zow2 Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 People in general and on call-in shows keep saying the balls were a couple pounds lighter and how did Brady & officials not know? I'm pretty sure a football doesn't weigh few "lbs". The pressure in the footballs are 12.5-13.5 PSI. If the ball was pumped to 10.5 PSI i believe it would be 10-15% *lighter* than normal. I'm not sure any of us would feel the difference unless we were holding both footballs in our hands and comparing. I'm quite sure Tim Brady would know the difference. He knows every nuance of a football.
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 This isn't about whether the Patriots needed to cheat. This is only about whether they did cheat. That is what the defenders of the pats* need to hear over and over. I agree 100%. If you are that good and can run up the score [by cheating?] why do you need to take every opportunity to bend the rules? Yes their trickery probably helped defeat the Ravens. The Colts were outclassed after being down only 10 points at the half..
TheBillsWillRiseAgain Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 YET the guy who intercepted him could? Something that makes me think the league is just doing this to cause drama and pump up ratings for the Superbowl is that the Colts player who intercepted the ball posted on Twitter yesterday "Um, I don't know who said that but I didn't notice anything about the ball." I get the feeling that the league has known the Patriots have been doing this for a long time and only chose to make a big deal out of it right before the Superbowl.
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) People in general and on call-in shows keep saying the balls were a couple pounds lighter and how did Brady & officials not know? I'm pretty sure a football doesn't weigh few "lbs". The pressure in the footballs are 12.5-13.5 PSI. If the ball was pumped to 10.5 PSI i believe it would be 10-15% *lighter* than normal. I'm not sure any of us would feel the difference unless we were holding both footballs in our hands and comparing. I'm quite sure Tim Brady would know the difference. He knows every nuance of a football. I believe the balls "weigh" 14 to 16 ounces. Some non football people can tell a weight difference of 2 ounces There have been dozens of former QB's asked this question. The majority of then say that one can tell the difference and insist Brady is lying. These same balls are used by Brady to practice with on the sideline.. Where's the Heat of the moment there? Something that makes me think the league is just doing this to cause drama and pump up ratings for the Superbowl is that the Colts player who intercepted the ball posted on Twitter yesterday "Um, I don't know who said that but I didn't notice anything about the ball." I get the feeling that the league has known the Patriots have been doing this for a long time and only chose to make a big deal out of it right before the Superbowl. who knows it might actually turn people away. Who won't watch ? the average joe who has no interest. The people who might tune in otherwise - those who very much dislike the Cheatriots. IMO if the NFL wants increased viewership... bench Brady and then see how well the Cheatriots do, Edited January 23, 2015 by BillsFan-4-Ever
papazoid Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 People in general and on call-in shows keep saying the balls were a couple pounds lighter and how did Brady & officials not know? I'm pretty sure a football doesn't weigh few "lbs". The pressure in the footballs are 12.5-13.5 PSI. If the ball was pumped to 10.5 PSI i believe it would be 10-15% *lighter* than normal. I'm not sure any of us would feel the difference unless we were holding both footballs in our hands and comparing. I'm quite sure Tim Brady would know the difference. He knows every nuance of a football. a 2 PSI drop is "AIR" pressure (16% reduction) would have very very little effect on the weight (less than 1%). in fact, I doubt any scale on site would detect any difference in weight. PSI is much easier to detect a difference.
eball Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 The Statistically Impossible Patriots Fumble Record http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/?p=2932 Now THAT's what I'm talking about. Smoking gun found!
Augie Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 YET the guy who intercepted him could? Exactly! They look the same, but get a hold of the thing and it's immediately obvious? The biggest thing to me is the NFL has to counter the claim that the refs have to be stupid and lazy, or they are in on it. What's worse?
