Sammy V Odell Beckham

[thebandit27]

Depends on who is taken with the pick. What if the first and fourth are both colossal busts?

Sort of like when Atlanta gave up an enormous package of picks for Julio Jones, and that package of picks turned out to be Phil Taylor (a NT that "anchors" the worst run defense in the NFL) and a bunch of guys that no longer play for the Browns?

[John from Riverside]

I was saying that Sammy and ODB are probably equal. Neither was worth trading anything to move up to get one or the other. Nobody knows who will end up being better long term (could still be Sammy) but ODB had a much better rookie year and was good enough for us to stay at 9 to pick him. It's not like if we didn't pick Sammy there were no other good receivers left. There were about 5 other pretty good receivers taken after Sammy and all of the scouts knew that going in. We might have picked the best guy (time will tell) but because of what we had to give up to get him it will never be worth it when there are talented receivers like ODB and Kelvin Benjamin lighting up the league

Kdiggs,

 

Fair enough.....but at the time of the draft we have no way of knowing that they will be equal. One of them was rated higher then the other.

 

The bills should not be blamed for overpaying at the time. Its like that game show were you pick door number 1, door number 2, door number 3.

 

We lost a 1st round pick in a weak draft.

[FireChan]

Sort of like when Atlanta gave up an enormous package of picks for Julio Jones, and that package of picks turned out to be Phil Taylor (a NT that "anchors" the worst run defense in the NFL) and a bunch of guys that no longer play for the Browns?

You can't lose trading up with the Browns if history is any indication.

[John from Riverside]

 

 

OK, fine. Let's see the link.

 

Bills backers meetings are covered in exhaustive detail these days.

 

Where's the link?

Thurman,

 

Not all pieces of information are going to have a link......there was no link provided when Leroi spilt about Rex and Roman......it just happened.

 

The poster that talked about Whaley coming down to the bills backers that day his rep is good enough for me.

 

What I am pretty sure of is it was NOT going to be ODB

[Deranged Rhino]

 

 

Excuse me, do you understand the word "lkely"?

 

You didn't say Ebron "likely" would have been the choice. You said Ebron would have been the choice.

 

As for the Bills Backers meetings, they're tweeted, they're blogged, they're on line.

 

As for the Chris Brown deal, he goes out of his way to say that he doesn't know, that it's a guess.

 

 

So if you're saying that your guess is that it would have been Ebron, or if you're saying a Bills source quoted by Tim Graham said it "likely" would have been Ebron, hey, fair enough. But if you're saying it would have been Ebron ...

 

Where ... is ... the ... link?

 

 

Yeah, if I'd disagreed that Sammy would be just fine, you'd really have an argument here. I don't. I think he's going to be very good.

 

Again, for me the question is whether he's going to be the value of a first round pick and a fourth round pick better than the next best guy (excepting Evans, who was already gone by the Bills original pick). And that's really really unlikely at this point.

 

You're wrong. Ebron wasn't "likely" the pick. He was the pick. Confirmed in multiple sources including first hand information from Whaley himself. If you can't believe that, I don't know what to tell you other than you're wrong.

[Thurman#1]

 

Then I urge to you get acquainted with the Search function of this site.

 

 

I'm the one who thinks it doesn't exist. Or at least has never seen it.

 

You folks are the ones saying it exists. It ain't up to me to find it. It's up to the folks saying it's a fact.

[Deranged Rhino]

 

Then I urge to you get acquainted with the Search function of this site.

 

Plus one. If Thurman wants to stick to his incorrect assumptions about the draft that's fine. But there is ample evidence on this board that Ebron was the pick -- not to mention the fact Whaley himself said so to folks.

 

 

I'm the one who thinks it doesn't exist. Or at least has never seen it.

 

You folks are the ones saying it exists. It ain't up to me to find it. It's up to the folks saying it's a fact.

 

You have seen it. It's been linked, you've been directed on whom to ask about it, but you continue to ignore it because it proves your point wrong.

