todd Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 Good point Todd, I had not thought of it that way, but is that how the substitution rule is written, or does it strictly say player and not position? I don't actually know how the substitution rule is written, but if you think of it in terms of players switching positions without much notice, it is a substitution. When a WR lines up as a OL, then decides he's a WR again, with someone outside of him becoming a OL, it is a substitution.
plenzmd1 Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 I don't actually know how the substitution rule is written, but if you think of it in terms of players switching positions without much notice, it is a substitution. When a WR lines up as a OL, then decides he's a WR again, with someone outside of him becoming a OL, it is a substitution. I think that was what Dungy was referring to in the interview. BTW, has backed off , and actually apologized , formsaying Hawks shoul fake injury, and also the illegal formation claim. https://mobile.twitter.com/tonydungy Don't know how to spot the actual tweets from my phone.
NoSaint Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 That's not the point. The point is that 1) the Pats are using the eligibility/ineligibility ploy to get around the substitution rules, and 2) in doing so, while they are following the rules to the letter, they certainly aren't following them in spirit. Have they done that, or have coaches generally neglected using the rule and now you assume to know the spirit based on usage? You've seen this at lower levels, and I've heard coaches say they train their kids to actually identify formations instead of just looking at numbers. If coaches prepare for this its not near the controversial thing most act like. Rush against 4 lineman and make them pay by playing 11-10 ignoring the guy wide. It's not used because unless you are catching a pooy coached team by surprise you aren't using your resources optimally. NE decided to take a risk, not that different than putting the qb at wr and running the wildcat (oh my, how should my defense ever handle this strange formation!)
machine gun kelly Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 I would expect Carroll to do exactly what Dungy suggests. I'd make the game a complete mockery with player after player going down for one play and then coming back in later. It will infuriate Goodell and the NFL, to totally make the most watched game on the planet a farse. The rules will change in a heartbeat and the Patriots will be known as a cheating, deflating, exploitation of the rules type of team. This is not what I want, but the only other option is the refs are ready in droves to micromanage every play continuing to stop the clock and ensure things are done right. In this case, the SB will be four hours and in that scenario, the Pats will still be blamed for ruining the game. My home office for my company is in a superb of Boston, so as a manager I'm up there all of the time. My counterpart who manages the NE tells me the fans and announcers in Boston are calling for firing Belicheck. Their reasoning is Kraft absolutely hates not having a stellar Lilly white image. I was shocked, and told him no way would he get rid of the winningest coach in Patriots history as well as the best coach of this era. He told me he wouldn't be surprised as it is bad up there. I seriously doubt that would happen, but the distractions for the team must be significant.
NoSaint Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 (edited) I don't actually know how the substitution rule is written, but if you think of it in terms of players switching positions without much notice, it is a substitution. When a WR lines up as a OL, then decides he's a WR again, with someone outside of him becoming a OL, it is a substitution. So a guy reports ineligible, then walks out and lines up as one of the 5 guys on the line in the middle with the 2 outside him eligible, and the defense is bamboozled? It was poor awareness in the moment like mcNabb not knowing how overtime works. If these guys actually learn the fundamentals of formations instead of "I cover a guy in the 80s" it's not just easy but gives them an advantage when NE does this as the ineligible guy doesn't even need to be covered. Ignore him from the moment he reports even. Edited January 24, 2015 by NoSaint
1billsfan Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 Seriously, how does Tony Dungy have a job? I can not take than man seriously. He is such a mushy nothing analyst. First of all, no one cares about the substitution plays right now you clown. Try giving your thoughts about deflate gate. Oh that's right, you refuse to say anything which has a hint of controversy. So Tony, do you think Bill and Tom are lying? "Ah ah ah ah ah ah ah ah...well...ah ah ah ah ah ah...I don't know...what I can tell you is that I don't like those substitution plays or Jameis Winstin." In the update of that nothing story, Dungy retracted his statement about telling his players to fake an injury in reaction to the substitution plays. He's about as firm as jello...LOL
D. L. Hot-Flamethrower Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 Looks like the rule book will get a little more complicated in the offseason. That is how the IRS rules got so complicated too.
