Beerball Posted January 23, 2015 Author Posted January 23, 2015 I think any objective observer of EJ would agree that while the evidence against is compelling, the jury is still out on whether he has what it takes to become a quality NFL QB. "You never know" is a way of saying we really don't know for sure yet, but the odds aren't great. Contrast that with Manziel, who Cleveland's owner effectively declared a bust this week after two horrid starts and a pile of off-field bull **** in his rookie year. In the case of Manziel vs Cleveland, the the verdict is in and Manziel has been sentenced guilty on all counts of being a 1st degree bust. He will appeal the sentence in training camp, but the odds against him are almost Tebowesque at this point. If he's cut loose Manziel will end up in Buffalo. I know this in my bones.
John from Riverside Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 The way I look at it is EJ Manuel is given a completely clean slate..... - He no longer is "the chosen one" even though he was drafted in the first round - His past performance is written off....both good and bad....because the coaching has changed....... - His offensive line was horrible - NOBODY played well at QB last year Lets just see.....its a prove it year for EJ Manuel and everyone knows that. He is gonna have to beat out a veteran guy....you just KNOW that Whaley is gonna bring in a veteran guy.
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 If he's cut loose Manziel will end up in Buffalo. I know this in my bones. lets hope your bones are lying to you!!!
John from Riverside Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 If he's cut loose Manziel will end up in Buffalo. I know this in my bones. Id rather have Hoyer
Augie Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 I think any objective observer of EJ would agree that while the evidence against is compelling, the jury is still out on whether he has what it takes to become a quality NFL QB. "You never know" is a way of saying we really don't know for sure yet, but the odds aren't great. While I agree and I hope for the best, sometimes you just don't have a good gut feeling. That's the case for me here. I've been watching EJ since his FSU days, and there just seems to be something missing (like consistent accuracy). I hope I'm wrong. Nice young man who's hard working and easy to like.
BillsVet Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 I think any objective observer of EJ would agree that while the evidence against is compelling, the jury is still out on whether he has what it takes to become a quality NFL QB. "You never know" is a way of saying we really don't know for sure yet, but the odds aren't great. Objective is a concept that remains elusive because any discussion the QB isn't playing well is invariably greeted with a crescendo of "hater" rhetoric No one wants EJ to fail. It's simply looking, based on objective evidence, that he's not going to be a good enough NFL QB to get this team in the playoffs, never mind advancing in the post-season. I don't need to see a player completely bottom out before one can reasonably conclude they'll succeed. For some that point is earlier than others, although there is a propensity to declare someone a bust.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 In the Pats' case, prior to last year, the QB picks were value picks and to try and flip them for a higher pick. And none of them have panned out as starting QB's, although Cassel, a 7th rounder, netted them a 2nd rounder. So while they've allocated more resources to QB, they've fared no better and got lucky with Brady. Hey Doc. Agree for sure the Pats got lucky with Brady. "One Mo Lewis hit away from the unemployment line". But I think you're missing something on the Pat's draft strategy. They already have a big fish. They need a competent 2nd fish. They have an organizational strategy to keep the pond stocked. It also improves their chance to "get lucky" again. It looks like this: 1) look for a value pick at QB. If there's a guy they like who falls to where they have him, they pull the trigger. Overall, they seem to like to alternate high round pick/low round pick but that changes to suit their perceived value. 2) compare the new guppy to the established 2nd fish. If he's better, kick the established 2nd fish to the curb. Get a pick for him if you can (Mallett) 3) if the 2nd fish winds up with significant playing time, compare to Big Fish. If he's not as good (Cassell) Jackpot - flip him for picks. 4) rinse and repeat The key point is that they don't keep a 2nd or 3rd string guy on the roster for years (Tuel). Either he shows significant signs of development, or back he goes into the pond, Next!
negativo Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 While I agree and I hope for the best, sometimes you just don't have a good gut feeling. That's the case for me here. I've been watching EJ since his FSU days, and there just seems to be something missing (like consistent accuracy). I hope I'm wrong. Nice young man who's hard working and easy to like. I feel ya, bro. Total agreement. I hope he proves us both wrong, but I think his timid nature causes the inaccuracy and inconsistency and I'm not sure that can be cured. One of those kids who can look great in practice, combines and interviews but lacks the intestinal fortitude to perform on gameday at the NFL level. Still, as Monos said...you never know. Maybe somehow the light goes on, the fear subsides and he sticks it to all of us doubters.