[John from Riverside]

 

 

 

Yeah, case closed. Except not.

 

The Bills gave up three picks. Not two. Three. So many of you try to use two separate verbs here, like they "swapped" this and they "gave up" that. It was one transaction, not two. The amount they traded was the same amount they gave up and the same amount they swapped. All three words have the same meaning here, to relinquish something in a trade.

 

Now in that trade they got back one first.

 

So yeah, the difference was a first and a fourth. To justify this trade, Sammy must be the value of a first and a fourth better than the next best WR in the draft. That's extremely likely to ever happen.

 

But yeah, they traded, gave up and swapped the same three picks, two firsts and a fourth. Saying otherwise is only a desperate attempt to spin the trade to make it look better than it was.

 

 

 

 

Again, Whaley didn't "give up" a first and a fourth. He gave up two firsts and a fourth. "Give up" means relinquish. He relinquished three picks. In return he got the pick that got him Sammy.

 

 

As for them picking Ebron, we've heard it a million times. And there's no proof whatsoever. It's just an article of faith among some of you, mostly those desperate to defend this trade. We might indeed have picked Ebron. Or not. We also might have picked Beckham. Or Zack Martin. Or someone else.

There is no need to "desperately" defend the trade.....Sammy Watkins has a fine rookie season.

 

He was a immediate starter and number 1....he had 2 different QBs throwing to him......he was hurt all season.....the arrow is pointing up.

 

Its more like the people that absolutely have to bash the trade because we dont have a 1st round pick.......

[Thurman#1]

 

You're wrong. Ebron wasn't "likely" the pick. He was the pick. Confirmed in multiple sources including first hand information from Whaley himself. If you can't believe that, I don't know what to tell you other than you're wrong.

 

 

 

Well, fine, again, if it's been confirmed by multiple sources, you won't have trouble finding one and linking to it.

 

So far, though, you haven't.

 

You know as well as I do that the whole "it's an absolute fact, and there are multiple sources" thing, followed by an inability to produce the sources is an almost complete guarantee that something is an urban legend. There've been a million rumors around with tons of people swearing to their absolute truth, that turned out to be false. That's a fact.

 

If you've got a link, fine.

 

Looks to me, though, that you don't. And if you don't, what you've got is a rumor. Not a fact.

[Deranged Rhino]

There is no need to "desperately" defend the trade.....Sammy Watkins has a fine rookie season.

 

He was a immediate starter and number 1....he had 2 different QBs throwing to him......he was hurt all season.....the arrow is pointing up.

 

Its more like the people that absolutely have to bash the trade because we dont have a 1st round pick.......

 

The only "desperate" folks are the JTSPs of the board who are desperate to troll folks about ODB vs Sammy when the jury is still out on both.

 

 

 

Well, fine, again, if it's been confirmed by multiple sources, you won't have trouble finding one and linking to it.

 

So far, though, you haven't.

 

You know as well as I do that the whole "it's an absolute fact, and there are multiple sources" thing, followed by an inability to produce the sources is an almost complete guarantee that something is an urban legend. There've been a million rumors around with tons of people swearing to their absolute truth, that turned out to be false. That's a fact.

 

If you've got a link, fine.

 

Looks to me, though, that you don't. And if you don't, what you've got is a rumor. Not a fact.

 

You've been linked, it's been quoted. You continue to ignore it because you wish to keep your delusions. Whaley said it first hand... don't know how to make it clearer than that. The General Manager of the Buffalo Bills, the man making the pick, told a group of people whom I watch the games with weekly and whom frequent this board, that Ebron was the pick.

 

The fact that the linked article uses a qualifier doesn't disprove it. It's reporting 101... "likely" the pick would be Ebron, likely because the pick didn't happen... because they picked Sammy.

 

You're wrong.

[GG]

 

 

 

Well, fine, again, if it's been confirmed by multiple sources, you won't have trouble finding one and linking to it.