bills_fan_in_raleigh Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 I would expect Carroll to do exactly what Dungy suggests. I'd make the game a complete mockery with player after player going down for one play and then coming back in later. It will infuriate Goodell and the NFL, to totally make the most watched game on the planet a farse. The rules will change in a heartbeat and the Patriots will be known as a cheating, deflating, exploitation of the rules type of team. This is not what I want, but the only other option is the refs are ready in droves to micromanage every play continuing to stop the clock and ensure things are done right. In this case, the SB will be four hours and in that scenario, the Pats will still be blamed for ruining the game. My home office for my company is in a superb of Boston, so as a manager I'm up there all of the time. My counterpart who manages the NE tells me the fans and announcers in Boston are calling for firing Belicheck. Their reasoning is Kraft absolutely hates not having a stellar Lilly white image. I was shocked, and told him no way would he get rid of the winningest coach in Patriots history as well as the best coach of this era. He told me he wouldn't be surprised as it is bad up there. I seriously doubt that would happen, but the distractions for the team must be significant. this ploy was executed perfectly by the hoodie* in SB25. I recall many Giants Defenders down on ground in agony only to return a play later to make a stellar defensive play.
Mr. WEO Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 So a guy reports ineligible, then walks out and lines up as one of the 5 guys on the line in the middle with the 2 outside him ineligible, and the defense is bamboozled? It was poor awareness in the moment like mcNabb not knowing how overtime works. If these guys actually learn the fundamentals of formations instead of "I cover a guy in the 80s" it's not just easy but gives them an advantage when NE does this as the ineligible guy doesn't even need to be covered. Ignore him from the moment he reports even. I poated to that effect earlier. It's the silliest argument ever. This is something that could fool a defense MAYBE once. Yet poster here don't understand this. They go on as though this can be done successfully an infinite number of times--like there is simply no countering it. It's bizarre. But it's just more red meat.
Sisyphean Bills Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 I would expect Carroll to do exactly what Dungy suggests. I'd make the game a complete mockery with player after player going down for one play and then coming back in later. It will infuriate Goodell and the NFL, to totally make the most watched game on the planet a farse. The rules will change in a heartbeat and the Patriots will be known as a cheating, deflating, exploitation of the rules type of team. This is not what I want, but the only other option is the refs are ready in droves to micromanage every play continuing to stop the clock and ensure things are done right. In this case, the SB will be four hours and in that scenario, the Pats will still be blamed for ruining the game. My home office for my company is in a superb of Boston, so as a manager I'm up there all of the time. My counterpart who manages the NE tells me the fans and announcers in Boston are calling for firing Belicheck. Their reasoning is Kraft absolutely hates not having a stellar Lilly white image. I was shocked, and told him no way would he get rid of the winningest coach in Patriots history as well as the best coach of this era. He told me he wouldn't be surprised as it is bad up there. I seriously doubt that would happen, but the distractions for the team must be significant. Meh. I'd rather prep my team to recognize the formation. Since the Patriots are intentionally lining up with a RB playing "OT" and split many yards too wide to be involved in the play in any way whatsoever (other than purely as a decoy), it's an invitation to totally crush Tom "Softballs" Brady.
NoSaint Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 I poated to that effect earlier. It's the silliest argument ever. This is something that could fool a defense MAYBE once. Yet poster here don't understand this. They go on as though this can be done successfully an infinite number of times--like there is simply no countering it. It's bizarre. But it's just more red meat. My typo saying the the two outside weren't eligible, when clearly they are, aside (and now fixed)...it screams that the defense was taught the fundamentals poorly. Which isn't crazy. we see guys that are clueless of basic rules and how to handle situations all the time. We would love to have. Rex do the same.
Fadingpain Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 I would expect Carroll to do exactly what Dungy suggests. I'd make the game a complete mockery with player after player going down for one play and then coming back in later. It will infuriate Goodell and the NFL, to totally make the most watched game on the planet a farse. The rules will change in a heartbeat and the Patriots will be known as a cheating, deflating, exploitation of the rules type of team. This is not what I want, but the only other option is the refs are ready in droves to micromanage every play continuing to stop the clock and ensure things are done right. In this case, the SB will be four hours and in that scenario, the Pats will still be blamed for ruining the game. My home office for my company is in a superb of Boston, so as a manager I'm up there all of the time. My counterpart who manages the NE tells me the fans and announcers in Boston are calling for firing Belicheck. Their reasoning is Kraft absolutely hates not having a stellar Lilly white image. I was shocked, and told him no way would he get rid of the winningest coach in Patriots history as well as the best coach of this era. He told me he wouldn't be surprised as it is bad up there. I seriously doubt that would happen, but the distractions for the team must be significant. Yep. That's how you get this sort of crap out of the sport...you make a deliberate mockery and spectacle over it and force something to be done. This is just what Philly did with Tampa's neutral zone trap a few years ago in the NHL. Tampa was clogging the neutral ice and not sending a single forechecker in over the offensive blue line...so Philly just held the puck in their own D zone and dared Tampa to do something about it. Resulted in one of the weirder situations I've ever seen in a hockey game.
