NFL Sting operation goes bad and backfires on the Goodell

[17 Josh Allen]

no way

Edited January 25, 2015 by billsareback

[Nanker]

breaking news Goodell tries to catch the patriots cheating. He even has the gull

to attend Pats owners krafts party the night before only to know that they were going

to lay a trap on the pats on this ball deflate issue. Colts, Ravens and Jets along

with Chris Mortison from ESPN and Goodell are implicated. This does not look good for the NFL and vindicates the Pats. What a royal screw up by the NFL

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/25/nfl-bears-plenty-of-blame-for-deflategate/

Can't let this one go.

[Kelly the Dog]

How the hell does it vindicate the Pats when the NFL suspects they cheat, does nothing but take the balls out of the game in the middle of it, and then catches them cheating?

 

That's real vindication.

[Beef Jerky]

What happened in this thread?

[Alphadawg7]

Honestly, this fiasco falls almost entirely on the NFL, not the Pats. F the Pats, but if I remove being biased, then it becomes clear the NFL is almost completely at fault here.

 

1. First off, there are NO real reports on this. The NFL hasn't confirmed much of anything, most of it are "leaked" reports. No one knows for sure how many balls, how much they varied, etc as nothing has been confirmed from what I can see from the NFL.

 

2. We have no idea if the Refs even check the PSI with a gauge. Very very possible, that some or many refs have just done the eye ball and squeeze test to make sure balls seem good rather than take the time to check each balls PSI with a gauge. In fact, Aaron Rodgers stating he OVER inflates them to the rules to see if the refs will deflate them strongly suggests that gauges are not always used and that part has been loosely enforced. If a gauge was used every time, Aaron wouldnt waste time over inflating them, not to mention the NFL would have told him to stop already.

 

3. The NFL doesn't check PSI before, during, and after a game unless there is a cause too. They supposedly check pre game, but even thats come into question just how religiously its checked with a gauge versus just feeling it out. So there is no way to know how common or uncommon it is that a balls PSI has naturally changed or been intentionally changed in every game played.

 

4. Current and past QBs have admitted to doing all kinds of things to the balls, yet none of that is getting any attention because the NFL wants this to go away.

 

5. The balls apparently have been checked in conditions with significant variables rather than consistent environments. If the PSI during the game is what matters, then all balls need to be checked on the field of play with game conditions.

 

6. The process now is for officials to check the balls then give them back to the ball boys and teams. If this is such an issue, why are the balls not checked just prior to kickoff and kept in a visible area that is controlled by the referees? Instead, they give them back to the teams where they can do whatever they want to them prior to game time. They could simply have a bin on each side of the field for each teams footballs isolated and visible until a ball is needed in which its grabbed by a ball boy and immediately given to a ref for play.

 

7. A range of 1 psi variance is really stupid in the first place. The QB should be able to adjust it as no QBs hands are the same. Some are very big, some are very small...some are strong, some aren't as strong. Grip varies, so there needs to be a wider range of variance to keep the playing field even. A guy like Aaron Rodgers has big strong hands and has an advantage with a higher PSI, he said so himself. So why does a QB with a lower grip strength and smaller hands have to use a stiffer ball that doesn't play to his grip as well? PSI should be set a min like 10.5 and anything above it is fine. Kicking balls should have a stricter factor as it does make a difference on how far you can kick it.

 

8. How do we know that Pats didn't inflate to the min PSI initially with a gauge that was off? Gauges are off all the time. They may have inflated to the min PSI allowable, but if their gauge was wrong then they are going to be off. And if the refs just squeeze tested, they wouldnt have noticed pre game until they used a gauge to check it after the INT.

 

Serioulsy, the balls had no impact on that game. In fact, NE played better with Indys balls then their own. Yet here we are with this stupid black cloud over the biggest game of the year. Its been grossly mishandled by the NFL and I suspect the NFL is putting so much energy into this because of a few reasons:

 

1. They looked so bad about not taking enough action with Ray Rice.

2. They know its their own negligence that has allowed this to take place in the first place.

3. Its the Pats, and the NFL always looks bad and still takes heat for how it handled spygate (another situation over blown because how bad it was handled).

 

None of this means the Pats did or didn't cheat...it means the NFL has screwed themselves so bad here that I seriously doubt there will ever be enough information to either prove their guilt or innocnence, and that is 100% why the NFL is at fault. If this is such an issue, they should have a significantly better process and system which wouldnt be hard to do at all.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Alphadawg7

[Kelly the Dog]

Alphadawg, Bellicheat said yesterday the Patriots gave the balls to the refs and TOLD THE REFS to set the pressure at 12.5.