 

So far, though, you haven't.

 

You know as well as I do that the whole "it's an absolute fact, and there are multiple sources" thing, followed by an inability to produce the sources is an almost complete guarantee that something is an urban legend. There've been a million rumors around with tons of people swearing to their absolute truth, that turned out to be false. That's a fact.

 

If you've got a link, fine.

 

Looks to me, though, that you don't. And if you don't, what you've got is a rumor. Not a fact.

 

Next time, do your own homework, Sue.

[John from Riverside]

That makes me lose some faith in Whaley if they were gonna go for Ebron. He still might turn out but he just doesn't seem all that great, especially with the other players available.

Why would it make you lose faith in Whaley HE DIDNT PICK EBRON HE TOOK WATKINS

 

He saw the player he wanted....the price was high.....sometimes a player has so much potential that it is worth the ransom

 

Lets keep in mind that the bills are not the only team that takes chances on non QBs.....there is a certain Texans team...........

[Deranged Rhino]

 

Next time, do your own homework, Sue.

 

Can't wait for the next excuse... "But that's a message board post, I want an actual link to a reporter saying so!"

[Rob's House]

 

Letting the FO off the hook for their decisions, that's what's useless.

 

Fans and the FO itself should always be evaluating. So far, Sammy is a bit behind ODB but seems to be good enough that it wouldnt' be a surprise if he ends up being as good or better.

But what would be a huge surprise at this point is if he ends up being the best WR in the class by a margin that would ever justify the trade value.

 

The standard rule is that you don't trade away two firsts unless you're getting a QB. We broke that rule. It looks like we should not have done so.

I think this is how we should judge the move. It's not just Watkins v ODB, but to what extent he ultimately stands out from his draft class. Anytime you have a rookie WR that racks up ~ 1000 yds you can't really say you missed on the pick, but when 4 other rookie WRs from the same class have as good or better statistical production it's fair to wonder if the price was too high.

 

I don't think he necessarily has to be the best to justify the move - If SW goes on to have a HOF career I won't knock it b/c ODB has a HOF career also, but if he doesn't separate himself from the rest of the pack I think it will be safe to say that perhaps 2 1sts and a 4th was too high a price.

 

Obviously we won't really know for a few more years, but 1 year out that's how it looks.

[Deranged Rhino]

I think this is how we should judge the move. It's not just Watkins v ODB, but to what extent he ultimately stands out from his draft class. Anytime you have a rookie WR that racks up ~ 1000 yds you can't really say you missed on the pick, but when 4 other rookie WRs from the same class have as good or better statistical production it's fair to wonder if the price was too high.

 

I don't think he necessarily has to be the best to justify the move - If SW goes on to have a HOF career I won't knock it b/c ODB has a HOF career also, but if he doesn't separate himself from the rest of the pack I think it will be safe to say that perhaps 2 1sts and a 4th was too high a price.

 

Obviously we won't really know for a few more years, but 1 year out that's how it looks.

 

No problem with this, and you're right... it'll be at least a few years before any determination can be made. Which is why the coronation of ODB as the GOAT is just a bit premature.

[Thurman#1]

Thurman,

 

Not all pieces of information are going to have a link......there was no link provided when Leroi spilt about Rex and Roman......it just happened.

 

The poster that talked about Whaley coming down to the bills backers that day his rep is good enough for me.

 

What I am pretty sure of is it was NOT going to be ODB

 

 

Well, I don't see how you can be pretty sure of it. But as an opinion it's not unreasonable.

 

Graham said it was down to three players, and Buscaglia said before the draft it was down to the same three players, Ebron but also Beckham and Martin. So I don't know how you can be sure of that.

 

 

And you're right that some things don't get on the net or somewhere with a good source. Those things need to be proved before they're treated as facts.

 

If that guy is saying he himself heard this from Whaley, that makes it more likely. But I've heard so many many people over the years report things first-hand that turned out not to be true. I mean, he is treating the Graham thing as proof when it's very very clearly not. That's not a good sign.