section122 Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 Something that makes me think the league is just doing this to cause drama and pump up ratings for the Superbowl is that the Colts player who intercepted the ball posted on Twitter yesterday "Um, I don't know who said that but I didn't notice anything about the ball." I get the feeling that the league has known the Patriots have been doing this for a long time and only chose to make a big deal out of it right before the Superbowl. It is very much like politics. Things are only a big deal when people make them a big deal. Could this have been going on for a long time? Of course! Until the media picks up and runs with it nobody cares. This is the perfect story to fill the first week before the super bowl. I have a feeling that next week will be all about the game itself and some sprinkling in of this situation. That said (and I am sure this has been mentioned repeatedly in a 96 page thread). This situation by itself isn't the biggest deal in the world. The fact that they did this and have a past history of doing this makes it a much bigger deal than this situation by itself. Think about a player like Raiola from Detroit. First time he did something dirty it was a fine and some people were actually defending what he did. Second time it was a suspension and nobody came to his defense. This has turned into a pattern. This has brought to light to the national scene what those of us who are fans of the AFC East already knew. The pats* are not and haven't been for a long time on "the up and up" or a model franchise. It has gone from us Bills fans hating them and thinking they are cheaters to fans of pretty much every team saying the same thing. That is why this is a big deal. The media darling Tom Brady and the almighty pats* might just be Lance Armstrong or Barry Bonds. Also Jackson wasn't the first to report it was the manager that he turned the ball over to after the interception.
zow2 Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 The Statistically Impossible Patriots Fumble Record http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/?p=2932 The Statistically Impossible Patriots Fumble Record http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/?p=2932 I posted this snipet yesterday as it was being tweeted around. This is the most hardcore evidence of cheating imo. It almost exonerates Brady since it lends to the theory that the deflated ball helps reduce fumbles, especially in bad weather. It helps the RB's grip the ball better. It may not help or harm Brady in any way to have the ball 2 PSI below the minimum levels. Reminds me of the Barry Bonds saga. Even though he was already a great player, at some point in his career he cheated to gain an additional edge. The Pats did this in 2007 and saw results and kept doing it. They play outdoors in typical Northeast weather...similar to Jets, Giants and Bills. Brady might be better than other QB's at ball security but they should not be this far above the other Northeast clubs.
NoSaint Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) This isn't about whether the Patriots needed to cheat. This is only about whether they did cheat. That is what the defenders of the pats* need to hear over and over. The sidebar comments from former players also struck me as very damning. Jerome Bettis: "I'm so disappointed because I thought this was a perfect opportunity for Tom Brady to go and say 'You know what? I made a mistake. I blew it. It's on me. I'll take the blame here, and this will go away.' He didn't do that ... I'm disappointed in you, Tom Brady." Brian Dawkins: "This is unbelievable. For you not to know what you touch every play? ... The equipment manager is being thrown under the bus now. Now he's the guy. Now he's the one responsible. He took it upon himself to doctor up the balls when nobody else knew about it? That hard [to believe]." Mark Brunell: "I did not believe what Tom had to say. Those balls were deflated. Somebody had to do it. I don't believe there's an equipment manager in the NFL that would, on his own initiative, deflate a ball without the starting QB's approval ... That football is our livelihood. If you don't feel good about throwing that ball? Your success on the football field can suffer from that." mark brunell started to cry on tv. im not sure hes the most level headed commentator here. we have brunell saying it would go 10 yards further, leinart saying he couldnt throw it as far. We have people saying they watched the today show and the ball was visibly sagging when deflated 2psi and others saying on mike and mike that greeny said he couldnt tell the difference holding the two and itd take a professional player to even attempt to. we have reports it was all D'Qwells interception and Dqwell saying he couldnt tell anything. We have nothing confirmed from the league on the number of balls or pressure difference, and some of you are acting like we have smoking gun proof that for 10+ years the team has done this every game to every ball, and its a HUGE advantage, and former players and coaches dont care when facing them again. no looks at whether individual players have gotten better/worse when they come and go from the team, and that this has created a super hero qb that dates back to 2001 twice as long as even the stats being touted suggest. And of course the "nfl wants to hide this, but they also had sneaky random public tests done and made it very clear that something was up instead of just warning the team pre-game" issues. that its against the rules so it must be MAJOR, while the nfl has over that time made the rules even looser, giving teams even more access to balls after the tests. but the distaste for the patriots and a media that most of the board doesnt trust on any other issue but this one hasnt gotten anyone wrapped up in a frenzy here. Edited January 23, 2015 by NoSaint
papazoid Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 this rises to the level of using a "juiced" ball or "corked" bat in MLB.
May Day 10 Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 but the distaste for the patriots and a media that most of the board doesnt trust on any other issue but this one hasnt gotten anyone wrapped up in a frenzy here.
TSOL Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 this rises to the level of using a "juiced" ball or "corked" bat in MLB. The NFL really should just take away the points scored with the non regulation equipment. Thats the decent thing to do. Go Colts!