mountainwampus Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 Dungy is right. I've seen games where refs hold up the snap if teams try to deceive with a substitution or last minute ineligible receiver. They will stand over the ball. In the case of the Pats, throwing to guys in the LT position, they are declaring at the last second, the ref is sprinting away to allow for a quick snap. It's dirty cheating. Another tactic they've used in recent years is the "pretend to go for it, then sprint the punt unit on the field." Since when is it legal to not allow a team to switch to special teams? That's another type of play the ref needs to delay the snap and allow the Defense off the field. That's how refs do it in non-Patriot games.
TheBillsWillRiseAgain Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 The Patriots have nobody to blame for this but themselves. You get caught cheating twice and every strategy, tactic, and play is going to be retroactively scrutinized by everyone. It doesn't matter of this kind of substitution is technically legal. Anything that goes against the spirit of Tue game and fair competition will be pointed out for the Patriots now. They lost their right to fly under the radar when it comes to the grey areas of football.
Mr. WEO Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 My typo saying the the two outside weren't eligible, when clearly they are, aside (and now fixed)...it screams that the defense was taught the fundamentals poorly. Which isn't crazy. we see guys that are clueless of basic rules and how to handle situations all the time. We would love to have. Rex do the same. I agree with you NoSaint. I was referring to others who claim this is still an effective "deception" that needs to be "addressed".
JDHILL Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 The rules allow for the exact substitutions that NE did. The refs did enforce the rules. Jim Harbaugh didn't understand. Instead of calling a TO, he whined. It's John Harbaugh.... and the problem was and is for any team that they did not know in sufficient time who was an eligible receiver and who was not. It is deceptive when a running back is in the slot or outside and is not eligible but the TE who looks like an extra lineman is. Harbaugh's issue was his defense was not finding out who was eligible in time for them to cover that person. They were covering the outside man who was ineligible. That's a trick and not a trick play. It may have been within the rules in a concrete sense but there is no way it met any "spirit of fair play". The Patriots under Belichek have always operated under the premise that they will stretch the rules until they are told no or get caught. They pretty much bully the NFL. There's sufficient evidence to back it up Also, look at how they use picks or rubs, it's a judgement call so they do it alot and see if anyone calls it. It's the same way with how their DB's used to constantly hold Colts receivers until Polian complained so much.
Captain Caveman Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 Am I in heaven? Rex is the coach and everyone is ripping the Pats* nonstop for being cheaters Really, that's heaven? Seems like you're setting the bar pretty low. How about we beat the Pats last week (in spite of their cheating) and are on our way to crush some fools in the Super Bowl. That, and you know, watching the game with some dead relatives?
Fadingpain Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 Really, that's heaven? Seems like you're setting the bar pretty low. How about we beat the Pats last week (in spite of their cheating) and are on our way to crush some fools in the Super Bowl. That, and you know, watching the game with some dead relatives? It's the years of mediocrity, Captain. It creates a certain type of numbness that does funny things to the brain. We are all victims of this disease one way or another. Christ, I have forgotten what it's like to wake up on the morning of a Bills playoff game, filled with excitement, nervousness, and anticipation. I can't remember how that feels now. The good news is that things are turning around now. The symptoms are starting to fade.
May Day 10 Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 It's gaming the rules. It's not football imo. It is currently legal but it needs to be patched up.
TheFunPolice Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 Really, that's heaven? Seems like you're setting the bar pretty low. How about we beat the Pats last week (in spite of their cheating) and are on our way to crush some fools in the Super Bowl. That, and you know, watching the game with some dead relatives? lol Good points... Once NE* wins the SB next week I'll be re-thinking that anyway.... I'm just enjoying this week, because I will probably have to shut off the SB in the 4th quarter and avoid any and all sports media/message boards for a solid couple weeks.
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