 

If there's one thing I've learned over the years it's that people generally hear what they want to hear and see what they want to see. That's why I try to let the evidence tell me what is true, rather than forming my opinion and then combing through the evidence to confirm it.

 

People keep saying there are public sources for this. I haven't found one. The fact that they think those sources said those things is a powerful argument that they're not observing clearly. If I could find one source, hey, I'd change my mind.

 

Although honestly, it wouldn't speak well for Whaley ... who by the way I like.

 

You've been linked, it's been quoted. You continue to ignore it because you wish to keep your delusions. Whaley said it first hand... don't know how to make it clearer than that. The General Manager of the Buffalo Bills, the man making the pick, told a group of people whom I watch the games with weekly and whom frequent this board, that Ebron was the pick.

 

The fact that the linked article uses a qualifier doesn't disprove it. It's reporting 101... "likely" the pick would be Ebron, likely because the pick didn't happen... because they picked Sammy.

 

You're wrong.

 

 

 

There you go.

 

If you think that proves your case, it speaks to the fact that you're not seeing what it says. It says "likely." That's the fact.

[John from Riverside]

I think this is how we should judge the move. It's not just Watkins v ODB, but to what extent he ultimately stands out from his draft class. Anytime you have a rookie WR that racks up ~ 1000 yds you can't really say you missed on the pick, but when 4 other rookie WRs from the same class have as good or better statistical production it's fair to wonder if the price was too high.

 

I don't think he necessarily has to be the best to justify the move - If SW goes on to have a HOF career I won't knock it b/c ODB has a HOF career also, but if he doesn't separate himself from the rest of the pack I think it will be safe to say that perhaps 2 1sts and a 4th was too high a price.

 

Obviously we won't really know for a few more years, but 1 year out that's how it looks.

This actually makes sense.....

 

Now it really is just a matter of fans opinion

 

Over the past 15 years we have had SO MANY first round picks that ended up not working out.........that it really makes no difference to me if he paid a little more for a player that might be special

 

I think Sammy Watkins is special.....as in.....a future multiple pro bowler special

[GG]

 

 

 

There you go.

 

If you think that proves your case, it speaks to the fact that you're not seeing what it says. It says "likely." That's the fact.

 

"Oh, and when TEs were brought up, he did say Ebron was going to be their pick unless something unforeseen happened if they didn't make the Watkins trade."

[John from Riverside]

 

 

Well, I don't see how you can be pretty sure of it. But as an opinion it's not unreasonable.

 

Graham said it was down to three players, and Buscaglia said before the draft it was down to the same three players, Ebron but also Beckham and Martin. So I don't know how you can be sure of that.

 

 

And you're right that some things don't get on the net or somewhere with a good source. Those things need to be proved before they're treated as facts.

 

If that guy is saying he himself heard this from Whaley, that makes it more likely. But I've heard so many many people over the years report things first-hand that turned out not to be true. I mean, he is treating the Graham thing as proof when it's very very clearly not. That's not a good sign.

 

If there's one thing I've learned over the years it's that people generally hear what they want to hear and see what they want to see. That's why I try to let the evidence tell me what is true, rather than forming my opinion and then combing through the evidence to confirm it.

 

People keep saying there are public sources for this. I haven't found one. The fact that they think those sources said those things is a powerful argument that they're not observing clearly. If I could find one source, hey, I'd change my mind.

 

Although honestly, it wouldn't speak well for Whaley ... who by the way I like.

 

 

 

There you go.

 

If you think that proves your case, it speaks to the fact that you're not seeing what it says. It says "likely." That's the fact.

HOLY CRAP

 

You are Sue!

[Deranged Rhino]

If that guy is saying he himself heard this from Whaley, that makes it more likely.

 

That is what has been said since the beginning. You have a serious reading comprehension problem. Whaley said himself, first hand, that Ebron was the pick.