GunnerBill Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 I genuinely felt more positive about EJ than most coming out of year 1. I thought he played well in the season opener at Chicago too but it was downhill from there. He was below average against the Dolphins, poor against the Chargers and awful at Houston. I could not argue with Marrone's decision to bench him at that point. I said here in the shoutbox at the end of that game - "that is a performance that can get a guy benched." The chance that the light turns on and things switch around with different and hopefully better coaching is really based on the kid's attitude and work eithic. If they can simplify it for him I have no doubt in his desire to succeed. But to follow Monos' sentiment and the sentiment of others on here now.... the odds are against EJ becoming a top 20 Quarterback right now, let alone top 10.
Lurker Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 http://www.buffalobills.com/news/article-1/Personnel-dept-committed-to-solving-QB-spot/d221c866-83db-4e25-a33b-a9381ca090dd You've got a great future as a headline writer, young man...
Doc Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 Hey Doc. Agree for sure the Pats got lucky with Brady. "One Mo Lewis hit away from the unemployment line". But I think you're missing something on the Pat's draft strategy. They already have a big fish. They need a competent 2nd fish. They have an organizational strategy to keep the pond stocked. It also improves their chance to "get lucky" again. It looks like this: 1) look for a value pick at QB. If there's a guy they like who falls to where they have him, they pull the trigger. Overall, they seem to like to alternate high round pick/low round pick but that changes to suit their perceived value. 2) compare the new guppy to the established 2nd fish. If he's better, kick the established 2nd fish to the curb. Get a pick for him if you can (Mallett) 3) if the 2nd fish winds up with significant playing time, compare to Big Fish. If he's not as good (Cassell) Jackpot - flip him for picks. 4) rinse and repeat The key point is that they don't keep a 2nd or 3rd string guy on the roster for years (Tuel). Either he shows significant signs of development, or back he goes into the pond, Next! The Pats have had the luxury of having Brady, who has been both good and durable for them. So they've tried to use the draft to find a value QB/someone they can develop and then trade. So far they've done it successfully with Cassel, but that's only because he was handed the keys to a Ferrari and trade him to their former GM's team. Mallett was a huge loss, being a 3rd rounder and likely only netting a 7th rounder in trade. But they've kept most of their backups on the roster for at least 3 years, and that includes guys like Rohan Davey, Brian Hoyer, and the aforementioned Cassell and Mallett. So while I understand your strategy of drafting a QB, they haven't been successful either and aren't a good example, especially when it comes to finding another franchise QB or even a good backup. Heck, I don't know of a good example since finding a franchise QB is tough.
BuffaloHokie13 Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 The Pats have had the luxury of having Brady, who has been both good and durable for them. So they've tried to use the draft to find a value QB/someone they can develop and then trade. So far they've done it successfully with Cassel, but that's only because he was handed the keys to a Ferrari and trade him to their former GM's team. Mallett was a huge loss, being a 3rd rounder and likely only netting a 7th rounder in trade. But they've kept most of their backups on the roster for at least 3 years, and that includes guys like Rohan Davey, Brian Hoyer, and the aforementioned Cassell and Mallett. So while I understand your strategy of drafting a QB, they haven't been successful either and aren't a good example, especially when it comes to finding another franchise QB or even a good backup. Heck, I don't know of a good example since finding a franchise QB is tough. The only two really good situations that come to mind are Indianapolis moving from Manning to Luck and Green Bay moving from Favre to Rodgers, and neither really fished a lot in the proverbial QB pond. Both had the luxury of a franchise guy who was extremely durable while they went about their business. I still think letting Rodgers sit on the bench a couple years and immerse himself in the playbook made a huge difference compared to throwing him straight in the fire
Thrivefourfive Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 If they bring in an Orton type of "fading" veteran qb rather than a younger qb, such as Foles, Bradford or Sanchez, then you will get a better feel for their real stance on EJ. Do you feel that EJ should start over any of these four QBs?