 

That shows they do and did test them, and the Pats didn't know this was a special game or anything so that implies that is what they always do.

[sodbuster]

Can't let this one go.

Yeah, that's a new one. Good catch.

[Alphadawg7]

Alphadawg, Bellicheat said yesterday the Patriots gave the balls to the refs and TOLD THE REFS to set the pressure at 12.5.

 

That shows they do and did test them, and the Pats didn't know this was a special game or anything so that implies that is what they always do.

 

The problem is Kelly, we don't have any confirmed information or facts from the NFL. We don't actually know what they did or didn't do. We don't know how many were off and by how much officially. We don't know what equipment they used to check it and if they used the same equipment to check it during the game when the balls came into question. Everything we supposedly know comes from leaked reports from unnamed sources.

 

A LOT of the info that has leaked has already been proven incorrect. D'Qwell already stated he gave the ball over to save it as a souvenir, not because he felt something was wrong with it. Yet every report stated he complained about the ball being under inflated. Jim Harbaugh came out and stated that the Ravens at no point ever had any suspicion or questions about the balls used in the game against the Pats...yet all these reports claim the Ravens also complained about them. So, when all we have are a bunch of anonymous reports and leaks, thats not very accurate information to go on...Again, that falls on the NFL for not allowing this to get blown out of proportion with all these alleged reports, many of which already proving false.

 

What we do know is that NFL QBs, past and present, have openly admitted to doing all kinds of things to balls, including over inflating them. We also know that all of that is possible because of how poorly the balls are handled by the NFL to prevent such possibilities. We also know that this is going to be pretty hard to prove or disprove given the immense amount of variables allowed to exist because of how loosely the NFL handles regulating this rule. We also know that the balls PSI had literally zero to do with the Pats win, regardless as to why it happened.

 

What that equates too is that this event, which had no impact on the outcome of the game, is now being made into something bigger than it is all because the NFL has a very poor system for enforcing a rule that apparently wasnt important enough to pay attention to until it became a news story. We also don't have any idea how common this is because balls are not checked during the game and post game unless there is a reason to.

 

At the end of the day, the balls PSI could be off from negligence by the refs, manipulation by the pats, inconsistent gauges, varied environments, temperature fluctuation, or even something as far fetched as bribed or paid off refs. All of that falls at the feet of the NFL for the weak system in place and how poorly they have handled this in the media.

Edited January 25, 2015 by Alphadawg7

[Kelly the Dog]

Sorry but the NFL, if they were trying to find out how this really happened would RETARDED if they released any information officially at all about it, because it would do nothing but help the people trying to hide what happened. Furthermore, it's obvious to anyone that there was something very wrong done because they are interviewing 60-70-80 people. They know what happened by now, they want to know how it happened, otherwise it would be over by now.

[Alphadawg7]

Sorry but the NFL, if they were trying to find out how this really happened would RETARDED if they released any information officially at all about it, because it would do nothing but help the people trying to hide what happened. Furthermore, it's obvious to anyone that there was something very wrong done because they are interviewing 60-70-80 people. They know what happened by now, they want to know how it happened, otherwise it would be over by now.

 

How would they look retarded if they came out and said what they are investigating? Yes its clear something is being looked into in relation to the balls. But they could very easily come out and state that under inflated ball found during the game launched a probe into the pressure of the balls. During said probe, it was discovered that X amount of balls were X amount under inflated. They could also state whether or not the Indy balls were tested and what those findings were.

 

Remember, the Indy balls being in the allowable PSI range is meaningless in terms of whether or not their PSI was lower than what it was originally set at. For instance, how do we know that the Indy balls didn't start at the max PSI and then when later tested found to be lower but still in the allowable PSI range? That would show either natural deflation or inconsistency in the process of checking these and then in game tests.

 

There is a LOT of information not known by the public...and letting the media stew in this is completely deflating the value of the biggest game of the year. Pun intended

[Kelly the Dog]

 

How would they look retarded if they came out and said what they are investigating? Yes its clear something is being looked into in relation to the balls. But they could very easily come out and state that under inflated ball found during the game launched a probe into the pressure of the balls. During said probe, it was discovered that X amount of balls were X amount under inflated. They could also state whether or not the Indy balls were tested and what those findings were.