TheBillsWillRiseAgain Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 I posted this snipet yesterday as it was being tweeted around. This is the most hardcore evidence of cheating imo. It almost exonerates Brady since it lends to the theory that the deflated ball helps reduce fumbles, especially in bad weather. It helps the RB's grip the ball better. It may not help or harm Brady in any way to have the ball 2 PSI below the minimum levels. Reminds me of the Barry Bonds saga. Even though he was already a great player, at some point in his career he cheated to gain an additional edge. The Pats did this in 2007 and saw results and kept doing it. They play outdoors in typical Northeast weather...similar to Jets, Giants and Bills. Brady might be better than other QB's at ball security but they should not be this far above the other Northeast clubs. That write-up is basically all anyone should need to see. It's as close to a smoking gun as you can get.
Augie Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 Again.... if it didn't help, they wouldn't do it. Again.... if it didn't help, they wouldn't do it. Also, the fumble stats a page or two back are very interesting. If you haven't clicked on the link, I recommend it.
TheBillsWillRiseAgain Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 Thanks. That's now my new cover photo on facebook.
dave mcbride Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) A couple of things: the Pats did in fact fumble three times vs. the Ravens, although one was on a kickoff and used a kicking ball. Also, can we please, please stop invoking Mark Brunell's claim about the ball traveling ten yards farther? He's a certified idiot, and my understanding is that it's not true in any case. http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2015/01/20/378581349/scientists-say-the-nfls-deflate-gate-isnt-all-hot-air http://www.nj.com/super-bowl/index.ssf/2015/01/scientists_explain_how_the_new_england_patriots_may_have_benefited_from_deflating_footballs.html http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2015/01/21/joe-theismann-steve-young-nfl-deflategate-patriots/22130249/ Edited January 23, 2015 by dave mcbride
rumblefish Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 is it just me or is the NFL becoming more and more like F Troop, when it comes to investigating ?
dave mcbride Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 (edited) Can't help but to tie Pats & Co* to history with favorite villains in other facets of life: Adelphia, Enron, HealthSouth, Parmalat & Worldcom, Clinton, DeLay, Silver, Spitzer, Weiner, etc. If you talk to anyone who's had dealings with these characters before the true stories finally came out you will see a striking parallel. Performance and results were always outside the norm, and at times, too good to be true. And in all the cases, you felt the need to cleanse the body after meeting with them. But there were no smoking guns early on, and there were enough believers buying into the cult of personality to excuse away the wrong doing, even though there were many signs pointing to the frauds. It was only after the frauds were exposed that people got outraged helped with 20/20 hindsight vision, especially in the press. But before that, there wasn't a shortage of cheerleaders. That's why I go back to the criminal enterprise theory. The deflated balls on their own may be a minor infraction. But it's another brick in the sociopath's wall. I think it's just a matter of time that history will prove it. Alright - I did a rudimentary check. The story is false. In the first Pats home game I checked for 2014 -- their home opener -- they fumbled once. They recovered it, however. http://www.pro-football-reference.com/boxscores/201409210nwe.htm. I haven't checked other games, but if the first one I check disconfirms the argument, well ... Also, it bears repeating that they fumbled 3 times against the Ravens. According to this guy's methods, they don't count as fumbles -- only lost ones do. Sometimes teams are lucky with regard to fumbles, and the Patriots appear to be consistently lucky at home when it comes to recovering fumbles. (Cue the tinfoil hat crowd, who can now argue that they cheat when recovering fumbles.) Edited January 23, 2015 by dave mcbride
DC Tom Posted January 23, 2015 Posted January 23, 2015 A couple of things: the Pats did in fact fumble three times vs. the Ravens, although one was on a kickoff and used a kicking ball. Also, can we please, please stop invoking Mark Brunell's claim about the ball traveling ten yards farther? He's a certified idiot, and my understanding is that it's not true in any case. http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2015/01/20/378581349/scientists-say-the-nfls-deflate-gate-isnt-all-hot-air http://www.nj.com/super-bowl/index.ssf/2015/01/scientists_explain_how_the_new_england_patriots_may_have_benefited_from_deflating_footballs.html http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2015/01/21/joe-theismann-steve-young-nfl-deflategate-patriots/22130249/ The only reason it would travel farther is because it allows the QB to get a better grip on the ball when he throws it. That probably matters more in bad conditions than good.
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