Doc Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 The only two really good situations that come to mind are Indianapolis moving from Manning to Luck and Green Bay moving from Favre to Rodgers, and neither really fished a lot in the proverbial QB pond. Both had the luxury of a franchise guy who was extremely durable while they went about their business. I still think letting Rodgers sit on the bench a couple years and immerse himself in the playbook made a huge difference compared to throwing him straight in the fire The Colts going from 1 HOF'er to another HOF'er is amazing. Although some say they tanked purposely to get both. And Green Bay got lucky that Rodgers lasted as long as he did.
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 If he's cut loose Manziel will end up in Buffalo. I know this in my bones. Sphere o' Beer you got ignorant bones The Pats have had the luxury of having Brady, who has been both good and durable for them. So they've tried to use the draft to find a value QB/someone they can develop and then trade. So far they've done it successfully with Cassel, but that's only because he was handed the keys to a Ferrari and trade him to their former GM's team. Mallett was a huge loss, being a 3rd rounder and likely only netting a 7th rounder in trade. But they've kept most of their backups on the roster for at least 3 years, and that includes guys like Rohan Davey, Brian Hoyer, and the aforementioned Cassell and Mallett. So while I understand your strategy of drafting a QB, they haven't been successful either and aren't a good example, especially when it comes to finding another franchise QB or even a good backup. Heck, I don't know of a good example since finding a franchise QB is tough. I will call "Uncle" on this one, Doc. Ordinarily I'd go review my recollections against the Patriots roster for the last 15 years but while I like doing that kind of stuff, I'd rather go up close and personal with a dog park trash can than the last 15 years of the Patriots. No joke. Green Bay: Favre on roster, drafted Rodgers San Diego: Brees on roster, drafted Rivers Indy: Manning on roster (injured), drafted Luck ?? (uncertain) San Fran: Alex Smith on roster, drafted Kaepernick ?? (Smith was an annointed Bust at one point, and it's a bit unclear what Kaep is at this point) (in the past) Montana on roster, acquired Steve Young.
JohnC Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 Do you feel that EJ should start over any of these four QBs? You have a competition and see who earns the right to take the snaps. Pre-determining who should be the starter is a foolish way to approach the qb issue. Make no mistake about the current situation. The front office is going to bring in another qb candidate not because EJ has been impressive but because he has been less than impressive.
Beerball Posted January 24, 2015 Author Posted January 24, 2015 Sphere o' Beer you got ignorant bones My bones don't like it any more than my brain does, but, it's gonna happen.
Buffalo Barbarian Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 We’re going to bring guys in to compete with EJ (Manuel) and Jeff Tuel and see what happens.” nuf said (EJ detractors) That's what we should do
RuntheDamnBall Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 The interfering owner has no credibility in assessing players. He was the one who forced the drafting of Manziel. There is no doubt that Manziel had a very troubled year on and off the field. But making a conclusive judgment on him based on his rocky rookie play and off the field juvenile behavior would be foolish. Some rookies very much struggle with their transition to the pro ranks from college. Others make the transition very quickly. Kujo and Richardson were both overwhelmed in their rookie years. I'm certainly not going to give up on them so quickly. I'm far from being a Manziel fan. However, I thought he would be an intriguing prospect who should have been taken in the second round. My point is that it is way to early to make a determination after one year. oh, come on. There were plenty of observers who said stay away from this kid, he has crippling maturity issues despite his exciting game and college success. It isn't just that he was immature or struggling with the adjustment. He has always been this way. The new thing is that he showed even less dedication to football this year once he got his money phone. His only success was in garbage time. The rest of the time he just looked like garbage. The fact that there are people who will defend this kid with next to no work ethic, then pile on EJ in the same sentence is lunacy. Despite the hate around here, one of them has actually shown something in the NFL, and it wasn't Manziel. It wouldn't be the first time that the grass looked greener for no reason at all on TSW. That said, does EJ have a lot to prove? Hell, yeah, he does. How about we let him see if he can prove it, and end the maddening cycle of no QB development or consistency on this team? I'm all for having other good options and young competition. I see no reason to bring in a flashy bust or another veteran playing out the string.
Nanker Posted January 24, 2015 Posted January 24, 2015 Serious question - what Bills fan wouldn't want to see EJ blossom and become truly a franchise QB? I think there are some here that truly do not wish him well, and that's hard for me to understand.
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