 

Remember, the Indy balls being in the allowable PSI range is meaningless in terms of whether or not their PSI was lower than what it was originally set at. For instance, how do we know that the Indy balls didn't start at the max PSI and then when later tested found to be lower but still in the allowable PSI range? That would show either natural deflation or inconsistency in the process of checking these and then in game tests.

 

There is a LOT of information not known by the public...and letting the media stew in this is completely deflating the value of the biggest game of the year. Pun intended

You can't figure out that if they said how many balls and what they were it wouldnt be easier for the Patriots to concoct a story to fit that narrative? That's like prosecutors telling the defense team in a trial all they learned from their interviews. Why do you think they are waiting until the end to speak to Brady? It's obvious.

[MattM]

To my mind, the one new piece of info in that PFT article is another unnamed League source saying other than the picked off ball (which was 2 psi below normal), the others were closer to only 1 psi below normal, which contradicts what other unnamed League sources supposedly said earlier this week.

 

Personally, I think we need to know:

 

1. What the initial pressmen psi results were for all 3 sets of balls;

2. what the halftime readings for all 3 sets;

3. What the chain of ball possession was for the bad balls;

4. What the pre-measurement process was for the bad balls--I personally think that part of BB's presser yesterday was not believable. He made it sound like their ball buffing is done immediately prior to testing, which defies both common sense and what TB apparently said earlier this week;

5. What the final readings were for all 3 sets post-game; and

6. Definitive scientific opinion on 4's ability to influence psi count as claimed by the Pats*.

 

If this truly was a sting operation, I'd expect them to have all the data above other than 3 and 4.

[Alphadawg7]

You can't figure out that if they said how many balls and what they were it wouldnt be easier for the Patriots to concoct a story to fit that narrative? That's like prosecutors telling the defense team in a trial all they learned from their interviews. Why do you think they are waiting until the end to speak to Brady? It's obvious.

 

Wait, are you assuming the Patriots don't know what the NFL knows? LOL, they are part of the investigation...how do you expect the NFL to ask the Patriots questions about something if they don't tell them what they are asking about? lol

 

No offense, but what you just said makes no senses. And if you want to talk about prosecutors and trials...the defense and prosecutors have a right to know all the evidence each side is submitting, other wise its not submittable. In fact, even when I fought my dog ticket on the beach, I wasnt allowed to challenge the officer in court until we met outside the court room and I allowed him to see everything I was presenting prior to actually presenting it in court. And this was true for everyone challenging a ticket or case. I beat that ticket by the way lol

To my mind, the one new piece of info in that PFT article is another unnamed League source saying other than the picked off ball (which was 2 psi below normal), the others were closer to only 1 psi below normal, which contradicts what other unnamed League sources supposedly said earlier this week.

 

Personally, I think we need to know:

 

1. What the initial pressmen psi results were for all 3 sets of balls;

2. what the halftime readings for all 3 sets;

3. What the chain of ball possession was for the bad balls;

4. What the pre-measurement process was for the bad balls--I personally think that part of BB's presser yesterday was not believable. He made it sound like their ball buffing is done immediately prior to testing, which defies both common sense and what TB apparently said earlier this week;

5. What the final readings were for all 3 sets post-game; and

6. Definitive scientific opinion on 4's ability to influence psi count as claimed by the Pats*.

 

If this truly was a sting operation, I'd expect them to have all the data above other than 3 and 4.

Agreed

[Kelly the Dog]

 

Wait, are you assuming the Patriots don't know what the NFL knows? LOL, they are part of the investigation...how do you expect the NFL to ask the Patriots questions about something if they don't tell them what they are asking about? lol

They havent interviewed any player yet as far as has been reported. No, the Patriots don't know what the NFL knows.

[FLBillsGuy]

Which gull did he attend with? C. Gull?

[timtebow15]

I think this will really spell the end of Goodell's tenure. He is a terrible commissioner and when will the owners figure that out? Does he handle anything well? His close ties to Kraft make this a no-win situation for him. Look at how he came down on Payton in New Orleans when he didn't know what was going on and none of that was illegal. How can the NFL not do the same for the Pats? Whoever did it, the organization was responsible for 11 or the 12 balls being altered while none of the Colts were altered.

[Alphadawg7]

They havent interviewed any player yet as far as has been reported. No, the Patriots don't know what the NFL knows.

