubt" that Florio and other Pats' mouthpieces are putting out there to muddy the waters is just that--garbage designed to obfuscate the real issue. What they're doing is something criminal defense lawyers have gotten quite good at recently--setting the proof bar so high that no one is ever guilty of anything. The obvious difference here is that this is not a criminal trial and such severe proof standards should not apply, despite Mr. Florio's recent attempts to spin it otherwise. Seems pretty obvious to me, but just like Belicheat tried to do with his laughable press conference, they're trying to create in advance a defense where there should not be one. Your continued dismissal of any criticism of the Pats* has gotten quite old, BTW. As we've seen in many areas of sports (Lance Armstrong, the steroid era in baseball, Spygate, etc.) and society (Wall Street and politics come to mind), cheaters do quite often prosper, but that's all the more reason to hold folks fully accountable when caught. Otherwise, the message being sent is it's ok to cheat as long as you win, which personally is not the message that I think society should be sending. Think the Pats* are some poor, unjustly accused franchise? Go read O'Leary's book on Spygate or if you don't have the time, the NYT article from May, 2008 in which several members of the NFL competition committee state that it was really just one team brought before them for suspicion of cheating, over and over again. Any guess as to which team that was? We don't know what will actually be found by the committee (assuming it's not just a big cover up like Spygate turned out to be when Goodell destroyed the tapes and then lied about how extensive the practice was, as was later shown by the tapes Matt Walsh produced), but if the evidence is as I laid it out above the Pats* should be punished. Period. Full stop. All of this has nothing to do with the Bills losing, other than perhaps cheating in our games, but you always seem to conflate the two. One can fault the Bills for fielding bad teams while still pointing out that the Patriots* cheated. The latter is by no means an excuse for the former and no one here is saying it is. You'll have to forgive John. He's been making excuses for the Pats for years now and is entrenched in his position that they're a franchise beyond reproach and who have attained their success through nothing but hard work, without cheating, luck, or outside intervention. Lance Armstrong fans would be wise to study him.
Pneumonic Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 I laid out my standard of proof above--if the League's officials measured all balls pre-game and found them compliant and then measured them again at halftime and found the Pats*' balls to be non-compliant and the Colts' balks to be compliant that's really all you need to know to implicate tampering and mete out punishment. Seems pretty obvious to me, but just like Belicheat tried to do with his laughable press conference, they're trying to create in advance a defense where there should not be one. We don't know what will actually be found by the committee (assuming it's not just a big cover up like Spygate turned out to be when Goodell destroyed the tapes and then lied about how extensive the practice was, as was later shown by the tapes Matt Walsh produced), but if the evidence is as I laid it out above the Pats* should be punished. Period. Full stop. So long as we are speculating ..... let's suppose that, pre-game, the Colts footballs measured legal at 13.5 PSI while the Pats came in legal at 12.5 PSI. Everyone's happy. The weather conditions during the game were such that both sets of footballs lose ~1 PSI. When re-measured at halftime, the Colts' 13.5 PSI set of balls now measure 12.5 PSI which are still within legal spec. Meanwhile, the Pats once legal 12.5 PSI set of balls now measure 11.5 PSI which makes them 1 PSI out of spec and now illegal. All happens without any tampering done by anyone besides mother nature. This was the pt Belichick was trying to make during his press conference which, not everyone seemingly deciphered.
Kelly the Dog Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 So long as we are speculating ..... let's suppose that, pre-game, the Colts footballs measured legal at 13.5 PSI while the Pats came in legal at 12.5 PSI. Everyone's happy. The weather conditions during the game were such that both sets of footballs lose ~1 PSI. When re-measured at halftime, the Colts' 13.5 PSI set of balls now measure 12.5 PSI which are still within legal spec. Meanwhile, the Pats once legal 12.5 PSI set of balls now measure 11.5 PSI which makes them 1 PSI out of spec and now illegal. All happens without any tampering done by anyone besides mother nature. This was the pt Belichick was trying to make during his press conference which, not everyone seemingly deciphered. But if that happened there would be no investigation. So that didn't happen.
4merper4mer Posted February 22, 2015 Posted February 22, 2015 So long as we are speculating ..... let's suppose that, pre-game, the Colts footballs measured legal at 13.5 PSI while the Pats came in legal at 12.5 PSI. Everyone's happy. The weather conditions during the game were such that both sets of footballs lose ~1 PSI. When re-measured at halftime, the Colts' 13.5 PSI set of balls now measure 12.5 PSI which are still within legal spec. Meanwhile, the Pats once legal 12.5 PSI set of balls now measure 11.5 PSI which makes them 1 PSI out of spec and now illegal. All happens without any tampering done by anyone besides mother nature. This was the pt Belichick was trying to make during his press conference which, not everyone seemingly deciphered. Was it minus 4000 degrees that day?
MattM Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 So long as we are speculating ..... let's suppose that, pre-game, the Colts footballs measured legal at 13.5 PSI while the Pats came in legal at 12.5 PSI. Everyone's happy. The weather conditions during the game were such that both sets of footballs lose ~1 PSI. When re-measured at halftime, the Colts' 13.5 PSI set of balls now measure 12.5 PSI which are still within legal spec. Meanwhile, the Pats once legal 12.5 PSI set of balls now measure 11.5 PSI which makes them 1 PSI out of spec and now illegal. All happens without any tampering done by anyone besides mother nature. This was the pt Belichick was trying to make during his press conference which, not everyone seemingly deciphered. If that turns out to be the case, then that might happen naturally and so it would be tough to blame the Pats* on that. Early reports, however, were that most Pats* balls were 2 psi below normal, which, if true, would mean tampering if the Colts balls were all still within the accepted range, don't you agree? Unless the Pats*, in addition to their own officials, get their own rules of physics, too. I will save you the trouble of posting that those initial reports were then followed by pro-Pats* leaks (Florio again, among others) claiming that most Pats* balls were barely under 12.5 psi. To borrow from St Doug, "obviously" we'll need to see what the facts turn out to be here before any conclusions can be made.
Pneumonic Posted February 23, 2015 Posted February 23, 2015 But if that happened there would be no investigation. So that didn't happen. We don't know what truly happened. All we have is speculation and rumor. Was it minus 4000 degrees that day? All it needed to be was around a 20-23 delta T to see a weather induced psi drop that was suitable to cause the under-inflated ball condition. Here's a quick example. Outdoor temp during game: 51F = 283.71K =Tout Indoor temp when measuring balls: 74F = 296.48K = Tin Assume: Pb (ball psig) = 14.56 psi (atmosphere) Pi = Pb+12.5 (min psi of ball at time of weighing) = 27.06 psi Doing the maths: PV=nRT -> Pi/Tin = Po/Tout 27.06/296.48 = Po/283.71 Po=25.89 dP=1.17 P=12.5-1.17=11.23psi
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