 

Wait, so you said the NFL has interviewed "60-70-80" people, and now you want me to believe that not one of them is associated with the Pats? Not one? Exactly how many people are connected the air pressure of a football that you can say 2 posts ago that they interviewed up to 80 people and NONE of them be in the Pats organization? Lol

[JohnC]

How would they look retarded if they came out and said what they are investigating? Yes its clear something is being looked into in relation to the balls. But they could very easily come out and state that under inflated ball found during the game launched a probe into the pressure of the balls. During said probe, it was discovered that X amount of balls were X amount under inflated. They could also state whether or not the Indy balls were tested and what those findings were.

 

Remember, the Indy balls being in the allowable PSI range is meaningless in terms of whether or not their PSI was lower than what it was originally set at. For instance, how do we know that the Indy balls didn't start at the max PSI and then when later tested found to be lower but still in the allowable PSI range? That would show either natural deflation or inconsistency in the process of checking these and then in game tests.

 

 

There is a LOT of information not known by the public...and letting the media stew in this is completely deflating the value of the biggest game of the year. Pun intended

Do you want to know what Bills' fans are most afraid of? That nothing can be proven that the Pats did anything improper.

 

As some experts have noted there isn't a precise method to measure the balls because a lot of variables have to be taken into account. The temperature, atmosphere etc can influence the PSI. There is no secret that Brady prefers a less inflated ball. And there is no secret that Rodgers prefers a higher inflated ball. Does anyone doubt that there is a variation on their respective balls?

 

If you measure the PSI prior to game that doesn't mean that the ball will remain at the same PSI level after the game due to it being banged around and affected by the elements and atmosphere.

 

The reason why there is such an frenzied attention to this issue is because the Patriots and Belichick are involved. There is no doubt that Belichick has a history of going to the edge with rules. But that doesn't mean that he did anything or ordered anything nefarious with respect to the ball issue.

 

The Pats have won eleven division titles in twelve years. They have beaten the Bills 21 out of 22 times (I think??). Instead of trying to make excuses why we regularly lose and make excuses why other teams regularly win the hometown fans should be more concerned with building their own winning legacy.

 

If there is a stretching of the rules in this case it has to be considered that stretching the rules is part of the game in this sport and other sports. Some teams pipe up the music and some teams adjust the field of play to make it a quicker or slower field depending on what would give the hometeam the most advantage.

 

Too many people are reacting as if there has been a major moral trangression with respect to this football issue. Its not--and it is absurd to act as if it is. What is obvious is whether there was an infringement on a rule it had no bearing on the outcome of the game.

 

The response to this topic is not only way out of proportion to the incident it is also very embarrassing to witness. In this SB game I am rooting for the AFC team. They should be the model for us on how to run a successful franchise.

Edited January 26, 2015 by JohnC

[Kelly the Dog]

 

Wait, so you said the NFL has interviewed "60-70-80" people, and now you want me to believe that not one of them is associated with the Pats? Not one? Exactly how many people are connected the air pressure of a football that you can say 2 posts ago that they interviewed up to 80 people and NONE of them be in the Pats organization? Lol

No you can't read.

They have already interviewed over 40. They will I imagine interview 60-80 since they havent interviewed any Patriots player or Bellichick or others yet. I have no idea how many of the 40 were members of the Pats organization, I imagine some. But no players.

[Alphadawg7]

I think this will really spell the end of Goodell's tenure. He is a terrible commissioner and when will the owners figure that out? Does he handle anything well? His close ties to Kraft make this a no-win situation for him. Look at how he came down on Payton in New Orleans when he didn't know what was going on and none of that was illegal. How can the NFL not do the same for the Pats? Whoever did it, the organization was responsible for 11 or the 12 balls being altered while none of the Colts were altered.

 

Yeah, i think Goodell needs to be replaced. The way he tries to rule players with an iron fist every time they show fun or personality compared to how poorly he manages real situations is just absurd.

 

I am not saying the Pats are innocent here, I am stating that if the PSI is so important then the NFL is very negligent in how it regulates and enforces it, and thats on them. Quite frankly, the truth is the PSI isn't very important and actually the limited range it has equates to not having an equal playing field for each QB. The PSI should be dictated by the QB, not the NFL. Its NOT an advantage if everyone can do it...but it can be a disadvantage to QBs with smaller hands and weaker grips if the PSI is too high just like its a disadvantage to guys like Aaron Rodgers when the PSI isn't high enough because his grip is stronger and his hands bigger.

 

There should be a min, that basically equates the ball having adequate air to be considered fully inflated which I would guess 10 PSI or 10.5 PSI is plenty. Everything above should be allowed. Its that simple. Again, not an advantage, its about the ball being equally comfortable in all QBs hands no matter size of hand or how hard they grip it.